with the tutors rise and vegetable oil have suffered losses that they cannot cover themselves. it is necessary to create the conditions that will allow us to resume our relations with benny. meanwhile, a thousands gathered at the side of a former french military base in the army to celebrate the departure of the final french troops deployed in the country. last week, the prime minister of new share was joined at the raleigh by his counterparts from neighboring regina faso and molly, which also brought the curtain down on a french military precedence over the past 18 months. all right, before my goal is returned to our breaking news story, the russian defense ministry has commented on the ukrainian shelling of belgrade city center, which claimed the lives of 14 people including 2 children and left at least 108 civilians, wounded, accusing, see of, of committing a crime in an attempt to divert attention from failure at the front line. and in

order to provoke russia into retaliatory, it strikes officials also. so you can use the cluster bombs and they don't supply the weapons in the attack will bring you much more on this developing new story in about 30 minutes time. all right, and just stay with our t international next on the whistle. blowers done to reaku is fix that for segment the world's leading expert on medical serial killers. i think the, the we've told you in the past about the us department of veterans affairs. it's an enormous sprawling bureaucracy and is one of the most poorly run departments in the entire us government investigators. they are deal on a daily basis with things like fraud, investment, drug crimes and other white color issues. but imagine going to work one day and

learning that you're not needed to investigate these routine white color crimes. instead, you're needed to investigate a serial killer. and even worse, a medical serial killer assessed you a pass who works under color of helping patients as a medical professional, a doctor or a nurse. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 our next guest is that rare person who has seen the darkest part of the underbelly of society. ru sacrament is a renowned investigator specializing and tracking down medical serial killers and his in demand as a consultant on the subject all over the world. he's a former special agent in charge of the ne field office of the criminal investigations division in the us department of veterans affairs office of the inspector general,

where he was responsible for criminal investigations in 295 veterans affairs facilities. he's a licensed private investigator and is the president of the society of professional investigators. in addition to his professional credentials. he's the co author of the highly acclaimed book behind the murder curtain, special agent, bruce sacrament, hans doctors and nurses who kill our veterans, bruce sacrament. welcome to the show. we are so happy to have you as well. thank you very much. i'm actually honored to be here today while the pleasure is online. i've been looking forward to this for a long time. i have to tell you this conversation is, is going to be fascinating for me personally. there are probably fewer than a dozen people in the united states who have had a career focused on serial killers and even fewer who have focused on medical serial killers. before we get to that specialization, tell us a little bit about your career and about how you got started in investigations.

sure. well, um, i started investigations probably by watching too many colombo, you know, um, not seen a big, tough, dirty harry kind of guy. but i used to watch columbia and i so you know, i could do that. this guy is more brings in braun and i really like that. so i started out as an investigator with the us department of defense and i was investigating contract fraud and procurement for a line. and it was pretty interesting. and then jimmy carter way back when began offices of inspector general's in every federal agency. so every page of federal agency at that time and now just about every agency has an office of inspector general and most offices of inspector general all kind of torn to different directions. one is in the office of what it and one is in the office of

criminal investigations. i was responsible for the office of criminal investigations for the ne united states. and i had a tremendous smorgasbord if you will, of cases to pick and choose from. because hospitals well hospitalized big cities and any kind of crime that could occur in a big city could almost kind of happened in the hospital. you know, we had procurement for or contract for what we had drug diversion. think of all the narcotics that are in the hospital. i mean we have the most complex scientific equipment to inexpensive items like diapers and everything in between. and we have with very, very concerned about medical records about the security and medical records. so running the hospital is a very, very complex job, and unfortunately the has a big opportunity for some criminal activity. now what the v a,

i must preface my remarks by saying that the old oh well ring majority of the am for the most honest, hard working, dedicated compassion of people you ever want to meet? absolutely. yes, but that didn't said there is a very, very tiny percentage of people that will take advantage of the system. and unfortunately the victims on nations heroes and that's really terrible. so i was really on a, in 2 respects. i was on it to be in federal law enforcement. and i was honored to have a position that worked out for veterans that actually helped us secure safety and security and the best health possible for our nation's heroes. it was a wonderful, wonderful position to be. and you had

a long career at the department of veterans affairs. tell us about the case that made you an expert on medical serial killers. i have to assume that somebody doesn't just wake up one day and decide to start killing people. they operate on detected sometimes for many years and we're talking about doctors and nurses here. how did this all begin in that big case? well, you know, i'm working all these other cases that i just described. and all in one day, my phone rings, and i get a call from the cheapest psychiatry at the northwood long island v. a medical center. and she says, bruce, oh, you're not gonna believe this. but we have a doctor working here who spend time in prison for boys and gets co workers. and i'm looking at the phone and i'm from looking at my calendar. it says this april 1st is this like some kind of april fools, a joke or something. you know,

and she says, no, bruce, this is really true. now what? i didn't think in the united states of america, you could spend time in prison for poisoning people and come out and be a physician. so why i was wrong and natural it started the story of a dr. michael swain. know the michael swindle killed people, not only united states, he told people with the world. do you know when he was in medical school, john, when he was in medical school, he was known as double swine. go license to kill all my gosh, twice fellow students in medical school and then to the dean. and they said, you know, the, we don't think these guys, when bill should really be a physician and the dean said, what do you know your only students on the dean. i think he could be a doctor, but i think he needs more training. so let's keep him for about 6 months longer. right. next thing, you know,

he winds up in ohio state university and he's killing people. and he winds up being in m e n t, and he actually coins him. his co workers invited his co workers and he said, hey guys, you know, you work so hard at some donuts in the donuts and they all got sick that night and he called them up. he says, tell me, will you symptoms tell me everything that happens. he's revealing the excitement of poisoning people, not only when he actually put the boys in on these donuts, but hearing how they suffered. mm. and it turns out that the donuts were actually sprinkled with loss, and they called me saying that these in teams are not stupid. about 2 weeks later it comes in with some ice tea and they have the ice t test it. and it's loaded with awesome that wow, and the police did a fantastic job and he gets 3 years in jail for boys and his co. ready marcus, and then he comes out and he's a doctor again. it to be

a lot. it seems impossible. how can anybody pass a government background investigation and have your license? yeah, and have your license reinstated? yes. well, i'll tell you this, this guy. it's an incredible sociopath, you know, he will, he was an ex marine and he got out of prison. and he gave the store, he says, you know, i'm an ex marine, i got fine. i got an a bottle in the roll. but here's a piece of paper from the governor, restoring my civil rights. nobody checked it, nobody verified it. and the next thing, you know, the guy is a doctor again, this time out in the west coast. and it'd be a facility and he's doing well. he's actually engage to be a nurse. and then the story comes out and uh, everything turns terrible for him and his fiance and his fiance,

her name was kristen kenny does a beautiful, beautiful young lady. and she goes home to mom is he says, you know, mom, i really love this guy. swining go, but i can't live with them anymore after i heard what happened. you know, but when i was living with them i was getting all these headaches for some reason, headaches. but i, i feel better now and the next thing you now swipe, go shows up at the door. and he so charming the charms is way back into hawaii. and about 2 months later, she can't take it anymore again and she goes to the park. she takes out a gun and she blows her brains out. all my going. and can i go for that? can you will actually you can because even though she shot her sale and the family had the body cremated, they kept a lock of hair. and her head was loaded with austin. you know, manga was even poisoning his own fiancee. a lot of make a long story short,

he actually lot winds up in my neighborhood at the northwood long island, b a medical center and you know, something interesting. he was there on a residency any guess what, what particular medical field in psychiatry that he had to go on the front of the board of trying psychiatry. and can you this each and every one of them that he should be in the program. and he grad, incredible. and then that's when i got that phone call that he's under each i lives there. and i happened because one of my agents and i go down to visit him. now let me tell you this guy look like a movie. saw. just got off the golf course. we're on these ada saw sunglasses, you know, cells in john, if i didn't know better, i want to introduce them to my own daughter. yeah. right. the next the next marine doctor. right. you know, spending on nation zeros. i'd say come on and i says when i go join the family. wow

. if i didn't know that well. so he's given me the same bar withdrawal story, you know, and then when i saw it challenging him, he's not so charming. and he doesn't want to talk in the next thing, you know, he leaves the country where he's the country goose is in. bob blay ashbrook. when this is an awfully africa because it's such a shortage of physicians. there he's killing women and children and pregnant women . my god, and they have an arrest warrants, they him, but he returns the united states because he had to renew his passport before he went on yet to another country. and we arrested him, but not for murder. because we didn't have any evidence that he learned anybody at all. here we were sent him, but every federal ages, they re crime line to the government. he said, why or it's of the government? if you, why do a federal agent you're guilty of a felony?

that's right in 3 years in jail, full line to the government. so that gave us a window of opportunity, a window of 3 years. the trying to prove that he murdered any of our nation's heroes at the north port va medical center. and that's what started me on, on that particular journey. let me ask you to why is it so difficult to think for medical professionals to be able to spot a colleague who, who can kill in a hospital environment. medical professionals, of course, are supposed to 1st do no harm. is it, is that it, that they're supposed to be hillers, and not killers. so people generally don't suspect their colleagues of these terrible crimes. it will look if you are so inclined to commit a number is what perfection and what location might you choose? right? tape, you might choose a profession that kind of gives you the legal power of life and death over an

individual and what professions do we know how that, you know, you, you might want to take a profession where people take, you know, have dedicated themselves to saving lives so who is going to believe that in this wonderful universe of compassionate people who have dedicated themselves to saving lives, these going to be someone hiding in that group that's actually taking lives? it's almost impossible to believe. i mean, all your coworkers have dedicated themselves to saving people. you see, miracles performed almost every day in the hospital and to believe that somebody is intentionally murdering people. is very, very difficult. you know, it's very difficult for the fireman to believe that one of his co workers is actually starting fine. that's right. right. it's the same thing here. it's the

universe of such dedicated professional people that no one wants to bully. yeah, one of the, a coworker would be intentionally taking lots and i can understand that i could say we are speaking with an investigator and author, bruce sacrament, about his investigations, into medical serial killers. we have to take a short break, but you're not going to want to miss the 2nd half of this conversation. stay tuned . we'll be right back. 2 the known in vietnam as the american war, the vietnam war, lost its almost 2 decades and dragged in numerous countries. not any time between now and then. you don't see it now. why it's all on the empty

hundreds of thousands of american troops was sent to the country to back the south vietnamese on me. i got that not, but the american soldiers murdered resistors mercilessly burned down entire villages and spread dangerous chemicals and lee by all right, did the americans ever fully acknowledge what they did and on the vietnamese veterans ready to forgive? yes, yes, that's the way to the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. we are speaking with

renowned investigator and author, bruce sacrament, about his work tracking down medical serial killers, those medical professionals who become stealth murders. welcome back again, bruce. glad to have you. thank you, bruce to tell us a little bit about motivation, the average serial killer, when, when one thinks about john wayne gacy or gary allan ridge way or dentist reader is a sociopath or a psychopath. who becomes more and more bold, often even taunting the police. but that's not the case with medical serial killers . is it tell us about their motivation? what leads them to do it? you know, i'll tell you what i've seen over the years. um, not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but this is what i've witness. i would say the number one. the number one reason that i've seen is something called munchausen syndrome by proxy right now, much as and central. and what proxy is, is often displayed when

a mother will maybe intentionally harm a child and bring that child into the hospital to show the staff what a hearing dedicated outstanding parent they are and is trying to be so compassionate. please help my child and they want the staff to give them understanding and compassion. well, in some strange way, this is the same thing with medical c o kills. we just think of our medical serial killers. when you look at the evaluations. good. okay. nurses, okay. doctors, except when it comes to code in a color, i mean an emergency, a cold blue. and when you read the evaluations, you will see that they get an outstanding when it comes to code one of my medical serial killers. kristin gilbert, the doctors would say, you know, if i am calling, i will one kristin gill that there. she stopped barking orders at the young in turns was scared out of her mind. she case control. she's

a hero. she's outstanding. why? this is one of these people want because throughout the whole life they will kind of put aside and they didn't get the attention that they wanted. i do one never can sit. there was considered more zeros and heroes. now, son, and this is an opportunity for them to get the attention that they never had before and they don't care about the victims. their victims is just an end to the means. they care about the attention that comes to them and that i've seen throughout the world is perhaps the number one reason i'm not exclusively. some people likes wango and i just loved the power of life and death having a power to do over the summer. what incredible high for him, you know what i mean? incredible turned on that he could act like god that he had the power of life and death and in mexico. also calm. but there are a few other reasons. sometimes is

a case ongoing in texas. now, we're a doctor is just pissed off at management and his co workers and he says, you know, i'm the best doctor here. he's a fan, even copying it to me and you know what they did to me. they took away some of my privileges, they reduced my office, they cut my money back out, show them how so them are patients started going unexpectedly then the we always have one eye and they will come back to me. my god. yeah, pretty pretty. yeah. those are some of the most common reason that i've seen throughout the world mattresses. be able to walk 2 or 3 years ago. i entertain the idea of writing a book about serial killers. i, i've written 8 non non fiction books. i thought it would be kind of a fun departure and i especially wanted to talk about their motivation and what made them so bold before they were finally caught. so i wrote letters to 8 or 9

serial killers who were in prison, including some of the most famous names, many of them, including gary alan ridgeway the green river killer, the b t k killer son of sam tex watson from the manson family. they actually answered me, but their answers were all the same. they said they found jesus in prison, jesus had forgiven them. jesus was, was saving their lives, they were living their lives for jesus, etc, etc. ridgeway even sent me. it was a big package. it had 50 religious pamphlets in it, and he asked me to distribute these pamphlets around my neighborhood. so of course i true, i threw them away. but my image, your conclusion was that, that there manipulative behavior continues in prison all these years later that, that this manipulative personality is what keeps them going. they think it's going

to get them something to, at least profess to be christian, for example. so my question is, is that also common among the serial killers once they've been caught? and if it is, how are they able to, to cover it up for so long as they build their medical careers as well, i guess it sort of a 2 part question. the 1st part about being uh once, once they are incarcerated. well, many of them will decline to speed because there are additional murders out there. god. right. and they tried and convicted and even received the death penalty depending on wherever it occurred. so they're not going to do anything else, right? because when we suspect these medical serial killers are killing 36, the a 100 people often we don't have the proof on hand that they killed that many people

. right? you know, we have narrow it down to the very, very best cases that there are and pursue those cases. but they know they know there are other victims out there. and we should be able to prove yet another bit them, especially with some believe that they gave us, they could be retry, prosecuted and possibly even executed. so they're not going to say anything at all about that. all right, and you know it's something interesting because when the whistle blow was in the case of chris and gilbert, this is a real example of whistle blowers fan, had floyd backgrounds and you know, um some of them had a substance abuse problems. they had other personal problems and they knew this was gonna all come out. but they had incredible coverage to comfortable us and tell us what had happened. well, what do you think happened after the trial?

so kristin gilbert, who were your legs killed about 30 or by nations heroes at north hampton, the medical center in massachusetts? uh, she goes to trial and she's found guilty and the whistle blows were just tremendous . we wouldn't have known of that if it wasn't for themselves. so when they were turned to work, do you think that the agree it is he will so wish? oh no. just the opposite. uh, just the opposite because you'd say what the hell do you do us now when people drive by the hospital, they don't say call this the hospital, let's say if my dad, that's the hospital. it does wonderful science. no. be think that's the hospital with the medical serial killer work. and why did you have to do that? you room for all of us? you room the reputation not. thank you for getting rid of the murder that they never, ever. all they heard was criticism from the co workers. why did you call the inspect

the general? why did you fully bring the police in here? why did you bring all of his bad publicity to us while genetically the credible? bruce, tell us where people can learn more about the work that you do and about your book . a sure, well the website is same as the name of the look behind the myrtle car dot com. it details all the stories of medical serial killers inside the va that i personally investigated, including doctors, wine, go, and christine gilbert and others, including a, a physician in albany that old in medical records to put the veterans into research studies. they should have never been ended and they were murdered. i mean, they're really some incredible stories in that book. and also, you know, there's a, there's a television show out this cool. um. was it called various gary people?

yes, thank you very scary. p h l one, and it has 2 levels. ons wind go yes, but i like to find people to um, to read the book, to go to the website, to email me. i get emails all the time from veterans and non veterans and people who have been victimized by this. and, you know, and so one thing we have to mention here is a whole human side to this john, you know, we talk about the statistics in the message, but these are human beings we're talking about but for the family isn't sewage power show. so could you imagine to any, if i, if i rang your doorbell one day, and i said, excuse me, sir, you know, my name is bruce saffron. and i'm from the v a. and we have reason to believe that your father's death was of a suspicious nature. can i go to the cemetery and dw nadia runs? yes. and could you imagine your visit like that?

could you imagine sitting in a court room and hearing all this evidence of how your father was murdered at a v, a hospital after he spent his entire life? yeah, same thing, america reads right well with terry. the movie, the hassle. imagine the human side is, is how you would feel. and sometimes when we talk about this to 6, how many murders and the techniques and all that, we forget to mention the human side of the families and the families are always being just amazing for me. just fantastic people. fantastic. well, thank you so much for spending this time with us. this was fascinating and we were very happy to have you. so i wanna thank bruce for joining us and for sharing his fascinating experiences. and thanks to our viewers for watching the author, bret easton, ellis, one said, quote, it strikes me profoundly that the world is more often than not a bad and cool place on quote. in many cases, i'm sorry to say that's true,

but we're fortunate to have people like bruce hackman out there doing the right thing. i'm john kerry. aku thanks for watching the whistle blowers until next time . 2 2 the hi, i'm acceptable and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. what could i please or do you have the state department c, i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time,

but again, it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way inside. the breaking news on our t is 14 civilians, including 2 children, are killed and a ukrainian attack on the russian city of belgrade. the russian defense ministry says this latest across border selling is a distraction from cabs, failures on the battlefield. the survey and pro western opposition holds a raleigh in belgrade. protesters are calling for the results of the parliamentary election, one by the incumbent, present as party to be an old disturbing images from the southern gaza as the palestinian red crescent posts footage of its staff evacuating the injured from the side of yet another is rarely strike on pon eunice also.