[000:00:00;00] the the, in many cases, perhaps in most whistle blowing is clear cut. the issues are simple, the response is simple. and the observer who is not steeped in the issue can still understand what the story is. but some cases it wasn't blowing are complicated. the right and wrong of it may not be hard to understand, but the background, the regulations and the governmental response often is it's a special kind of whistleblower he keeps fighting in these complicated circumstances. it's a special kind of whistle blower who continues to fight for 30 years. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers

the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 joe carson was born in brooklyn, new york, and earned a degree in mechanical engineering from the university of rochester. he was in head picked by admiral hyman, rick over the father of the nuclear navy to spend 6 years on a nuclear submarine. in 1982, carson moved into the private sector working as an engineer at several nuclear energy facilities. in 1990 he joined the department of energy as an engineer just one year later in 1991, carson blew the whistle on wrong doing. for the 1st time. he reported d. o. he was using paid consultants to supplement employees. he argued that this was designed to milk the system d a. we immediately retaliated by declining to implement his safety findings, which detailed serious workplace issues in the always oak ridge, tennessee,

nuclear facilities, putting lives at danger. it took 10 years, but the merits systems protection board found in carson's favor ruling that the department of energy quote retaliated against the appellant because of his whistle blowing by taking away critical duties from his job assignments, issuing letters of admonishment and by reassigning him from his home in tennessee to maryland. this retaliation, not surprisingly resulted in illness and stress, as well as necessitated the appellant to take a large amount of time from work to consult with his attorneys and other advisors. and quote, the we was ordered to pay carson $400000.00 for legal fees and costs, but the story doesn't end there. frankly, carson's complaints about d a. we were just beginning the m s. p b is an independent clause. i judicial agency in the executive branch of the us government that serves as the guardian of federal merit systems. its mission is to

protect the merits systems, principles, and promote and effective federal workforce free of prohibited personnel practices . in other words, it is precisely the place where a federal whistleblower should go to report evidence of waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health and public safety. but it doesn't necessarily work that way. carson told an interviewer this, he said, my 30 plus year whistle blowing story has essentially 2 parts. the 1st part was against the we. the 2nd part is against the office of special council and m. s p b. joe carson, welcome to the show. well, thank you john. it's so wonderful to be here with you and your audience. i wanted to begin jill with a nature of here with the blowing whistle blowing is of course, as i said a minute ago, bringing to light evidence of waste fraud abuse. so a gallery or threats to the public health and public safety. so tell us about how this all started. we're talking about 32 years ago now. what was the nature of your

whistle blowing where you have to order for cry, but the time they hired me, it's a department of energy because i had a lot of didn't quite experience as a nuclear engineer. i started up several nuclear reactors in the navy and in the commercial world and the department of energy realize they didn't have technically competent people to do oversight of the contractors who actually operate a department energy's facilities. so in the problem, energy is unique in seen you are in a number of ways that a lot. so all $300.00 plus federal agencies and that stems from its mission for nuclear weapons called it a carpet advantage you. but the reality is it's, it is energy. yes. but energy and nuclear weapons are just a big part of what the week has been about. you know, it's, it's, it's a successive to live in that project to the se. okay. and one of the biggest singular about the weight is that a self regulating source worker safety. when congress passed the workplace of

health and safety was in what 9070 in a well, agencies exempt themselves from oceans during the distinction. the department of energy was the only agency to do so. so i was how are, in a sense to be in effect, a combination, osha, n, o c inspector with n d a. we with oversight over the waves of your facilities in oak ridge and elsewhere. and what i found it is um that because of secrecy, uh, because of fear of retribution. uh, because honestly because d a we lawyers. ready to put a target anyone's back for us, any concerns and get away with it that do we was very unsafe, the facilities and i'm just not, it's not just my conjecture, my whistle blowing in the 1st 10 years of the saga played a positive role in the passage of the war, 2000, you know, to what is entitled the energy employee,

occupational illness compensation program act up. 2000, getting the past with a very close thing. i think by with a boeing and other actions play to a positive perhaps significant. ready and his passage at this point in time, way 2023. over a $135000.00 former d. we workers are there, surviving spouses have received over $20000000000.00 in compensation. oh my god. being safe and unhealthy. yeah. workplace condition without their knowledge, but that added protection in making and then do we facilities during the cold war 10 and the to that that's how you started though. it was about safety and it was about safety at the, at the workplace. and when you went, i, i'm even reluctant to say when you went public, but when you reported this, you weren't in that almost immediately with retaliation. what was this, that d a we did to punish you for this was the blowing and i, i'm going to add to, i've known you for

a long time. you've always done this exactly the way we are trained to do it. you've always done it within the confines of the law. this is where it's not. i've been non wiley. where's this thing is to show we've been around for 30 years. yes. and i think this or and all of us. um, so the so yeah, you have to correct that initially they, they suppressed by safety findings because a voice concerns about the use of, of, of you know, consultants, no support service contractors do you, we has contractors and contractors and, and, and i'm, i'm unusual. i mentioned to you we use, i think single word i'm in the nuclear weapons mission since you were in being exempt from osha and and received your a sticks and it's also saying your end is reliance upon contractors. the term is called go co go co with the acronym i'm going to use, i'm sorry, probably a lot of acronyms go co stands for government own contract to operate. so do you, we always use facilities, but it is,

it has contractors or the long term contracts with big corporations to operate that the so what he's thinking that's. ready with the private sector should be doing as opposed to the federal government. but the we then go out, you know, those contract management. but when do we realize that these contractors have been making a ton of money, but dumping a lot of waste, believe it or not, i'm going off in a lot of tangents. if you look at the, the, the debit waste of the us government, you know, what? number 3 with the 3rd item on that list is, i hate to add, simon, and it costs for the department of energy. number 3, now estimated $500000000000.00 and every year we spent $10000000.00 to clean up. but the, the estimated cost remaining cleanup goes up. and you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, you know, it, and this is from the new, another legacy you creating 60000 nuclear weapons, you know, during the cold. ready or more so um okay. okay, so i was a because i've always concerns about the sport service contracts. they started to

suppress my safety findings and then put me on what's called a tip, a performance improvement plan. it was pretty amazing because one month i'm getting a for ro, performance evaluation. then i get a special performance evaluation of point $57.00. and it's like college with a 4 point with a 4 point know scale. and my responses i'm breathing isn't worth at least a point 5, you know. right. and over the years, joe, you've had, you've had a number of wins, including one early on in which the government was ordered to pay you $400000.00 for your legal fees. why the zeros were case? why does your case remain in convention? well, okay. it's actually in the 1st 10 years, i have a bill notes here with an 8 times. now when i say prevailed, i'm using that more legal term o'clock that the government had to pay my attorney's fees be if you had to but be able to get attorneys fees. okay. so one time i, pavel by the end of a settlement,

the time i prevailed by dint of unit the will unit unit laterally with through the, the contests of personal action. and the 3rd time the time you described in the, in the intro was yes, i went on the merits in additionally, i mentioned the son of agreement, the we did not out of the settlement agreement. so in fact, the image be bigger damage debates with forces said i'm agreement and it must be a great deal. we have not kind of the settlement were and in the case you mentioned do you, we did not honestly. ready order to restore me. so i had to go back to m as the b to get there must be beats with get order dealing with with threatened d a. we to withhold the salaries of a d. we official if they didn't comply with the order. um okay, so that was the or during this whole time, there's another entity and that's the us of the special council. and that's a small obscure agency which is specifically test to protect me from what repeatedly happens to me. right. so i'm going to make a distinction here. do you,

we single be out. early on it is, i was, you know, i was explained to the very clearly the, the, the wires rules for a was if you will, for employment to be a week. and it was kind of like a good fellow. it's kind of a thing, joe, you're a great guy. what did your background you got a nice family level about. oh, got it. hey joe, you're going to do just fine. but let me tell you the rules here, okay? if you, if the we, if it's legal, is that can be a week if it's legal, it's, i have to go and do you wait. if the attorney is get away with it, it's legal and it'd be a week the only way you have joe is the right to seek employment elsewhere. the joe you go to just fine. okay. right. okay, flush and then here we, i, this is the question john. yes, is this why was, was still 20000000 people on a new summary and the, it's really no, no, not at all. no. and i'm going to see, you know, and you know, i'm going to, you know, and you know, i'm having a nice life, but they're gonna take me out. you know, i mean, not, not, not. well, it should have been activated,

but not going to be fired. we're going to make this ongoing. yeah. okay. and then 30 years later, here we are 30 years later and you're still in the same position then you were 30 years ago. this is 30 years after you begin your whistle blowing. so i know the for about half that for about a half that period, how have the issues changed during that time? and how has the government's response to your whistle blowing changed? i have we ever or have you ever gotten to the point where they've said okay, listen, this has gone on long enough. you're right, we're wrong. we're going to fix this or have they just double down and fight you this whole time? oh, okay, well let me try to, um, you may say i was born in brooklyn. uh, i'm showing here. that'd be good on the screen. me like a 5 anyways. my grandfather is ring. he was in new york city farm and put it in front of my nose. i. there it is. okay. and a name for him. a fireman, you know

a 100 years ago. but i grew up watching the rest of the world trade center walk in a high school. i was in a numerous time, you know what it was there. mm hm. so my strongest, and i'm saying, you know, and that might be a sort of my strongest initial. and where do we actually 911, release. it wasn't no clear. right? going 1st thing about the corruption in the department of energy, the custodian, america's nuclear stockpile. and the lead federal way to secure a new collapse which it was around the world. ok. good point. so it's personal and i realized that was going down to spend a minute ago. do you? we singled me out, reprisals the all the special counsel in failing to protect the time after time after time did not single me out. i was just another space in the crowd and i realize that the reprisals are experiencing the way the war breaking our experience and do we had causes outside of deal with the failure of our student tech. we enabled a d. we attorneys to basically conclude with

a pretty uh personnel specialist and align management to engage reprisal. oh and then we seek discovery. they would invoke the attorney client privilege. you know, you didn't do that. a drug cartel can lawyers representing a drug cartel section to witness, and then a bulk attorney, client privilege, right? that kind of deal. we the custodian of america's nuclear stockpile cream. okay. so why am i still here to look new daily attorneys? no, i got dirt on them and so we have kind of a stand off, but i realize the returns can do what they do because low as the attorneys allow them to an image the be with leaders, allow them to sort of idea. we further, we've kind of futile and i saw, you know, i'm not, i'm not, i mean, i'm not always staying my reaction, 911, and then like more anxious, i have to take out what take down, what was the this well breaking through and the federal agency that puts americans civilization at a necessarily increased risk of a nuclear $911.00 or other special catastrophe. jo, hold that thought. we are speaking with joe carson,

an american west of lower from the us department of energy, who has been blowing the whistle on government wrong doing for more than 30 years. stay right there, joe. when we come back, we'll discuss joe carson's experience working with and fighting against the federal bureaucracy setup to address with the blower revelations, stating the. 2 the, [000:00:00;00] the, to take a fresh look around as

a life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real live indians. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse who really wants a better world. and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as fast? can you see through their illusion going underground can the least return to the russian states never is as tight as on one of the most sense community best. most all sun set up the same assistance

must be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on the russians cruising and split the ortiz full neck, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube, the payment services for what question did you say a request for? check the the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john curry onto we're speaking with joe carson, the american was the blower from the us department of energy. joe,

good to have you with us. thank you. good. it's good to be back. thank you, joe and joe, to me the, the most complicated aspect of your whistle blowing has been this ongoing interaction with the merit systems production board. the m s p b. you can you explain to us exactly what the m s p b is what its role is in whistle blowing and why you've had to fight it for so many years. let's go back to the history of the federal silver service and i'll try to get just the high points that was created in the 1883. the body association are present. garfield by a disappointed office seeker. prior to that, all federal agency inform was patronage based, but there was so much corruption of the grants and the federal agencies or federal government girl. it's much the civil war that there was a push to make a federal employment marriage based on patronage space. the pedals inactivate 2 or 3 created what has been allowed the. ready civil service,

the biggest single legislative change in that 100. what 40 years, right, is a. so there was a form act of 1978. and the m. s. b, b was created in by that was another agency created by the law was the offices, special council and, and some, several others. but what it is we're just way to objective. so the civil service reform act was to kind of find more that the federal agency employment would be marriage base. not if you will corruption guys to look for, you know, if you're not falling married at this point in time, you're breaking the law as long as it was corruption from the merits, which actually bought in the name. and it would imply was to protect marriage based employment practices in federal agencies. violations of marriage based before the marriage. principles taught by the agency is a term quite a bit of personal practices which include with a well reprisal. excuse me. the other special council has

a positive do pretty to protect federal employees, comprehended personal practices. the management section bought it in addition to is, was i do to get to function as a duty to report to the president and congress. whether federal employees are radically protected from free of your 1st practice, including but not limited to which the low reprisal and then the president has the duty. if i'm just the b service, you want to take any action necessary to correct that, right? going to work, right? right. so i would say is a fraud. and what i'm saying is it's throw it that you might have thought that was for advocates and they would say well, who is the is good is well meaning. and how can you reconcile well meaning with fraud? right. well, you can, in a sense that it's close to you guys got a 120 employees. the police are federal workforce of 2000000. it just doesn't have the resources. that's right. so it goes all foreigners. so it may be more meaning,

but it's still a fraud. sure. it just is a bible. yeah, it is the same thing on capitol hill where you have these enormous federal departments and then you have a dozen staff members or 2 dozen staff members that are supposed to oversee them. it's just not tenable. and in your key, right, this is dragged on for so long that you must have attracted the attention of at least somebody in congress, right. their, their committees in both the house and senate that oversee the activities of the department of energy. yeah, surely somebody has said something. so what's, what's been the reaction in congress to your whistle blowing? well, the reaction other, say a prison, you know, probably as low as i never showed that, but, oh yes. and it would just be, be yours. i kind of still are, but it will kind of get a lot of attention out of sappers as many other things. congress as the 50 will outsource, is over side to which the board obviously groups end up. okay. so when i talk to people congress,

i say what the whistler advocacy group say. they really don't want it. they don't say i'm wrong, but they don't get involved. yes. and that's kind of discuss you. yeah, that's actually been that that's actually been my understanding of your situation. you and i have a lot of the same friends in washington, for example, were acquainted with the same the same whistleblower advocacy groups we've worked with with several of the same groups. but um, but when you mentioned the m s p b, their eyes just sort of glaze over. and i, i've often wondered where are these outside groups and all this? why are they not advocating for you and be on the width of lower groups? what about the federal employees unions? why aren't they helping you? why haven't they jumped to your defense? okay, well option option a i'm just going into your cran wolf. yeah, there's nothing to say right? correct. so they're not going to connect goods, right?

that's, that's an option. all right? option b, these advocacy groups and others a great what's going on. so the government blubbering the benefits their business models and that's so much, not a very, pretty picture, but is there an option? see, right, right there really isn't an option you see. besides that, besides suing, all you can do is to continue filing lawsuits. is that right? well, with the reprise of appeals, you know, be it, but that goes if i am as b b is that like a real? hm. yeah, i've been, it was a grand 4 times 4 times. and so there's, you can imagine is rid of documentation though. yeah. and is that paper, any way that says, like, with the disclosures wife? reasonable belief. yeah. it's all, it's all about the authorities trying to hide the world. right? yet my case is on various ground. so there's, there's no other termination of the merits, including the merits of my west motors,

motors. so, and then you get involved with the image, the federal, 4 years. and then there's a and they have a vested interest in a worth was always see the numbers to be then available to have why? so because a federal employee use an icon, i'm a member of a board or, you know, use the boards where you and you, the fact that referenced the presence of it was a suit of it. so years ago there opened shop and they cannot require federal employees to pay dues to them. so why would have federal point paid $3.00 to $400.00 you to do is to a union. right then bond quote pours the union reps to say it's insurance. what do you mean by insurance? there's something called election of remedy to view a wedge of prohibitive personal practice. yes. you can either file a grievance within the union or you can go to always c, m is beeping. you can do both. so of always seems to be

a seem is worthless then the, the, the grievance process through the unions is, is, you know, relo to be better, which helps justify payment insurance, money for the dues. right? so total of 4 years benefit from a broken over say, no matter what i want to america and they, you know, they're, they help set it up so you need memberships, and that's what they're interested in. mm hm. for, you know, and i'm st. john's legally be, you know, and i'm going to be 70 a few months. i have almost 40 years of federal service. i want to get to know what personal cost 911 mission accomplished and put it by me. okay. yes. so really to see and my wife agreed, i could spend up the $100000.00 to get a resolution. i was to go to school. your teens not now spend about $25000.00, but i'm going to put money on the table to say anybody file a complaint against be with the tennessee is very board me. allegations of, with the, of the operating, it always seems to be or, or not, truth, what objectives that i'm going to 0 quite well. and if that, if the,

if the 0 boy in tennessee takes every display actually goes to be a given you whatever money we've agreed. so it'd be like about to me and i've said just the coffee houses. and then we kind of the respective edge or current head of m as b, b and the former head of the over the special cause, who is now a nominee to become a member of m s b b to no response, no response. but there's another risk, there's another angle that is also api. i resend the board members of m s p b, or attorneys. a large majority of employees of all we'll see our attorneys by currently plastics. who is your clients in, in um, in the, you know, attorney client relationship has been essential to attorneys identity by currently to ethics. if you're a government agency attorney, your employee ac is your clients. hello, cathy. hi. it was a discussion with the licensing authority. the dc bar, she is justified to do whatever you can get away with the prevent any resolution in my visible disclosure, right?

in the protective her clients, the agency that she also leads the agents are supposed to protect the integrity, the federal civil service. and you see how we're kind of a has like setting. yes it so yeah there's, there's an inherent conflict of interest here that you just can't get past the right. and then the legal profession, legal ethics, just don't address the scenario of the, of a lawyer who works for government agency who actually implemented that was right old address. right? a default to this. that's my client. my client is never wrong. i'm a hired gun. i'll do whatever i can to protect my client, that's good. so here we are 30 years later. how much am i perception, how much dimension? what threaten puts you in world in which trust and in federal entities other institutions continues to decline. and i'm a post the job as a why should the client? well joe carson, thank you so much for being with us today. i want to thank you and i want to thank our viewers to patience and persistence. are the keys to every thing,

even if it sometimes feels like they constitute. instead the hard work that you have to do after getting tired of the hard work you've already done. still, it's all worth it. even if you have to fight for 30 years, like joe carson did, thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 the acceptance and i'm going to play with you, whatever you do, do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please. i do have the state department to see i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do,

don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not, we don't want to watch it because it might just change the wayne state. the boss can do either excuse with key at the washington state, the rules of the computer system on send

2 professional men city and to keep the list of all but huge. but they use the the mass protest you dropped across the world in solidarity with palestine, demanding usual, and this outlet, and it's on the eve of 100 days of war. we've got that the at least a 135 people are killed in the past. 24 hours in id ups twice on the on k, but the south area designated as a safe area being the main target. also go ahead. we were focused on making