no surprise that america is unfortunately enabling the genocide of the palestinians . okay, look back. now it's one of the most watched interviews of last year on going underground here a holocaust survivors takes on israel's operation in gaza. right ahead. this is our team to the i'm action or attention. welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world, from the middle east. quite apart from the trauma and garza from british american, a. you nation, armed aerial bombardment. there is a trauma all around the world. one of the greatest trauma specialists in the world is all the cost saliva, doctor gamble, my che,

he's an award winning offers. and his last few days of interview with us even found time to interview brings harry is here in the and today he has catastrophe in the middle east. on his mind. his books include when the body says no, the cost of it and stress in the realm of hungry ghosts, close encounters with addiction and the myth of normal trauma, illness and healing. and that talks at culture, he joins me again from vancouver in canada. thank you so much. talk to much have a rag coming on the show you. you said recently that everything one says about recent events is going to hurt someone. why is it so difficult to even talk about foam or amongst palestinians in the parliaments of nato countries like your country, canada, the loan of the countries in western europe? i think there are 2 major reasons. one of them is the reality that israel, the input this, the phone, the state of as low as what it is such

a deep trauma of jewish people and your particular in eastern europe. but then of course, with the 2nd lower in germany as well. and europe and countries feel the fear fender of guilt about what happened did you lose in europe? that's one stream. but the other end, so that there's a fear that by talking about person in trauma, you somehow and then any shooting or invalidating jewish trauma. but there's a more major reason which is that, um, the english speaking countries, but they clearly were, are rooted in colonialism. the they all it, whether it's united states or canada or australia. and of course, all on the belgium and france, they all participated in the cool little project. what i'm saying is that these countries either were rooted in found in colonialism or have colonial policy themselves. so they're more likely to identify with the colonial mindset,

the mindset of the people being colonial. and now it doesn't matter how you see the foundation of israel is being really dangerous trauma. the reality is that it couldn't have been established without phone imperial control. and the colonization of the land of a land that was already populated by the indigenous people. so the colonial mindset dominates less than thinking. and so the idea of this combination of historical jewish drama, and a colonial project that to the west or mines seems perfectly natural. so from the western point of view, the motion we like to do identify with the colonizer, the people being colonized, even after all the progress that so many people are talking about industry on, on television. i mean, you've, you've compared the lies in a donation media or about what's happening in gaza to the lives told the about vietnam before. um, uh the great and laid down l as book who's been on this row actually, why,

why do they lie? again, it's a, it's, it is in the service of imperial policy so that the united states has the biggest empire in the history of the world. it's god, what a kind of military bases internationally it dominates the world culturally and less . so was china rising, but used to donated economically as well. and it's the united states decided long time ago, just as breton decided back in 1917. and the 1920 is that it's an interest . so the video chat prior to establish a jewish entity in palestine, i'm quoting winston churchill. in the same way the united states decided that it's in his interest to have this on single aircraft carrier go to 0 in the middle east . and the press always serves the interests of the imperial project.

so if you look at any number of american wars of vietnam based on the pack of legalize the gulf of tonkin incident, for example, that gave the excuse of the americans to bundle as we have now. never even happened, but all the press reporters as reality, the weapons of mass destruction, which was the excuse to invade iraq, which a 5 year old child could tell, was a good, big concoction. nevertheless, the press enthusiast will be tempted. and so for the last 6070 years, this depresses them tuesday as the lead trumpeted. all, all these really talking points and totally ignore the, the, the occupation under the impression on the repeated killings of palestinians. because it's, so it's american imperial policy, which is what the, the press is subset of the end to, you know, what? and then 10 years, 15 years later, they'll do some a soul searching. oh, my god,

we made a mistake. ellsberg was right. you know, pentagon papers was right, we have now was based on a buckle, buys all the, i'll do some soul searching. oh my god, there are no weapons of mass destruction. but the next door that comes along, they'll always fall into line. and they're doing that right now as well. and you think this is a conscious slide. i mean, clearly you've been talking design is communities in recent weeks, a mid sphere that you cause a genocide. then i'm going to say they know they're lying. and what hillary clinton, she knows, she's lying when she talks about bedded babies and the need to beaumont hospital. i don't know if this people at the top nor their line or whether they're so bought into the so boxed into the a, the ology that they'd be serving all the allies so that they're sitting on fluids. but on the actual line, probably sometimes they are. but probably also often they believe what they're saying, because i think when you consider who rises to the top in the system,

nobody was, speaks the truth ever rises to the top. so there's a selection process that happens, but then you get the level of a clinton or where joe biden, or re issue some smack or justin to though for that matter, they've been through some of the processes that they have to prove their loyalty to the system. now, by the time they raise throughout the only the most loyal to get there. and so it's hard to tell whether they're lying sometimes or whether just sincerely telling. uh, untruth is, you know, i, i'd have to talk to them personally. i can't tell i, i suspect they do both. and even though they do, but, and in this context where the peoples of nato countries of united states invest in your backing to the hilt and the, is there any over ations on, on guys of the, the weaponry they've billions of dollars of age and so on. what is the rest of us

and the people? how do they cope? i mean, of course, we're not, we're just forgetting for a 2nd. the trauma of all those survivors in, in gaza tonight. and today. how do you suggest people cope with the trauma of those feeling? hopeless in nato countries, arming the legs, genocide as they watch it on social media feeling deck is nothing they can do to stop it. but of course, the reality is that these mass movements that arise in response to these horrors, they have their expressions, and a lot of people come together like a $100000.00 people them. but um, uh, a few days ago. um, but you know, it is, it's hard to keep up those kind of movement, you know, and the governments don't care. and anyway, what i say to people is number one, do the work. and this is for me as much as anybody else. do the work, speak you to speak it as long as you can connect with other people as much as you

can. but don't be attached to the outcome. you know, going to that the outcome defeats, you know, that you contribute to the truth in the world by or pausing some atrocity. but don't take it personally because historically, the good guys always lows. that's just how it is, you know, and, and you have to just make accept the fact that you can do, but it's something you've spoken the truth. you're, you've helped to sign something like those temporarily. i hope you mean. right. well, you lose temporarily. yeah. but you can do that, there's something important in the world in the long term. that's exactly my point . the idea of contribution has not been in vain. and there's a famous jewish rabbi said 2000 years ago or a little bit more that the task is not yours to finish, but neither a fee not to take part in it. and so, so you make your contribution,

but don't do that as to the outcome. ok, then whatever split. well, what about that is this association then between the killing of children and those working on the weapons that, you know, britain's biggest manufacturers be a systems, northrop grumman radio and boeing in your country in the united states. and of course, the canadian, military and associated companies as part of the military industrial complex is massive in nature countries. how do you explain that this association between the work is work on the weapons doing the killing? they don't act as musicians and so on. told by their agents and studios and publishers just don't speak out and don't do what you just said about the need to follow your conscience or something like that in kind of in canada, there's been a number of people in the arts world who have lost their jobs because this because i'm in here and vancouver, i live there are um,

academics of spoken to and not being threatened by that you know, by their employing institutions. those are the people who are participating such things. i mean the ours, my on the manufacturers is on the association of that they, they're cut off from no humanity that they, they couldn't be connected to this as a commodity and do the job that they do. and i know lots of people were able to be very nice to their families and their dogs was filled with the terrible things out there in the world, you know, and this is to run on so on. you know, so, so that this association between what i do in the world and what i allow myself to feel is, is a very common human trait. and a lot of society edy's it is like that. it's not only like that in the west. it's like that internationally, as long as there's another kind of association us talking to

a young muslim student here to turn your service colombia. she says that she's not being on her body is the only way she can. so i, you know, so that, so i actually, she was worried about she's, and i mean how it is. i'm not feeling my feelings. and i said, listen, don't worry. but if that's the organisms attempt to survive or to when you are what's on your bill. we'll come back to your feelings later. so, so that this association it can serve the function of doing terrible things in the world a but sometimes it's also a response to too much pain in the world. i mean, clearly inside edition about the holocaust came through slowly at 1st it was room or 1st about what the nazis were doing. i don't know thing. i mean, i said it's always because you're in canada and we saw a true to applauding members and not c s. s. so there's some just association going on there. but today we can use social media to see what's happening on this

industrial scale in real time. well, and that's a germany to nancy's did everything they could to actually hide what they were doing. so that i actually fully believe that all the most german saw the anti jewish laws and practices and attract and violence of the nancy's they didn't know about auschwitz, you know, they didn't know about treblinka because sometimes they didn't want to know. but they didn't know which doesn't mean that they didn't support the end to send. that is, and then the, you know, the nasty state but is specifically know about the atrocities. many people did. of course, many soldiers saw them. but there's been, there must have talked about it at home, but it wasn't the mass media. what is particularly horrendous right now, and i think it's a politically dark time in the world. and i've talked a lot of people about this is that we're seeing it happen. we're seeing babies

a bond this effect and speaking the lives of their children are the rental dodging of all my tell you, i'll have to stop you that more from the renown physician and award winning all the after this break the the,

the welcome back to going underground, i'm still here with renown vision and award winning all the adults you got all of my tag. so it's all right. i'll come out today for interrupting you and ended up when we were talking about the real time viewing of people billions around the world of what's happening in gaza. i was saying that what makes this a particularly dark time right now is that we're all are seeing lot, you know, in live action almost the dismemberment or young children and parents digging their kids out of their revel. and the politicians are just saying this is okay and, and the media for the most part is justifying it. and there's a huge disconnect with you, but people are watching and what they're being told. and i think that's hard for

a lot of people are right now, and this is almost unprecedented. it's, it's impossible to compare corrupt these atrocities. and let me just say, for the record that october, the 7th was, itself is an atrocity. and my view um, but this ongoing, they play cruelty, unspeakable cruelty that we're witnessing in the face of media support. and the political class in most of the western world is just cheering it on. is the darkest thing i've ever seen in my whole life. and that's saying a lot is really saying, is that coming coming from you obviously, i mean, you did mentioned october 7th. the is rarely is indeed an apartheid state is a, is rarely a n g o is like the tell him say does that justify events like october?

the 7th, i mean, nelson mandela's dad's now have interviewed him. and because he believed in the use of violence against civilians in the fight against apartheid south africa not, nothing justifies october. the 7th, i don't, but it's not a question to justify anything. is the question of do we understand it? and how do we understand it? and how do we move forward to something different? and there's always this question of is there is, is really respond start over the 7th port portion of the disproportionate. well, another question is, is that the 7 portion of those funds to 80 years of oppression and, and apartheid and killings and massacres. so you can begin with october, the 7th. and i don't believe that the killing, but i firmly reject the idea that it is legitimate to kill one on people and children and all the people in someone at the same time when you

look at where that arise from where that came from, which is as other people have know that has been called the world's largest concentration camp in 2005 people are blaming home us and i'm not here to support them us. i don't like them on. so like what they stand for, what they do, what they do, their own p, the factor, even if i say that to push them back to the i know, but we might get on to why you feel. you have to say that because differently. yes . oh, yeah, no, yeah, because the colonization is tilted in such a way as to make it necessary to even say that, you know, but what i was gonna say was, but in 2005, there was a study done and guys, internationally actually looking at children in war zones, the more as traumatized kids in the world with the kids living in does this before . how much to go over. so it's, you know, so in other words, what we have here is generations of trauma as children growing up in its open air

prison looking across the fields where the families used to live in work. and when they do peaceful protests, they're picked up by his early sniper or, you know, so why don't we asking was october the 7th, a portion of the response to is really part of the. where are we asking is on the bottom, your browser. but pushing the doctor over the 7, i mean, it's a completely a store call. and as is really historian, you know, i'm puppy talks about the historic size, the action of, of the situation. so, interested in media, every attempt is made to the store. so i sort of of this, so like it happened in a vacuum. it's not a justification to say that it does not happen in a vacuum. and it happened after decades of collective, brutal trauma visited on the palestinians. that's ongoing. well, that's what the input, that's what i told you. gutierrez said, of course,

and israel called on the resignation of the un secretary general and the non pop a week. a be able to see our interview with him on the rumble channel after october, the 7th. but you know about this region, you, ford for through, you've studied this area all your life, given me. what about, uh, they're on the hundreds of thousands of the seats of britain and so many tens of thousands. and so in the united states, the cities across the country and in north america, what about the powells favorites, stand by of human nature? how do you expect the use the events there are those that don't really understand the situation in palestine? to further the idea that this is somehow to do with human nature, and that the kind really strengthened the belief that human nature has the potential to be good out of what we're watching on our social media. at the moment in my book to mr. norma, would you kindly mentioned as a chapter on the soap of human nature. and the argument is that human nature is by

a necessity, aggressive and individualistic can now style and violence and so on. total nonsense, you know, human nature is a range of potentials and it's a question of what conditions give rise to what kind of potentials my son, the annual who you haven't met. but my 2nd son, let's just say my 1st and my eldest son into 2 young israelis and instagram a few days ago, were against or were against what this side is doing. well, if this human nature, why and a supporting the war to, you know, i mean, she looked at the boat, it was a human being, hitler was a human being. jesus was in being a felon. was a human being. and joe biden is a human being. and the sort of the people that are opposed to a body, so there is no human nature. what there is that's, that was there is,

are systems that promote one aspect of human potential another. but people are faithful being infinitely cruel. and incidentally kind. and the question is, what kind of conversations that we need to have and what kind of conditions you need to establish. they'll promote the be not non folding over a potential, as opposed to the violent and aggressive and cruel ones. aside from the political structures obviously here in the systems, then how do you think fear perpetuates these mastic as of, of babies and children, fear of vitamins warships you mentioned by doing the being a human, the fear of a politician. well look for your father. lucian's fear of speaking out fee is of uh, you know, at the how do you the information the guy understand cool jewish group. so this is a 4 piece. hate groups. yeah. yeah, yeah. and just like me,

i always told there were full of self hatred and then it was nonsense, you know, particularly laugh if it wasn't so tragic. but so known. chowsky said that there's nothing more easy than to make the american people afraid. and fear is a powerful form of political control, because then people are afraid, the rational parts of the mind goes offline and they go into defensive mode and defensive mode, they're willing to, but with any kind of aggression. now look to be fair. after october, the 7th. so there's every reason why many israelis will go into fear and mode. i mean, some thing terrible happened during the last people and, you know, now they also doing so in a vacuum. but they don't understand the boston and situation at all. they're not taught it. they're taught to ignore it. but nevertheless, a lot of fear that some young nothing yahoo! who has practice the same policies all his life. he doesn't need fear to do all

this. he will presses the past indians. he has been tortured. he has the villages taken over by settlers. he belongs browser repeatedly getting hundreds of people. but he'll take that fear and he'll use it to justify the worst kind of atrocities. and that's what politicians do. so the vietnam war withdrawal based on his dominated theory that is for that to kind of just stick with the and then they're going to take over the whole world. so you make the american people afraid, and that allows you to manipulate them into or is not but dissipating animal participating in but also condoning the worst kind of atrocities. so fear is both a genuine and human response to thread, but it's also a political to, to manipulate populations with and fear some might say is a part of modern life. i mean, katy, there's a fear in the highly unstable economy about the feeding

a family. the idea are in mass media or news is often to try and create fear of your next door neighbor. because make the world see more criminal than it is stuff . i lied say so. how do you, how do you go past this fear and somehow and daily at the moment the fear mongering is done as how mos are isis of regardless of whether the united states are involved with isis. and they're trying to make americans and canadians feel that somehow i'm also going to attack bc place in vancouver or something. well, that's the conversation that's going on is the most wants to kill all the jews in the world and they're going to seat them there. they're going to come out to, you know, realistically speaking is speaking, just all nonsense. a mazda is a relatively small organization compared to say, these real estate living in a area of 5 miles, but 25 miles, highly controlled. they've always been, uh,

so they could sting is 0, but they could never oppose any dangerous signal, significant the entropy to let alone jews and the rest of the world. that's the 1st point. the 2nd point is, let's assume that how mazda is you heading organization. that's all it is. let's just assume that for a minute. for the sake of argument, who are these people in almost the same traumatize children that i mentioned, or go into the study in 2005. where are you the most traumatized population in the world? and when most jews, they see where are the uniforms with the star of david and the you and everything that's being done to them is done in the name of the jewish state. and the major jewish organizations in the world by and large line up with what's happening to them and justify it and have for decades. do we have to

do? we have to identify the hatred of them as a member for doing business with historic and assemblies in europe is not the same . i'm not just to find it again and just saying there's nothing more natural then under those conditions, traumatized people will. they ate their oppressors, and if the oppressors are saying we're doing this as jews in the name of the jewish people, what do we expect? and so i wasn't the only one who responded to october, the 7th in a very, um, mixed way, and i thought it was horrible. and at the same time i thought, what are the expect? after all these back is what did you expect? and that wasn't the only one a lot of the people who visited the place, like i have been to the occupied territories who,

who know the situation 1st. and that's how still it, the we're the ones when i say we, i mean is really, i don't identify which is another state, but essentially state, but by the colonial powers. going back to the 19 twenty's that i've created a situation where there's gonna be a lot of hatred. and what's really interesting is if you look at the major sign is leaders been going on? let me jump in ski. then graham was the 1st by minister as 0 loading. the drivetrain ski found to the version is honest. we know the scientists moving which became her route, which be led by begging and fundamental lee by shamir. and later by shamir, both been going to gelatin ski as well as motion de, on, even in the 1950 said, though because of what the odds are doing cameras and,

but all they're doing is they're defending the land from us. don't take up all much . i thank you. all right, thank you. and that's it for the show. and condolences from the whole team here, we're going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then, keep in touch by the social media. if it's not sensitive in your country and have to our channel going underground tv, i'm normal, don't come to watch. new and old episodes of going underground seas after the

the tunnel really in revolution regard, core come under is reportedly killed, along with several other officers in the news. really are a strike on the syrian capital. this saturday also ahead part us at mid set, some of the countries nationals are fighting in ukraine, but isn't going to do anything about it despite mercenary activity, being a legal in from a senior. how mazda officially exclusively tells r t that they've got and militant group box calls from the u. n. for a lasting 1st of the prisoners swap deals with israel. we are looking for a final total comprehensive.