of the cause of the god that is to become a on inhabited will that to stop warning from the un as to raises all 9 to buy and turn 8 fails to reach those the needs of the count to genocide, accusations of the international court of justice as it sees around the world report of the exec pressure on propose, this is to take it side off of more than 2 decades to you. as soon as you put those in, there are maybe coming through a series of deadly about that are packed by god. besides to despond, the us that i'm terrorism. coalition orthodox christians celebrate christmas with one of the most popular services hosted by russia's 3 up to 8 people

. is that pretty much the those are the headlines. this ibex on solid working capital they pressing issue on was upon. i will be back of the, to the, out the welcome to was a part of it just reading and a hunger for knowledge. how little things perceived as purchase and homeworks of procedures paving the way to a higher consciousness. but what if i told you that one of history's most of the tory is dictate is joseph solid as both developed worshipper and the highest

priests of his own library? this is where he died surrounded by books and manuscripts, rather than his loved ones. how did stones love of books informed his ruling style of to discuss it. i'm now enjoyed by geoffrey roberts managers, professor of history at the university college cork, an officer of sullens library, a dictator and his books. professor roberts, it's great to talk to you in person this time. thank you very much for your time and thank you for an invitation. now your books style is library ssl to explore the intellectual life biography and i would say psychology of joseph stalin, whom you describe as the 20th century, most self consciously intellectual dictator. and i think it's a somewhat controversial undertaking in this day and age because in order to understand the evil one needs to engage for that rather than dismissed it and condemn it out of hand. why did you decide to do it at this point of time?

well, what would you come? i'm the most important thing because sounds about my book in the past on the 1st that he was an intellectual. he was a man, man of ideas as well as action he believed in the transformative power. while it is not just in terms of changing people's consciousness, maintenance of tracking human nature and as a couple of months as the socialist. you know, he was committed not just to the transformation of human societies, but the transformation of people including himself so. so in his engagement with books with reading, move up with ideas was a very, was a very profound you guys by the you, comp, i'm sandstone as a person. also because time it has a political act con, understand all the bad things that we associate with, with a lift style is brutal dictatorship of the soviet union without understanding him as an intellectual. and i wrote this book because this seemed to me that this, the source piece is library and the books he read it and how we read them,

how we mocked them. it is the most amazing, so it's the most intimate source, the most spontaneous fulfills the most revealing sol, so i feel like it's an expiration of stones, intellectual life is life as a reader. but it's also an ex relation of installing as a political actor. he also describe this uh t shaped table in a, in the room where he died. as fact, with books manuscripts he owed because his personal library was very, very expensive. i wonder if looking at him through these lines has, has changed your own opinion of him as a personality or perhaps a may or your understanding you'll, if he's it will make you a little bit more new ones. yeah, absolutely. i took, the reason i wrote this book actually was okay, i've written a number of books about style and they'll connect deeply strongly by wanting to write a wide range and book about stanley. but didn't really want to what, right i,

i by oversee. so the seem to be an opportunity to see other kind of intellectual pull tre, intellectual box using this particular. so what was the actual but also very, very personal in the, in the various chain way. sure. yeah, but, but, but i went to was, i went to, i wrote wide ranging, but the textbook was i haven't really fully come to terms with colleagues as a person though i see as, as a political actor. and so that's why i wrote this particular book and yeah, it was, it was a journey of, of discomfort as far as i was concerned, i suppose the most important thing i just got put on that journey. was that okay? yes. you know, style name wasn't until the actual amount of ideas a great read the. he was a communist, he was a marxist. right. but the thing our discounts i didn't really understand before was the, he was a feeling intellectual for the motional that some power always audiology and politics. right. and it's the emotionality, the emotional falls off. he's audiology these postings,

which enabled him to actually rule in the particularly falling to pick tutorial, whether you could do something emotionality of style and as a, as a dictator. and in such a that, that what that was the crucial revelation for me. but i also have a point which i'd like to mention it because i'm actually in the book is that, you know, you might say, well, okay, so he was a feeling emotional, intellectual, where did that emotionality come from? and he asked that question, i think is that it coming from stallings early christian opry, before starting mostly developed month safety. was that the, the christian? and i think that there's a transmission of stanley's emotional really just you haven't really deals to feed into his mouth as a communist. the and socialist. yeah, well i mean, many scholars before, you know that, that the, this a server and attitude towards march says, and then the socialism was simply, you know, another form of religion for many of the leaders of his time. many bolsheviks at

least now. uh you, you mentioned the many or stalins books contain extensive markings which to quote to you reveal that he valued ideas as much as power. and that he was a true believer in the strength of the word. and it reminds me of the opening verses of the bible in the beginning was the worth, which could also be translated as in the beginning was longer as the meaning making capacity. and i think you already partially answered my question, but i want to oppose it. and on the last, do you think there was something religious or newman that's about the way style is related to not just the wards but know which ignore this. yeah. and just the truth of the point, you might be the last go. those have noticed the connection between your stallings religious upbringing, ninety's boxes. i think that's true, but i think the thing about a library is, is that you can actually see that in the source is on the pages you can see solving spelling, stick feet, savings. yeah. up,

i suppose the other thing is to kind of on a geologically stalling definitively, did you break with pieces? were they just operating? yeah, stalling. didn't see. okay. is that the magic marxist? he believed in the intrinsic any tunnel truth of marxism. but that wasn't for him. a mattress size, it was a mattress. what do you consider to be thoughts so scientific of absorbs of ation. yeah. so you know that there's an emotional connection between just on is the question. installing this as a communist, but at the intellectual crew cab, uh, connection is much less. it is much more tenuous. now, as you write in your book, like all the bullshit of glitter style and believe that the reading could help transform no just people's ideas and consciousness, but humor nature itself. he saw riders ends as a engineers of the human soul, which is the subject you have dedicated a separate chapter in,

in your book. and when somebody is so eager to transform the human nature or the meg, the human. so i think there's usually something that they cannot accept as this and most likely in themselves. what do you think makes dolling so banned on re making their human so and i'm asking, here are not the you. i'm asking you not as a historian, but it actually is a human being. does it say very intimate personal notation. does it look to you as a really interesting question of a postal question? i'm not going to give you a personal so old about should lead us were intellectuals, right. all of them believe in reading engagement body is all of them had big libraries so strongly wasn't unique in that respect. okay. yeah, i guess this question about transform submission stuff. yeah, we got up to why was the cost of what was he and the both is constantly grosse, be in that direction and they're doing that because to their ideas that he tokens,

they genuinely kind of like believe that this transformation of human nature. but they're seeking, it's possible, of course, they don't the truth because that's one of the fundamental stages of the soviet project of solving social, the site you get to actually create that utopia that they're striving for. now, personally, i can understand that because i will see you type in and i do this myself as a young man, so i understand that strong thing. and i also understand, you know, the personal emotional thing. if you're trying to cross something which you can't quite get there and you, you understand, you know, the difficulty is you have to so what that, so skepticism about it. so i have, so there's a little personal insight into this book as well. that goes to the chemist between the install is this don remind to nadia is giving main the utopian, he was threat across the for this idea of uh our uh, protective team from belle. it's you to some extent, and i'm also an avid student of psychology. and then psychology,

idealization mental ization of rationalization in a tendency to make things abstract. they are considered to be a typical psychological defense is. when do you don't want to connect with the, you know, of human nature in yourself when it seems to, you saw, you know, imperfect or disdainful that you would rather think about something, you know, shiny down the down the line and then address it in yourself. yeah, i kind of agree with that, but let's don't forget the point i'm making the about the emotional basis of storage police. so these audiology a politics list also it and also um let's do it on the site. the importance of kind of the rational for that this has things so it easy you believe this idea is an error resto grounds, the rent miracle brown is police? no, i'm saying he's right, but i don't know how to rush the directionality. oh, it's boxes. and so, you know, it is like, it's a combination of this combination of character, personality and emotionality. combination of very typical stuffs,

human psychological tribes. this up was look at the, are a function of these rationalist audiology and politics as well. can i ask you something because you are, you mentioned your book that you see him as what we would now call emotional intelligence. you don't believe that he's feelings or, you know, sensing abilities are split off from he's coughing, gift capacity. and i wonder if you've been able to track not only he's emotional reading of others, but he's own authentic feelings or maybe even suffering in those uh, you know, uh, markings on the sides of the books. but i tried to do that as best i county in the book, but in the sense it's impossible for me to actually summarize the actually here. it basically was the this inklings in yourself when you felt ok. i think this is a style in writing as a human being rather than as a great leader. he imagines himself to be and terms of these library. yeah,

that's the whole point of it. yeah, the whole point stories library has his private reading. yes, he's personal. well yes it is. he would be read sometime later. yeah. well i think that's probably true. maybe towards the end of his life. yes. yeah. he must have been aware that he will become the object of the attention of people like video. rather research is just like many be coming in his ear, so i thought no, no but, but no, did the actual quality of these markings. it's very spontaneous, it's very, it's very, very well for very well. thank you. that's absolutely correct. there is an element of performance here, but it's a very, very simple in the context with of a confidential context with style in you speak your right to your editor. yeah. then it is much, much more of a performance foot 4 foot for the opposite of obviously he's putting on the chart. that's not the case when the talking about his personal event that's, that's the interest. that's the power of the soul. well, i try to do if i try to,

you know, tell you this to show showed read how this works for now we have to take a very short break. we will get back to discussing it in a short time. thank you very much. the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also absurd. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to help me real nice to have very close propaganda. you know a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask

a better. the answer is we'll be glad to strike so much. i just don't know we, we would have to shop before dismissing 9 in his bedroom to theater when you, if you have to put a really special aggressive are swap of beach and control them to pretty crossman. since i knew it's showing up, i just sent it to you, for example, to go on just one for lucy spits that is nice with them for pretty to so double them. sure. it's good for us to see on the do you feel like i have any more he wouldn't have got the going. it's pretty, pretty slim. but i think i've got the idea. no refresher the goes items the

to saw. i'm not, i'm no, i live at the are you leaving to on talk go we jake uh the the the the, the function the

the back to the parts van geoffrey roberts america is professor of history university college. of course, i'm also saelens library, a dictator and his books. professor roberts, in your book, you suggest the selling div north re quote from the reading the works of his arch avenue as likely on trust. keisha was also very much interested in the history of desires times which soviet propaganda, the time official soviet propaganda fully dismissed. and in order to engage with that kind of material, you consider a wrong or adversarial one needs to have a degree of uh, flexibility versa, till it until it runs,

which is not how styling is remember. what do you think compelled him to engage with the other? do you think it was primarily his own personal drive or perhaps the commands of the office? i'm not sure that i todd used to live tolerance in relation to scotland, but certainly flexibility. okay. and the so it's the opposite of us a bit so invested to that the yeah. in the context of him being adult much at most . yeah. yeah. so it wasn't a big surprise to me when i discover the stone as an intellectual retina. yeah, he was a learning intellectual. that's not such, you know, such a big, big, a big surprise to what did surprise me was how much inc, based with his political opponents and how much he, he loved the from his political, political opponents. yeah. okay. so he was a marxist that he believed the marxism of his reading was mostly stuff, obviously stuff, comedy, stuff,

right. but. but he was prepared to read anything of that and then he won. right. and he was prepared to learn from tell you, taught this many. i'm not and i'm the guy still using the book is, is the study is his prostate trust the time was much more in the image of trotsky. it as an intellectual. yup. for quite a long time. let me quote with what the trust key wrote about style. and he describes him as a gift to the risk practicality, a strong well and persistence in carrying out his aims, but also devoid of creative imagination, restricted in his learning methods and political horizons, and stubbornly empirical in his mind and trust. he also rode the styling always seemed to it's a human waste, as a man who was destined to play 2nd or 3rd fiddle on him. playing 1st was not due to style and so who talents, but rather be backsliding of the system. i wonder if you detected any sort of intellectual inferiority on the part of style and don't you think he was trying to

compensate for something that he saw in trotsky, but locked in himself? no, no, i don't see that. so it's all he, most of probably confident as an intellectual. he was his own mind. he's on the box . it's just, you know, he's autonomy as a person, as a political outcomes. not georgie, came from, we've been, is itself as an end to an intellectual. if you didn't call 12 to any what that means, no need to present themselves as being the names of people who got the the best through the lens. but you did, it was a photo of lending, but, but he, yeah, he was in the prison of lending and changing his personality. acosta, i think clearly demonstrates that things are with the bed. so yeah, but, but trust is denigration of stallings intellectual. very, very influential feeling the select shaped perceptions are starting from many, many, many decays now. yep. oh yeah. especially perhaps in the west. 5th across. absolutely . but, but that, that perceptions change even in the less than probably

a function of the fact we felt the collapse, the sort of hearing and the opening up the rush, all cause historians. and i was a much, much more materials. but you know, to work with, and this is your point is a completely different picture. not just of stalling, but how sort of system from the one you can get from trophy. and one of the discoveries of the, the post soviet period in the all cars has the, the extent to which time it was made to the actual, unintended guy, simple ideas. and mike book is, is part of that, that body of what, but of course i have a particular and the sustain focus on strong things to actual take in relation to his life as a reader and his and his personal library. as before, now extends access to for in books was limited, not only because of the logistics, but also because he didn't know any other language other than russian in georgia. and yes, you point out that starting had the high regard and diligence interest for he's political contemporaries, like winston churchill or uh, franklin delano it was

a what do you think that the interest was reciprocated? dressing they, they saw a nickel in him as he saw in them. oh boy, absolutely. i mean one of my other specialities is that you as you are, you must know was the stone is will lead to stalling during the 2nd most floor? i'm particularly the relationship between solving churchill and original. yeah. and this does note the um, the great respect that the rules of the contractual has the stone include respect for stallings no much you know, no, they do. but let's see. and the profundity of, uh oh, obviously thinking what i found fascinating is that style in started the american constitution. and i think it was almost a known both in russian. and the west was that he was a, he presided over and was very much engaged in the works of the, of the soviet constitutional commission that was tasked with drafting b. so be as constitutional, 1936 that's at least in writing attempted to give uh or

a to encourage more active grass roots. political participation in the constitution was passed barely a year before the great terrors which some millions of people to the depths or to the, to the glove. and one thing that i, as a russian cannot understand, is this either secrecy between putting so much time and effort into starting have various societies for government. because i think that was his key interest in all . but he is a reading pursuits. i'm here reverting so quickly so ruthlessly to the tyranny of the iron hand. how do you understand that? you know the patience with books and toto in patients with the imperfections of, of life and the governing stories overwriting the bro to you was to defend socialism. defend the revolution from his hand. them he signed to do whatever he could to contribute to socialism, and that he needs for pattern guides and all kinds of projects, activities,

which he saw a suffering the goals, including your that link, you know, this new constitution on the $36.00 constitutional kinds kinds of other things but, but in the end, you know, he was prepared to do whatever was necessary to play, was standing there a resolution at the, at the cost of the huge cost of his society and his people. absolutely. because yeah, apps because he was a utopia. yeah. he believe this action was necessary. believe he said that money funds, this actually is forced upon us by enemies. right? if we don't do this out and it is all going to crosses that, that is the less than history. it's. dawn is a read it. ok. it's times of boxes, most of them was a big thing. police favorite topic was history and the on the list especially. yeah, you too, you mentioned the constitution. i was very surprised about stallings interest in constitutional loan and probably a few minutes if you integrated. it's an interest,

it seems to come when the discussing the new saw the constitution. he thought he's of, he's on research, there's not really very important point. it's not always doctors on research, always talk is on really purpose of representing the display that i see here. or if we perceive is that people so much f for the interest in researching those patterns, you know, a constitutional, uh, governing, etc. but he doesn't have the strength of the capacity, the patients to put it into practice. because if you want to defend the revolution, you can defend it by your actions, you know, putting those ideas into practice and materialize and realizing them. but it's almost like he pursuits them, and them she drops and reverts to the old methods that he's defending against. yeah . well i think he has them as far as he can. but as i said, you know, he, he's prepared to do what i say. but the kind of argument you've made, it's kind of argument of many people invite it in relation to style. it was just the, the disjunction between his theory and his practice time, you know, you know,

in this the limitations the limitations. okay, of him. so as tons of intellectual, if i single, essentially i to a very serious read installing, sometimes it can be quite profound and certainly that very effective. but in the end, no piece of live it's, it's, it's, it's the human being or the geology policy. so deeply full of drugs is political practice is usually kind of problem ethics. the reason you said because of the debate, the impact of these. so if he's your disorder real on society, i don't own i'm on millions of people, folks. i'm not trying to cover anything of the month of yet for any points on the status. let's go to a force. here's in height. i think tight and sees books and for a whole book. i mean, gauging with the questions your raising about strong is dick to, to lower real. i'm trying to reply to some explanation, some up come on. so to, to,

you know, why this kind of look, actually quite sensitive feeling intellectual is in many ways controlled as bad stuff as well. now we're talking before about this quantity of religious attitude. this started and had towards the books and knowledge of the office. and i wanted to what a center thing the phenomena of stalin was specific to russia is collect the soul. because if we look at the russian history of russian literature of the nonsense or the beginning of the 20th century, with all these painful soul searching, i wonder if the emergence of uh, leaders like styling the whole landing was also an alternate. that was inevitable. yeah. what as far as the roster is concerned, stone coast is very kind of looked skeptical about all this stuff about, you know, the russian sold and the essential or is it very, in some sense, a very typical representative of anything you know its own way just a way out of that, i'm doing things by yourself exploring. yeah,

i mean very stubborn. yeah, i feel good. i don't expect somebody to points to. i mean, i don't think strongly but so you can self that way. i don't think he would accept your analysis and i don't think i do of, you know, i think i don't think you need to result to those kind of explanations in, you know, what's the warranty? i think it's much more straightforward and, but to, to actually see stein for what he was he to, as we saw him today. so as a communist, as a mall, just as a political act, uh, product, a child of his society. and that's the side as long history, i'm certain for the elections and patterns, but he was nobody he was fundamentally of product categories. um, did you say is don't i thought that was on self education, right, right off his political police and commitments, monsters and company makes much more sense to locate style in combat context. i think anyway, down it doesn't, you know, the context of the russian tradition but, but maybe maybe that somebody speaking, not somebody speaking from, from my experience. so as we mentioned earlier in the angel as a young man,

i was very likes, don. except i was the past with it's robin the live by that's but very like very locked in the menu. i so political activities, some, some i'm speaking from my experience right up. but maybe from the russian perspective, it's not going to pay a very different. i don't want to get too close to contemporary politics, but i do think that they sort of alternate that no 6 tendency coupled with a sense of the rushes to this thing. destiny is very inherent to the russian that issue. and if you look at the right and they put him, he's also out today that he also has a sense of a special way for, for russia, not exceptional, but special way for russia. and i think he's or he's very open about it. he reads history, books, northwell, azure, but for governing the inside. yeah, i think you're there, there are lots of very interesting on comparisons to be made between installing the printer. i, i don't think about that see, putting as intellectual. i have to say in the same step. okay. pollutants engaged,

divide this by don't think the, i don't get the impression anyway. there was central, he's to his consciousness please. is like being that they were stalling. yeah. so. so yeah. so, so to me, certainly in case of ideas with reading, with literature costs, if you strict, yeah, i mean, just putting is symmetrical about the history stalling was actually, you know, the, the, the 2 main comparisons are voice free tomorrow. i'm thinking about stalling them. thirty's, 2 things. firstly, that was patrick. it's a 2nd lead to the both the voted multinational here. and that's the break comes in that the r c between the soviet union, new york to saw, and the russian federation that both of forensically, of multinational multi ethnic studies about stalling and polluted committee to defending that multi that multinational character of all of their respect, respect is risk.