the pro view of position in serbia spanking on is this international women. and when i say international, i mean explicitly west started support and applying additional pressure on the government in serbia. they claim that the fraud at the elections, but they haven't really offered any events. thing, not proof of that. uh so, you know, since they haven't been able to offer proofs, they are now using political pressure outside political pressure. so as an argument, you know, but once again, if, if this, they're being government stands firm, you know, that's, that's the most important thing. they, they just have to stand firm against for an pressure, no matter where it comes from. as long as the survey and government as firm, you know the pro you opposite fishing, is that gonna get its way? the serbian m p alexander of palm beach. okay, we are going under going next. find out who options engaging in conversation today in moments, then i'm back at the top with all your early we can global news on page. this is

part of the i'm action or attention. welcome back to going underground. broadcasting all around the world from the middle east. quite apart from the trauma and gaza from british american to you, nation armed aerial bombardment, there is a trauma all around the world. one of the greatest trauma specialists in the world is all the cost saliva. dr. gamble my to a he's an award winning all of those things as last studio of interview with us even found time to interview brings harry earlier in the year. but today he has catastrophe in the middle east. on his mind. his books include when the body says no, the cost of it and stress in the realm of hungry ghosts,

close encounters with addiction and the method of normal trauma, illness and healing. and it talks at culture and joins me again from vancouver in canada. thank you so much. talk to much have a rug coming on the show you. you said recently that everything one says about recent events is going to hurt someone. why is it so difficult to even talk about foam or amongst palestinians in the parliaments of nato countries like your country, canada, the loan of the countries in western europe? i think there are 2 major reasons. one of them is a reality that israel, the input this the phone, the state of is what it was, what it is, such a deep trauma of jewish people and your particular in eastern europe. but then of course, with the 2nd lower in germany as well. and, you know, put in countries fuel or fear, offender of guilt about what happened. did you lose in europe?

that's one stream. but the other end so that there's a fear that by talking about person in trauma, you somehow and then any shooting or invalidating jewish trauma. but there's a more major reason which is that um, the english speaking countries. but they clearly were, are rooted in colonialism. the they'll either whether it's united states or canada or australia. and of course, it's all on the belgium and france. they all participate in the colonial project. what i'm saying is that these countries either were rooted in founded in colonialism or have colonial policy themselves. so they're more likely to identify with the colonial mindset, the mindset of the people being colonial. now, it doesn't matter how you see the foundation of israel is being really dangerous trauma. the reality is that it couldn't have been established without phone

imperial control. and the colonization of the land of atlanta was already populated by the indigenous people. so the colonial mindset dominates less than thinking. and so this combination of historical jewish drama, and a colonial project that to the west or mines seems perfectly natural. so from the western point of view, the motion we like to do identify with the colonizer, the people being colonized, even after all the progress that so many people are talking about in display on, on television. i mean, you've, you've compared the lies in a donation media or about what's happening in gaza to the lives told the about vietnam before. um, uh, the great and laid down l as book who's been on this show actually, why, why do they lie? again, it's a, it's, it is in the service of imperial policy so that the united states has the biggest empire in the history of the world. is god, what

a kind of military bases internationally it dominates the world culturally and less . so was china rising, but used to donated economically as well? and it's the united states decided a long time ago, just as britain decided back in 1917. and the 1920 is that it's an interest of the british empire to establish a jewish entity in palestine. i'm quoting western churchill. and same way, this is decided that it's in his interest to have this on single aircraft carrier go to 0 in the middle east. and the practice always serves the interests of the imperial project. so if you look at any number of american wars of vietnam based on the pack of complete lies, the gulf of tongue can incident, for example, that gave the excuse to the americans to bomb the us. we have now never even happened. but all the press reporters, as reality, the weapons of mass destruction,

which was a excuse to invade iraq, which a 5 year old child towel was a good, big concoction. never the last, the press enthusiast to be tempted. and so for the last 6070 years, this, the press as enthused as a lead trumpet at all. all these really talking points and totally ignore the, the, the occupation under the impression on the repeated the killings of palestinians. because it's, so it's american imperial policy, which is what the, the press is subservient to, you know, what? and then 10 years, 15 years later, they'll do some soul searching. oh my god, we, we made a mistake. ellsbury was right. you know, pentagon papers was right. we have now was based on a buckle buys or they'll do some soul searching. oh my god, there were are no weapons of mass destruction. but the next door that comes along,

they'll always fall into line. and they're doing that right now as well. and you think this is a conscious slide, i mean, clearly you've been talking design is communities in recent weeks, a mid sphere that you cause a genocide. then i'm going to say they know they're lying. and what hillary clinton, she knows she's lying. when she talks about bedded babies, and the need to bone loss for those, i don't know if this people at the top nor their line or whether they're so bought into the so boxed into the 80 ology that they'd be serving all the lies. so the best thing on fluids, but on the actual line, probably sometimes they are probably also often they believe what they're saying because i think when you consider who rises to the top in the system, nobody, it was fixed. the truth ever rises to the top. so there's a selection process that happens, but then you get the level of a clinton or where joe biden, or re issue some smack or justin to though for that matter,

they've been through some of the processes that they have to prove their loyalty to the system now, by the time they raised the only the most loyal to get there. and so it's hard to tell whether they're lying sometimes or whether it's just sincerely telling. uh, untruth is, you know, i, i'd have to talk to them personally. i can't tell i, i suspect they do both. and even though they do, but, and in this context where the people is of nato countries of the united states invest in your backing to the hilt and the is there anything over ations on, on garza the, the weaponry the billions of dollars of age. and so on, what is the rest of us and the people? how do they cope? i mean, of course, we're not, we're just forgetting for a 2nd. the trauma of all those survivors in, in gaza tonight and today. well,

how do you suggest people cope with the trauma of those feeling hopeless in nato countries, arming the legs, genocide as they watch it on social media feeling deck is nothing they can do to stop. well, of course, the reality is that these mass movements that arise in response to these horrors, they have their expressions, and a lot of people come together like guns, a 1000 people, them, but in a few days ago. but you know, it is, it's hard to keep up those kind of movements, you know, and the governments don't care. and anyway, what i say to people is number one through the work. and this is for me as much as for anybody else, do the work, speak you to speak, and as long as you can connect with other people as much as you can. but don't be attached to the outcome. you know, going to that the outcome defeats, you know, that you contribute to the truth in the world by or pausing some atrocity. but

don't take it personally because historically, the good guys always lows. that's just how it is, you know, and, and you have to just make accept the fact that you can do, but it's something you've spoken to through. you've helped to sign something like those temporarily. i hope you mean so well, you lose temporarily. but you can do that, there's something important in the world in the long term. that's exactly my point, that your contribution has not been in vain. and there's a fan as jewish rabbi said 2000 years ago, or a little bit more that the task is not yours to finish. but neither are you see not to take part in it. and so, so you make your contribution, but don't do that as to the outcome. ok, then whatever's point. well, what about that is this association then between the killing of children and those working on the weapons?

you know, britain's biggest manufacturers be a systems, northrop grumman radio and boeing in your country in the united states. and of course, the canadian, military and associated companies as part of the military industrial complex is massive in nature countries. how do you explain that this association between the work is work on the weapons doing the killing? they don't act as musicians and so on. told by their agents and studios and publishers just don't speak out and don't do what you just said about the need to follow your conscience or something like that. in canada and canada, there's been a number of people in the arts world who have lost their jobs because it's because i'm in here and vancouver, i live there are um, academics of spoken to and not being threatened by that, you know, by their employing institutions. there's already a lot of people to participate in such things. i mean the ours, my on the manufacturers is on the association and then they,

they're cut off from the humanity that they, they couldn't be connected to the assessing commodity and do the job that they do. and i know lots of people are able to be very nice to their families and their dogs, most filled with terrible things out there in the world. you know, and this is a well known phenomenon. you know? so so that this association between what i do in the world and what i allow myself to feel is, is a very common human trait. and a lot of society, i use it to, it's like that. it's not the only like that in the west is like that international as long as there's another kind of association i was talking to a young muslim student here and, you know, surveys columbia. she says that she's not being on her body is the only way she can . so i, you know, so that i actually, she was worried about she's, and i mean how it is. i'm not feeling my feelings. and i said, listen,

don't worry about it. that's the organisms attempt to survive or to endure what's on your bill. we'll come back to your feelings later. so, so that this association it concerns the function of doing terrible things in the world. but sometimes it's also a response to too much pain in the world. i mean, clearly information about the holocaust came through slowly. at 1st it was room or 1st about what the nazis were doing. i don't know thing. i mean, i said it's always because you're in canada and we saw a true to applauding members are not c s. s. so there's some just associations going on that. but today we can use social media to see what's happening on this industrial scale in real time. well, and that's a germany to nancy did everything they could to actually hide what they were doing . so that i actually fully believe that all the most german saw the anti jewish

laws and practices and a to, and violence of the nancy's they didn't know about auschwitz, you know, they didn't know about treblinka. and sometimes they didn't want to know. but they didn't know which doesn't mean that they didn't support the understand that isn't on the, you know, the nasty state but is specifically know about the atrocities. many people did. of course, many soldiers saw them, but just been there must have talked about it at home, but it wasn't the mass media. what is particularly horrendous right now, and i think it's a politically dark time in the world. and i've talked a lot of people about this is that we're seeing it happen. we're seeing babies, blonde, see, and speaking the lives of their children are the rental donors of all my tell you, i'll have to stop you that more from the renown physician and award winning all of

the after this break the, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with renown vision and award winning all if adult you got all of my tag. so it's all right. i'll come out today for interrupting you and ended up when we were talking about the real time viewing of people billions around the world of what's happening in gaza. i was saying that what makes this a particularly dark time right now? is that raleigh seen a lot, you know, in live action, almost the dismemberment, the young children and parents digging their kids out of their revel. the

politicians are just saying, this is okay. and, and the media for the most part is justifying it. and there's a huge disconnect with you, but people are watching and what they're being told. and i think that's hard for a lot of people are right now. and this is almost unprecedented. it's, it's impossible to compare corrupt these atrocities. and let me just say for the record that october, the 7th was itself is an atrocity. and my view um, but this ongoing, they have play cruelty, unspeakable cruelty that we're witnessing in the face of media support. and the political class in most of the western world is just cheering it on. it's the darkest thing i've ever seen in my whole life. and that saying a lot is really saying a lot coming from coming from you. obviously. i mean,

you did mentioned october 7th. the israel is indeed an apartheid state as a is riley and g. o is like the tell him say does that justify events like october? the 7th, i mean, nelson mandela's dad's now have interviewed him, and of course he believed in the use of violence against civilians in the fight against apartheid. south africa not nothing justifies october the 7th. but it's not a question to justify anything. is a collection of do we understand it and how do we understand that and how do we move forward to something different? and there's always this question of is, or is it is really respond stuck over the 7th port portion of the disproportionate? well, another question is, is that the, the 7th portion of those funds to 80 years of oppression and, and apartheid and killings and massacres. so you can begin with october. the 7th.

um, i don't believe that the feeling, but i firmly reject the idea that it is legitimate to kill one on people and children and all the people and so on. at the same time, when you look at where that arise from, where that came from, which is, as other people have noted as been called, the world's largest concentration camp in 2005 people are blaming home us. and i'm not here to support them. us, i don't, i come on so like what they stand for, what they do, do their own p to factor even that will say that to push them back to the i know, but we might get on to why you feel. you have to say that, but give differently. yes. oh, yeah, no, yeah, because the colonization is tilted in such a way as to make it necessary to even say that, you know, but what i was gonna say was, but in 2005, there was a study done in guys internationally actually looking at children in war zones,

the more as traumatized kids in the world with the kids living in gaza. this is before i'm us to go over. so it's, you know, so in other words, what we have here is generations of trauma as children growing up in this open air prison looking at across the fields or the families used to live in work. and when they do peaceful protests, they're picked up by is really sniper. you know, so why don't we asking was october the 7th, a pop portion, that response to is ready for us. where are we asking is on the bottom, your browser, but person to talk over the 7. i mean, it's a completely a store call. and as is really historian, you know, i'm poppy talks about the historic sizes action of, of the situation. so in the west and media, every attempt is made to the store size of the so like it happened in the vacuum.

it's not a justification to say that it does not happen in a vacuum. in happened after decades of collective, brutal trauma visited on the palestinians. that's ongoing. well, that's the input. that's what i told you. gutierrez said, of course, and israel cooled on the resignation of the un secretary general and the non pop a week. a be able to see our interview with him on the rumble general after october, the 7th. the, you know about this region. you ford for through. you've studied this area all your life, giving me what about, uh, their own, the hundreds of thousands of the seats of britain and so many tens of thousands. and so in the united states, the cities across the country and in north america. what about the powells favorites? stand by of human nature. how do you expect the use the events there to those that don't really understand the situation in palestine? to further the idea that this is somehow to do with human nature and that

the economy, the strength, and the belief that human nature has the potential to be good out of what we're watching on our social media at the moment. in my book and this was normal, it was you kindly mentioned as a chapter on the sort of human nature. and the argument is that human nature is by a necessity, aggressive and individualistic can now style and violence and so on. total nonsense, you know, human nature is a range of potentials and it's a question of what conditions give rise to what kind of potentials my son, the annual who you haven't met. but my 2nd son. oh, i should say my 1st and my older son into 2 young is really is, and instagram a few days ago, who are against the war war against what this guy is doing? well, if this human nature, why and a supporting the war to, you know, i mean, if you look at the boat, it was a human being, hitler was

a human being. jesus was in being a felon. was a human being. and joe biden is a human being and the sort of the people that are opposed to a button. so there is no human nature. what there is, that's that list there is, are systems that promo to one aspect of human potential another. but people are capable of being infinitely cruel and incidentally kind. and the question is, what kind of conversations that we need to have and what kind of conditions you need to establish. they'll promote the be not non folding over a potential, as opposed to the violent and aggressive and cruel ones. aside from the political structures obviously here in the systems, then how do you think fear perpetuates these mastic as of, of babies and children, fear of vitamins warships you mentioned by doing the being a human, the fear of a politician. well look for your father. lucian's fear of speaking out fee is of

uh, you know, at the anti defamation league i understand cool jewish groups. so this is a 4 piece. hate groups. yeah, yeah, yeah. and just like me, i always told there were full sales data and then it was nonsense you know, particular on the left if it wasn't so tragic. but uh, so known. chomsky said that there's nothing more easy than to make the american people afraid. and fear is a powerful form of political control because and people are afraid, the rational parts of the line goes offline and they go into the defensive mode and defensive mode. they're willing to go with any kind of aggression. now look to be fair. after october, the 7th. so there's every reason why many israelis are going to see and mode. i mean some terrible happened during the last people and, you know,

now they also doing so in a vacuum where they don't understand the boston and situation at all. they're not taught it, they're taught to ignore it. but nevertheless, a lot of fear that some young nothing yahoo! who has practice the same policies all his life. he doesn't need fear to do all this. he will pass the proposed indians. he has been tortured. he has their villages taken over by settlers. he belongs browser repeatedly getting hundreds of people. but he'll take that fear and he'll use it to justify the worst kind of atrocities. and that's what politicians do. so the vietnam war withdrawal based on his dominated theory, that is sure that the climate is degree and then they're going to take over the whole world to make the american people afraid. and that allows you to manipulate them into is not but dissipating animal participating. and, but also coined on it, the worst kind of atrocities. so fear is both

a genuine human response to track. but it's also a political to, to manipulate populations with and fear some might say, is a part of modern life. i mean, clearly there's a fear in the highly unstable economy about feeding your family. uh, the idea are in maximum speed, your news is often to try and create fear of your next door neighbor. because make the world see more criminal than it is a fine light say. so how do you, how do you go past this fear and somehow and daily at the moment the fear mongering is done as how mos are isis of regardless of whether the united states are involved with isis. and they're trying to make americans and canadians feel that somehow my so going to attack b. c plays in vancouver or something. well, that's the conversation that's going on is the most wants to kill all the jews in

the world, and they're going to seat them there. they're going to come out to, you know, realistically speaking is speaking, just all nonsense. a mazda is a relatively small organization compared to say, these real estate living in a area of 5 miles, but 25 miles highly controlled. they've always been so they could sting is 0, but they could never impose any dangerous signal significant in jupiter, let alone chosen the rest of the world. that's the 1st point. the 2nd point is, let's assume that how most is you heading organization. that's all it is. let's just assume that for a minute. for the sake of argument, who are these people are not much the same from what i showed them that i mentioned, or go into the study in 2005. where are you the most traumatized population in the world? and when most jews they see where are the uniforms with the star of david and the

you and and everything that's being done to them is done in the name of the jewish state. and the major jewish organizations in the world by and large line up with what's happening to them and justify it and have for decades. do we have to do? we have to identify the hatred of them as a member for doing business with historic and assemblies in europe is not the same . i'm not justifying it again and just saying there's nothing more natural then under those conditions, traumatized people will. they ate their oppressors, and if the oppressors are saying we're doing this as jews in the name of the jewish people, what do we expect? and so i wasn't the only one who responded to october, the 7th, in a very um, mixed way. i know, and i thought it was horrible. and at the same time i thought,

what are the expect? after all these back is what did they expect? and that wasn't the only one a lot of the people who visited the place, like i have been to the occupied territories. who, who know the situation 1st hand that task filleted the we're the ones when i say we, i mean is really i don't identify with angelo state but essentially state but by the colonial powers. going back to the 19 twenty's that i've created a situation where there's gonna be a lot of hatred. and what's really interesting is if you look at the major sign is leaders been going on load of each of it in ski. then graham was the 1st by minister, the 0 loading, the drivetrain ski found that the version is honest. we know the scientists moving which became her route, which be led by begging and fundamental lee by shamir,

and later by shamir, both been going to gelatin ski as well as motion day on, even in the 1950 said, though because of what the odds are doing cameras and but all they're doing is they're defending the land from us. don't take up all much. i thank you. all right, thank you. and that's it for the show. and condolences from the whole team here we're going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then, keep in touch by the social media. if it's not sensitive in your country and have to watch, i don't going underground tv, i'm normal, don't come to watch new and old episodes of going underground seas after the

the congress admits that some of the countries in the fields are fighting in ukraine. but it will do a thing about its wild mercenaries are legal in france itself. also this hour they practice the worst parts of torture on us. we stayed in the rain for more than an hour, and they beat us while we were tied up to his newly released palestinian detainees . this tribe that religion abused by the i the as we hear from a lawyer investigating one of many subspace, the thousands who are sitting in prison. but unfortunately, they are even present service and that is radio completion of the thirty's are not responding to any of our requests concerning the thousands of detainees. a senior.