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the ssl on our team international is more on our website at our t. com. i'd they show our josh worlds of part is of the welcome to was a part of multi polarity, has long been trained to award the most countries under your sanctions. but it didn't amount to much concrete. the part from perhaps a somewhat helpless disdain of us had germany. but over the last year and a half as more and more nations were forced to find their own ways of dealing with best and fresh a multiple are to, has started to take

a more tangible form. what is it and where is it? having to discuss that, i'm now joined by around call us when is ellis, deputy minister of foreign affairs for north america, so call us it's great to meet you in. great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you much for the invitation. now we are talking here on the sidelines of the, of all day for him, which this year a care is the title fair multiple larry, see how to ensure a security and development for all. and i want to start by asking whether you believe it's even possible to ensure security and development for all and do it in a fair manner. well, i think it's something that we have to strive for, for sure. in venezuela's own history. uh, you know, we are a revolution that uh, inspired by c mobile dealer or liberator, who spoke about the librium of the universe as a concept back in the 1800. so he saw the, the tensions between the different poles that were rising. and that's how we have

to establish some sort of equity in room balance, so that we can assure that everyone's interest was consider. and i think this is the point we're reaching now. and in this one history where we can no longer just sustain a world view, we're only the interest. so one country is accepted, but we have to make sure that we cater to to the interest of, of different peoples. because that model of the single country is not enough to guarantee for the rest of humanity. a safe planet, a safe safety from health or the risk of the seas. so so, so the, there's a need for us to build something different. i think it is achievable, and i think it's something that we have to promote. but even if i put that one country um beyond the brackets for a for a moment, we'll start from different bases and doubts a different for source, assembled with different challenges. how would you even assess as the fairness of

the framework is we are all moving in different faces and sometimes in different directions? well, i think that's where the art of diplomacy comes in and the importance of dialogue and, and how we have to build relations with countries among countries are relations field precisely on dialogue. we have to try to understand each other. so there's different cultures of diversity. pressing what's i was spoke of to wait for the priority, meaning that uh, not only do we have to have different pulls but the, these that we have to accept the diversity in each full so they can co exist. so i think it's important that we, we do that effort of, of dialoguing and trying to understand each other, see where our interest can meet. because everybody's obviously has different interests. everybody has different needs. well, there's gotta be a point where we can make them meet and, and work together for the best of all. he meant speaking about dialogue last year and they've all day plan the recession. you asked the president of this country, of alignment, put in the whether anything should be done to support this process of shaping

multiple larry chances out sir, was essentially no, you know, it's a, it's a natural development. and besides the west to is already doing everything necessary to bring multiple arity about. do you agree with him? that's no specific measures. a need to to uh, protect or support this process? well, i think it's important to like, he mentioned that this is something that is taking place now, and perhaps we will find out that along the way, for example, with the emergence of, of bricks. now as a such a strong platform that we may have to do some things to help it along the way and contribute to, to the building. i think it's important that we, we strengthen those processes because that's where we can really see a new type of arrangement where people can participate in different countries. have different types of participation. and we can overcome a stomach problems that we've just, for example, that in, in countries in, in,

in the south and the global south or even development seem another way of, of corporation for development that doesn't in both of you of one country of another. but it actually is a, some of necessities and, and opportunities well getting into an argument for misapplied or put a nice thing. sometimes it's very difficult to allow these lab be approach. and not only because your opponents are piling economic sanctions on to you. but also because i think they're now overstepping their own values and their own laws to punish countries like ours. for example, i don't know if you've heard that, but the e u has recently introduced the master that would allow its officials, customs officials to stream russian nationals on their personal belongings like phones like even toiletries. and that is coming from countries that i still believe to be the champions of personal freedoms and privacy. i wonder if we have come to

a point when we have to be concerned about the unraveling of the west because of the western sanctions. well, i think that's something that we're seeing a part of the result of these sanctions. and these policies is that is a promotion of fate in a way o all or is it. and that only happens to russians with a, in this case, uh, that you mentioned. but you seem to happen, for example, in, in, in, with lives american migrants and in, in the united states for, uh, you know, the, the, every time you have the place uh, migration on the other end is that only the, the law is not only the section itself, but it's also accompanied by a message of distancing themselves from the other and generating fear. here we have to distance ourselves from the, from this policy we have to stop these processes throughout the world. we've seen this re emergent is in both, both in europe or also that america,

of the fastest tendencies that are use the use hate in order to promote their policy. so it is part of this process they use hate of to promote their policies, but they're also sort of a very successful in projecting it out to other countries. they do not see that as hate. in fact they, they seem to be very self righteous. what could possibly uh, bring it to their attention that they're doing the exact same things that they are accusing that adam is off. the problem is that i think it will get to a point that these measures that they take and that they promote, heard them as well. they're going to realize that their actions also have consequences. and they are already those in and academic terms. so we're seeing, for example, the gas prices being probably the highest that they've been the last few months in

the united states and hardly is due because the, the way the essential to impact uh, oil markets throughout the world. if countries like venezuela, we run, for example, didn't have the sanctions place on them, there could be different oh, rush, rush over for the fact the like, leave a very different consequences or the very different i'm energy supply and, and the effects on the us people will be quite different, but also easy in other issues like even uh, with migration itself and in part of countries that are under economic distress because of, of sanctions. well, one of the results sometimes seems to be migration and, and, and this, the united states was also feeling a said there is a feeding loop, whether they like it or not. but for the time being they still prefer not to notice it. yes. and in a way is it is part of the, you know, the part of the problem, the,

they, they believe that their actions don't have consequences, but they do now uh, the west is using not only direct sanctions against the countries like russia, women as well. but also secondary sanctions to penalize those who are willing to do business with the quote unquote the renegades. and that could be seen as a direct uh tool against uh, multiple r a to you. uh, you know, if we understand multiple our to is a space when nations can relate to each other on their own terms, do things sooner or later. multiple letters who really require some sort of formal arrangement or protection against western pressure. well, what we really need already exist, which is the principles in, in, in trying to know you and charter, the end of practice well, but they're there and, and you know, at one point in time, countries to, to become members of the u. n. they, they signed the, the charter, they agreed to be part of it. and what we need to do is to rescue those,

those ideals, and those principles and, and stress the necessity of, of respecting them the, the, the idea, the us, for example, coming both these unilateral masters is completely a violation of, of international law. so we have to do is uh, we don't have to do the same, we have to defend and show that we respect international law that then we want a system where multiple our to comply with. but you know, countries can thrive because there's a re, um, a minimum of respect for each other's interest and well, me, i don't know if you would agree with that. but what i find very interesting about our times is that, you know, there's principles that have been trained in the you're in charge of for stake is it now makes sort of sense to oppose them because it's in your own benefit. and we see some of the us nominal allies like saudi arabia, like united arab emirates, becoming members of briggs because they, they find it not of holy uh,

what does moral terms, it's in that practical developmental interest. so do you think there's something new about the way countries relate to those values and trying them to you and charge them? well, we're definitely a moment where we realize that release just have to be different. because again, the, the system though that was prevailing over that was trying to be, impose on the rest of us, doesn't have the solutions to our problems. i think what countries are doing or realizing that they have to abide or follow those, those principles that we'll share and, and doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to subject ourselves to a country. it means that we have to build spaces where we can dialogue and contribute and cooperate, which is very important. so we have to engage in el center relationship rather than incursion. now speaking about venezuela, your country has been under western sanctions for,

for it for very long time as has iran, cuba, some other nations. but it hasn't provoked with these kind of rapid changes within the international economic and political system that we have observed recently. and i wonder if you see western sanctions against russia as a standout case, or whether it's simply the cumulative effect of all those years of sanctions against various countries. that is influencing this for bringing about this rapid change within the international system. well, it also has to do also with the size of countries on the economy. so obviously garages of much larger country and the impact that these measures may have on, on, on the world because of how they affect russia is different from holly may impact smaller countries. but the truth is that about 30 percent of the world is right now and has some sort of unilateral course of measure from the united states. and present nicholas mode has been very um, open in, in, in uh,

denouncing this these actions and how we have to find new uh, new solutions uh to end of dependency that we have for example, on the dollar or that we have on, on, on this capability that the united states, as time american financial institutions, all american lab, financial institutions, we have a reset built to be international. that's why that's why i presume a little said in, in, in the recent his message to the recent bricks meeting and south africa of the, the importance that it was to, to find new alternatives to find an architecture for new financial model to think about the, the lowest ation and see how we can have a, another organization of the world where we're not. so depending on the united states as a well mr. carlos, we have to take a very short break ref, still dependent on the, on our schedule, but we will be back in just a few moments state you and the

hello and welcome to the cross, the full board here we discussed some real in the welcome back to me as a part of all the carlos minutes ellis, deputy minister for, for the 1st 4 north america specific colors. before the break. we mention sanctions that the united states maintain against your country for many years. and i know for a fact that the news, ellen and the reigning experience has been studied in russia extensively to

understand what to do and what perhaps not to do when dealing with these draconian measures against my country. i wonder if venezuela has learned anything new or got any new ideas from the russian experience? well, i think it's funny because when we uh, i remember one time speaking uh uh, when the sanction started under the trump administration, i spoke to a russian diplomat and fully encounter with and, and in washington and, and the 1st thing he told me was, well, you have to learn to live with sanctions and, and in the ways to, you know, part of what we have seen from the experiences of russia, but also the ron of cuba for many years is that, you know, the point of, of was of the sanction policy from the united states is to reduce regina change and produce all these alterations of our reality, which are not in tune with the needs and the wants of the,

of our peoples. so we have to learn to, to, even though we have these aggressions how to make our, our own solutions on how to move forward. the experience from russia now is, of course, is also interesting for us as all the other ones. and i think what, what we have learned is that nobody's going to give us anything for free. we have to, well, whatever we're gonna do for our future and will however, we're gonna develop our country. we have to do it by defending it ourselves by organizing our people's and so i think that that, that is the best lesson that we can learn overall. it's interesting you say that because uh, you know, a substantial part of those sanctions were brought about after the elections of 2018 and next year you're facing another presidential vote. do you expect any american interference reducing the americans wouldn't be too preoccupied with that. on the 6 political strife?

well, i think the, if we look at history, you know, this year will be, that's a 100 and the rest of the, of the monroe doctrine, which is a thing that going to celebrate. well here's, here's, here's the thing is i, what we seen is this constant intervention in the continent. uh, you know, in different different shapes of farms from cause to sanctions, to a invasion is everything. but so, so the tendency is that they will always try to find a way to, um, you know, see in gauging in our processes and alter, in, in their favor. we, uh, i think we, the people know what the reality are. you know, i, i think we have faith so these are great. and so these around us and we have had a leadership, a city leadership on their pressing model that has led the country out of that. uh, you know, that aggression, we have been able to grow and the last year that,

you know, which is something that nobody would been, will was able to predict. uh, you know, just a couple years earlier because they thought that everything would collapse. and we have shown that, you know, we are capable of, of, of achieving a different uh, different outcome. so i think the, minnesota people know that, you know, they, they have to keep advancing in their democratic process in the deepening a revolutionary process. and i think that will be the outcome regardless of whatever intervention it takes place. the venezuela is, is an emergency. and you know, we will have elections and different forces would measure themselves. but i think the sort of people know where the horizon is speaking about different forces. one voice mail from the west at that time, the recognized as the interim president defend itself that is barely seen or mentioned anymore. how do use is that? how do you assess his political fortunes? well, i think it was the, well, she left the countryside even

a political figure of any importance right now in venezuela. and i think many countries now realize that it was, you know, ridiculous to have supported the adventure of trying to recognize the government, the that didn't exist. so you will have not only didn't have a legal basis, but also didn't have any popular support. i mean, nobody though that was for trade us and either could simply leave the country and there will be no effects whatsoever. you can, you can see, can see that it is when it's almost overcome that, that chapter i think, you know, when we're looking forward, we're looking ahead again for some of the has shown us a way, thoughts gross towards the improvement of services for the benefit of the people i think that's the password on and that's important. as i said,

you're looking forward to that. i also want to ask you to look sideways a little bit because i'm interested in your opinion about the american election. so which are also coming up next year. and i think what's different than we've talked about that a little bit already is that the station for the americans themselves is different there. and they have never been so polarized as they are right now. and i wonder if, if you think that the outcome of the next year both will have any bearing on how the multiple r a t shaping or how the events only a continental shipping out. well, i think 1st of all, i want to say, you know, we, we are respectful of the sovereignty of the people's united states. so whatever the session they make, of course, if we respect them and, and that's what we want them to do in our but let's, as me, the choice is quite unprecedented in this very, i mean, the, perhaps not very inspiring, even for the americans themselves. and judging from the polls, what well there's,

there's many problems in us society now. the other facing because of the, their model is, again, it's not able to fulfill the expectations of people using growth in, in, in, in homeless mass us and growth in poverty. so there's a lot of traffic patience on the people who say so that they need to find a way to, to vote for, you know, solving their own problems and not trying to police the world are trying to engage in our elections. i think i hope that whatever comes as a result is another renewed opportunity to engage with united states diplomatically and on equal terms. i mean, you know, maybe maybe a high bar to said, but i think it is important that we remember we've always been willing to engage with united states, the medically, as long as there's a relationship with mutual respect, when you don't have them with the respect and then all these other informations

comes about it. so my hopes that lease or that whatever outcome of this is something that can lead to a respectful relationship. now one of those issues polarizing, here's domestic politics is immigration and it's no secret that been his element migration to the united states is linked perhaps directly to the sanctions policy. and i think this is one of the very, very few ways that the americans can directly experience the consequences of the actions. but i wonder if migration is still big enough of a challenge to influence the american approach, either to sanctions or to your own country for their own sake. well, the problem is, what we seen in draw history in, in us politics, is that sometimes, whenever these election moments come and there is always a foreign adversary of some sort and you know, either is it could be one day time when the russell or any other country, or it could be in the shape of migrants from anywhere enlighten america. this,

in this case, because of the narrative, they have a negative narrative against when it sweller, you know, they're focusing on minnesota migrants. but, you know, been sort of not even the, the main source of migrants in the united states right now, in any case, a lot of that migration historic. the reason has that to do with the intervention of the united states. now it's sanctions, but before you know, the, the, the cause, the, the sabotage to democratic government. so the just sitting aligned to their purposes that lets for people to seek uh, solutions and to seek them a north because at the end of the day you effect the economies in a way that people, you know, they, they want to look for other economic possibilities. so it's is, is a moment where there's a, there must be a lot of reflection on the side of the you the be both of us to see where the real problems are, where the real, where they should focus their energies as not necessarily foreign threats. it's,

it's the way it's functioning inside that they need to deal with. i don't know, she would agree with that, but i think it is this perception of invincibility and that for decades to allow the american political class to move as impunity. and to sort of believe that that consequence, that actions don't have consequences. and if you look close, the whole concept of american exceptionalism is ultimately rooted in this idea that they are somehow above and beyond retribution. my question to you is, what do you think me persuade? not the american people, but the american, the leads that they're humans like anyone else and therefore they shouldn't be constrains self constrained by some notion of common responsibility or at least responsibility before that own people. i think their model, the current model has shown is not sustainable. i think the comically is not going to be sustainable in the long run. the again, the, the challenges are facing within the country. the goals of poverty,

the now the new, the gross of drug use of which has now become one of the main, or the primary class of, of definitely used in the united states. show that there's something essentially wrong with the system that there and, and that exceptionalism, that's not going to be the answer. i think. and also, you know, i, you mentioned the leads were the, the fact that the people are realizing this, i think it's important because, you know, there is the giving, say, this even a massive and imperialist movement. the we don't see in the media but, but that, that it does live in the united states and doesn't, once the country to, and it's government to deal with these actions. and i think that's growing every day. and you know, sometime is going to reach those decision makers. there's gotta be new generations of, of, uh, lawmakers and to come in to us politics that, that focus on real people's problems that has to happen. you come from

a country with the stronger revolutionary tradition, but i think that comes a point for any country when a revolution has to give way to do engine for i mean revolutionary slogans. i know it's enough. you actually need to provide for your people and it's very hard and often times on them just on under appreciated work of governance. i sometimes wonder if the americans are stocking this revolutionary phase of thinking of themselves as sort of the so the shining seat here on the hill without even caring off. but, you know, working the fields or, you know, the roads inside the inside that field. well, i think there has to be a change of that exception of this mentality. but, but i think again the, the problems are they, they're going to and kept learning counseling right now in the streets or is was gonna be thing that change will come because the, the american system as it exists today, does not allow for that. in my view, it's nice for a free and comprehensive expression of political will because

a choice between the 5 and then trump is with all due respect to the americans as a very poor and limited choice. well, there's other movements that i think are important within uh, you know, local uh, there's gotta be a gradual empowerment of people and it start is going to start is already started and, and, you know, local that was received different a different class. so of politicians in, in city councils and other places that are, are contesting some of these a visual policies that come from exceptionalism. it's a process and maybe maybe we're not going to see it next year or, or, you know, maybe even in 1020 years. you know, sometimes these changes take a long time, but you can see that there's something growing and, and that is that it has to come out because that's the statement, the way they're doing it is not sustainable. well, uh, on this note mr. call us, we have to leave it there,

but thank you very much for being with us. my pleasure. thank you very much. and thank you for watching hope to sir again. and it was a part of the to take a fresh look around as a life kaleidoscopic. isn't just a shifted reality distortion by how us to do vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants

a better wills. and is it just because it shows you fractured images, present it is, but can you see through their illusions going underground? can the

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