the, the, the mouse sooner attempting. welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the u. a. it's been just over a month since israel failed to prevent massive palestinian resistance, retaliation for decades of slaughter in gaza. the response from tel aviv is thousands of children killed by major nation back multi $1000000000.00 military industrial complex, un secretary general engineer gutierrez, won the world not to treat the atrocities of october the 7th, as if they happened to in the vacuum. and though historian has done more to explain the context of mass murder in palestine than professor eli and pop a director of the art, the incentive about as the indian studies at the university of exeter and author of

the ethnic cleansing of palestine. these in haifa, partition from palestine by the u. n. and 1947. professor bobbie, i thank you so much for coming on. again, on the going on the garden last time you were on the for a book that probably educated as so many of those demonstrating in those native nations against what's happening in the middle east. right now i've got to really begin by asking you why the lack of compassion across the israel, for gods, or i know a lot of the images, a sense of the nature of nations, presume in israel as well, but why the lack of seeming compassion for what the rest of the world is seeing israel is troops due to gaza, to thank you, living you once again having me once again on your, on your program. i think that there is nothing you in the way and the level of compression is you say, i mean i've been experiencing it long before the service of october. if i tried to speak with is really just on the human side of the test. if it was 1948,

i failed to see any compassion i. ready remember the, the take on goes in 12 and 2014 with then by the high a number. ready of to killed and i couldn't it extract any compassionate reaction for most of these what. ready are the dues i knew and definitely there was no compassion conveyed through the main and media also, it was the the disclose of politician why is it happening? i think this has a lot to do with. ready nature. ready of of design isn't as a separate colonial movement and. ready you have to go to the origins and they're like many of the cervical even movies like the ones that establish the. ready nighted states in australia and for instance, in order to get rid of the native indigenous population, you had to deal with nice the 1st and foremost and,

and there's nothing you in the way is raise the perceived most of the other thing is even the young ones as potential enemies as in igloo, essential danger. they are not getting to that conclusion by themselves. that is the outcome of the very a deep indoctrination educational system and it is sustained by the media. i mean you, you just have to hear it. and benjamin antonio's language when he talks about the palestinians, people think that this is a new language because of what happens of the 7 of october. but this is because people have very short memory. you spoke this say it. ready as well, it is gary or is it by minister and do you probably remember yourself prime minister begging and the way he talked about that effect in 1980 do during these a invasion of live alone when he compared alpha to hitler in the bunker. so i'm afraid that this is not unique to the particular. ready a catastrophe that we are

witnessing at today. it's the most structurally, is rarely joyce perception. i would say races perception, oh, the palestinians as a sub human. so infer human as some of our little things like z z a likes to research oregon the government as well. and some, i'd say that that lack of compassion is reflected, of course, in london, berlin and notably washington had not wanting a cease fire. do you think that many jews in what was palestine understand that the biblical prophecy did do by the american christian right from which uh, american politicians get the vote is from that they end up uh, believing in your day or side on the day of judgment to do you think they understand that this is very little, but i i remember the, the, the,

the honeymoon between binge. i mean that the me, when he was still a, these really and bustle go to the united nation, he started in 1992 as this serious connection with the, the christian designers. and he was asked about these a, you know, the find letters in the contract. namely the dues would be either bobby cute, didn't have all the to do research on it in this design scenario the end of time. and he said that doesn't matter. now with methods is that now we have genuine headlines and i think that's how these ladies treated. but moses res, i would say underwear of course of. ready and they just a very even though right, they don't know very much and their media feeds them. that's kind of narrative. ready and historical knowledge which fits the ideal, legitimate propaganda rather than allows them to be at critical thinkers and,

and take a more independent position towards the reality. so given what we've been seeing in recent weeks, always seeing the beginning of the end, or could we be seeing the end of the israel project? it's a very good question. and i, i think that, uh, the terminal is really wor that uh, kind of raised me for the savings of october between with i both the state of do the name, the, the state of the settlers. let's see on a deal practice from the minute the list and the state at least the most secular. um kind of multicultural version of these really i thought they were fighting each other for the future. i think this a despite the fact that it has stopped, of course, because of the war will be resumed very soon. i. ready really can see the integration void. ready are opting again? this enclosing soul with n? i think it indicates always

a because uh uh for the beginning of the end or all the end of, of the beginning if you want. but uh, i do warm you and the viewer, uh, is there any store in these processes which we to as beginning of an end can be quite long in our lifetime. uh and more important there, uh like dishes and fees. we remember the last days of uh, a buffet, so as africa and a some other origins like that and therefore yes, i do think that the. ready validity of this project is not holding water and it'd be the levy, the right the. ready he's, he's really don't really. so the knowledge, it seems as we're going to is only 2 options and i agree with him either a knew nothing about. and this is unfolding in front of our eyes as we speak, or a one democratic state for. ready and i still hope and it has to be,

i'm an active list as well as a new story. and that has to be optimised is that despite the, the unfolding of the 1st option and maybe with the internet. ready and regionally, intervention, we might build the basis for the 2nd option. there's no 3rd option. the present reality will not stay forever. so it's either adult, the task to feed or hopefully building a very different future for those. but his team is andrews in the story for lender by this time. and of course, accompanying all of this uh these uh, warships and perhaps one of the largest nato nation. ahmad is in history in the eastern mediterranean. the form is extra genuinely, i really i'm unless it runs out. it is joe smiled when i asked why is it everyone gives invoking iran when it comes that i'm us. a sunni organization does a boat, it's some guys is the u. s. policy in syria trying to with, through a president that said, how successfully is how successful is the media en espanol and

joe biden. and your b indeed is in trying to make out that this is somehow to do with a ron the october 7th attack. this is, i think we have the best, the narratives, and we have something that i call the method of treat text with the context. and namely, people use the same as a, told her as a pretext to implement policies that were unable to implementing food before. let's take the americans, the americans use the, the, the events of the service over to her as a pretext, to resend a research military presence in the, in the area and to try and win back some of the hazy i'm on the, they have lost and due to their failed policies after 2001 is really does use the event as a pretext to implement the massive asked me cleansing,

which they could not implemented during the time of the war i do for the time of peace because there was no peace but if he's in time of no war is really is fully aware that using the. ready or you can do much. ready in terms of mass explosions, then you can do uh during the time of the. ready work so yes i, i do think that this is one method of not i think the other one is a goes to, to build this story that the earnings behind everything like and also posted, sends all its, uh, you know, uh, whatever you call them, hands into into or. ready faxing things into, into various areas. instead of, you know, listening to the secretary general's the united nation, who would say, how much does it need to you're on the listing is don't need to, you're on uh to resist. as throughout the use of the. ready population colonization and oppression against these ladies. there's no need for

any power from the outside with the region lower international to pay like personalized people who are exposed to ethnic lensing and now getting the size of the policies. they don't need someone from the outside to tell them to try and resume is a and to drive to the. ready road stop the end stuff this uh colonization. an impression. uh its but incredible how some intelligent people in the west. uh repeating this uh, narrative, which comes out of the hollywood budget has nothing to do. but we reality on the drought. and anyone who knows the other thing is driving from the very beginning, knows as christians and muslims are involved in that that it has a very str. ready list a side to it as well. that is relies on a russia and china and iran in brazil. and other countries are willing to challenge the american hegemony. i mean, this is a typical sub will be belong in this drug. ready that just in terms of period the

zation is outside the convention. the framework of most of the empty colonial and successful is driving that happened totally between the 1970s until the end of the last century. but this is an ongoing struggle that belongs to that peer. they just didn't materialize it. i know it is a picture on social media and check of are in, in gaza doing the rounds. and it was louise also who we interviewed on this show, the president of bolivia has of to 7 diplomatic relations with israel. we so columbia acting as you say, brazil, china, russia, all these different voices quietly confident that the arab, well doesn't really matter when it comes to what's happening in guys that regardless of a pattern, the summit in saudi arabia, inside the they don't really have any impact into what happens to palestinians and all the thousands of children being killed. the yes, but the,

it's a very who's the position by the are barely genes because i like the genes themselves or societies are very. ready interesting is still regard palestine is a symbol for. ready or the struggling will be out of. ready ready together to be deliberated, to strive and to progress. so i'm going a such a leeway against. ready wishes of most of the people who live in the, in these are countries can that can be very dangerous in the future. i think it's not a coincidence. the, during the so called the, i don't know if the spring assume many of the demonstrators don't themselves with about us being in a flag. i think there is a kind of an understanding that there is a very complex reality here. you have some regions that assignable committed to the struggle on the side of the better state is like the serial one. and the same time,

they also have their own issues of human rights and civil rights. that the auto blue ones, ones 2 souls which gives you a very clear indication that without a just solution for the palestine question, the other will not be able to deal with issues of human rights and civil rights release itself from the grip of american imperialism. and build itself as an independent and the bulletin actor in international relations hasn't gone by. how stop you, the more from the director of european incentive about the city of saudis, at the university of exeter. after this break the

of the with the end of world war one, the move in for an indian independence from the british empire flared up with renewed vigor. the british responded to the growth of the national liberation movement with arrest and brutal, violent repression cause active resistance. in march. 1919 at the call of mahatma gandhi, a peaceful strike began in the country. but the british responded with a new round of violence and far bade the indians to gather more than 4 people. on the day of the seats space at the festival, a huge crowd of civilians gathered in the center of the city of i'm gonna start in northern india seeing these as outright defiance. general reginald dyer gave the order to open fire on the, on, on the boat. the barbaric execution claimed the lives of at least 379

indians, including 40 children, the youngest of who was 6 weeks old. the indian national congress considered the official figures to be underestimated and announced the death of more than $1000.00 civilians. the well known greatest newspaper, the morning post called dyre. the man who saved india gave him a sword and 26000 pounds sterling as a token of gratitude for the massacre. the amorous star massacre wind down in history as one of the most brutal grinds of the british invaders and only escalated the affair. struggle of the indians for liberation from the colonial yoke. the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the renowned historian and

all of the all the ethnic cleansing of palestine dive as a non profit, as well. we were talking about instability in this region, but of course, it becomes increasingly clear that in the same nato countries arming the ledge, genocide in gaza. this seems to be a degree of instability given the british politicians are considering binding the palestinian flag in uh, in britain of shocking the obviously the united states wouldn't do that. they have a, they have a 1st amendment. what makes this conflict and, and as i say in a genocide occurring now, so different in terms of blow back when it comes to a civic society in the united states. in western europe. the exist in both the states, the very beginnings that is a restrict because this event is it doesn't, it's also a game changer. it's, it's uh was however, the event is in does that. ready unfold is right,

it would still be in the pocket state design isn't, would still be a circular colonial state. and the ballasting would still be colonized people struggling with very little regional and international help to drive and when they're at negotiation independence and treat them so. so i think that is where you, you, you and from that perspective you can see that there is, there may be a change in the leg. ready on sup. ready to the civil society, maybe it's even more. ready movie it's higher then it was, and there is an exactly the, the mirror image of it. there is even less dollar and by the government's in the west to allow for the speech iphone. by this time i think all this would for tuesday unfortunately depends how you look at it go back to its previous levels. namely, i'm afraid that. ready level is also the directors of both of the palestinians would not be the same after the event in guys again,

however they would and it was on the other end, i'm quite sure that the draconian measures that the base of government, for example, is taken, may not really stay in place. so that's a really shows us that as active is especially in the solely donkey movement. we should think about. this is a chapter that a lot as a, as a, as an event i was out of context and everything we faced as challenges. and the biggest challenge we have at least in the global most and in the west is the civil society. that he's very broke on this thing and, and yet unable until today to have any significant insights on the policies of the governments towards palestine. this is that for me, the main issue i'm, i'm, i'm less vista though though it, i'm outraged schools when president biden, it tries to explain why he does not support the chinese and russian goals for a ceasefire, which is the most normal and right thing to do. i know thing how,

how they can sleep at night knowing what it means not to california seized by, but only known. i don't think that this is that different toler policies in the future in the past, and i'm afraid this will be. ready the policies in the future i need my only hope is that somehow the civil societies and so the, during the movement maybe that was them. well maybe the or will i would step upgrade. the call is what you want this only diety with the other thing is it make you to month and much more effective, fixed, or in changing the reality on the ground. not just, you know, the distilled agend, assigning goes up, but also to change the reality because as you probably know, more than 100, but his ears were killed since the beginning of the 7th of october. and the westbank salesman's has been arrested without trying. and the palestinians citizens and israel being harassed daily and by the police and andrew citizen. so we have

here a situation. ready were all the other students all over historically, by this thing, need urgently the international community in the region to intervene because they're in balance of power at this moment that history is against them. or is there a change because as per events of the un security council of to be you a back resolution? it is now okay. according to london, berlin washington said that killing children involves numbers on the basis of their ethnicity is okay. now, as a self defense that's now being established. yeah. you know i, i'm even willing to give them some sort of a margin of, of doubt that they do not fully understand. and it's only about the,

the leaders at what the error message they're supposed to is, or how their message to support in it to is that it is understood by these ratings . and it'll be above the society in the police. the leadership like it is these methods you know, is you don't follow them in the houses, are these really flat colors or these readings like all the, the, the i some dollars with the colors of these ladies like he's right. he's understand it is a mess. it says we absolves you from all the things you have done until the service of october, and you have another free license to do whatever you want, regardless of international and the laws laws in, in the does it stay? uh, i'm not sure. every american, every british policy makers, uh, is, is, this is the kind of message they wanted. this wrote that to had. i still hope some of them are the logical of humanity in them. uh,

but what we know from the story is it zine is lo, be in america, in britain, even if they would have no doubts whether they took the right decision by giving is rarely stopped lunch. they would be very timid and careful not to a challenge these very low be in the countries and, and be, you know, exposed to allegations of the same it is and so on. so it's, it's a situation where they are in the reputable that they themselves put themselves in it. and this isn't the assumption that the, some of them are not as, as colors as you have just described them, you know, totally in different due to the images and in the india and the repos we're getting on and i'll on the basis it's on the does this good, while they were proud about if you trucks coming across the graphic crossing, of course, and for all the international isolation of these nato powers.

as regards what's happening, why the using violent be approved, you then change in being leads, administration screen it so necessary to talk about a 2 state solution after all the work you've done after all the work. so many scholars have done to explain why only a one state solution will solve this question. it is interesting to say that i, i spend the very excellent 2 weeks in china in the beginning of this month teaching . and so in. ready universe, these summit, few diplomats from the chinese foreign ministry and i put that question to them as well. and i think the the mission that the both the russians for and ministry image and useful and mystery feel that there are no. ready do at least challenge the new this goes the west is putting

that's what matters now is. ready how is road to implemented is the destructive policies and only pay a live service to a solution in the future. so in any way, it is, i hope it is destined to indicate that these 2 powers, these 2 global powers, might be more involved in the future. and i still learning what should be the original position, because i think also china, china, and russia. until recently. you know, if you think about the russian participation in the port tab before, where allowing the west and especially in the united states to be the main mediate . a very this, all of this both are but to the domain broker. if they want to replace it with the maybe other countries, like the zealand south africa is broke, is probably they would have to study again, the origins of the conflict,

the essence of the conflict. and hopefully they would understand that the 2 state solution is not viable anymore. and if there is an international pressure, it should be towards a different kind of political solution. of course, given this discussion between us, it would help pull any member of netanyahu's cabinets. and that'll and a left wing, so called left clicking is riley's, how desperate, good, uh, israel, and i mean that you all good of course go to jail anyway after this car in the beginning. but uh, how desperate could the is really leads get? what is the nuclear weapon threats in israel? i think, but so far i really cannot predict. uh, i, i can only that. tell you was i thing happened so far at these really at

elite is made of 2 main components. $11.00 is the police one, and the other one is the security organization which includes the army and most of the secret service and so on. to do today uh, the additions where contains a limited in their extra is against your um by the people who are paying for all the security a pillar, so to speak. however, there is a demographic changing those institutions. and quite a lot of people who come from the settlements are now beginning to climb up in the actual loans, also have the security services. so i don't know how long. ready is more load pragmatic, you know, even the rest and i'm willing to give it to them. ready or i shall approach that was the wrong over use of nuclear weapons. how long will it be sustained if i'm, if my feet are, which would become true that the demographics,

both that particular military and so use the lead with exchange at which time? uh it, by the way this, this uh elite does not have the bonus being as you over. so you can see if they, oh, they totally agree with the presentations about the, the, the destruction of the palestinians and genocide, the policies and ethnic cleansing policy. but when it comes to regional war, i think they're bit more bushes, then they are right, we politicians. so we have to watch and see whether this balance of power is changing. in order to fully answer your a right to an important question. promising you not a problem and thank you a thank you very much and that's it for the show. and condolences from the whole team here, we're going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east. we'll be back in the brand new episode on saturday until then keep in touch by a little less social media if it's not sensitive and your country and had to

a channel going under warranty, the all normal don't come, don't you handled episodes of going on dependencies have to the, [000:00:00;00]

the the, the city a strike on southern gaza at least 2 journalist dead. some of, of zeros bureau chief is among the thing. what did the civilians of god to do today? the world is blind to what's happening in gaza. is israel target's, i likes the whole so in central jobs of the diet, medical crisis wesson's across the board like additional thoughts investigate a must've central to see thing. system sandy and the must go above us up to more than a 170 buildings were cut off and due to severe weather conditions the