it had not been completed, it was planned to hand it over to young people and publish the new families a need to provide a safe. i remember the full families in golf, but the is where the occupation prevented that and destroyed old base housing units as well. as the residential cities in central goals up and the housing units were destroyed, that were built for young palestinians and families, a safety developed by the egyptian reconstruction committee. this is an international committee far removed from his reading military targets. however, the policy in the arrogance of the occupation is the target. everything intended as relief for palestinians here and gossip of nice drawing. i've seen a lot of times the young guy on the ground and will be back at the top of the out the

i'm action or time seeing welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the u. a. e. so has circled genocide, joe launched explicit war and the energy superpower, iran. this of the gaza resistance forces killed. ok. buying american troops accused debating isis in the middle east. and one of the usa is reputation. it's so called soft power. now that the usa backs plausible genocide, the time the world quote uses for the u. k. u. s. and you nation on back mass killing of tens of thousands of palestinians, mostly women and children in gaza. cauthrin clinton official professor joseph knife when the dean of the harvard kennedy school is credited within venting the time. soft power is they just look at life in the american century is like a who's who of level security power. is he charts, he's rise to become charity usa is national security council, the assistant secretary at the pentagon. he joins me now from cambridge, massachusetts, to thank you so much for visiting i, for coming on before we get to the book. i suppose i better off give a briefly about who you think would win a wall with a ron given that so the debate right around the world and obviously especially here

in the middle east. well, it depends what one means by winning a war. and i think you'd find broad losses on both sides, but american power versus a rating and power. the simple term, it's not a question, but who will pay? what cost is a more difficult customer to figure out? and people are suddenly looking to buy the administration to understand that cost daily you. uh, you helped expand the harvard kennedy school. clearly from this book you show how you worked on that. but is an i have to say some of the donors are associated with a back end. israel, israel soft power gone. now these pictures are beaming all around the world, let alone the us a soft power given to the entire international community is watching as, uh, nature powers back an arm to the teeth, the. this alleged and the side. well,

i wouldn't say it's gone. uh, but it has been dated or damaged. um oh, i think one of the dangers is uh, it was defense. secretary lloyd austin, put it uh you can win a battle and lose a war. and now there's in terms of tactical successes of these early. so demonstrate that they have a good deal of capability, but in terms of a soft r and the ability to attract others, i think the disproportionate number of casualties and gaza has indeed damaged their soft power and washington's soft power. in recent years, let alone the garza as well as if it did. again. i think the american sauce power has been damaged by the disproportionate the killing

of civilians in the cause of war. uh vitamin is plead for the israel east is take a more measured approach, but it, there still damage to americans. sauce power. on the other hand, if you look at the american soft power over the years, it, it goes up and down. i mean, sauce power is the ability to get what you want through attraction, rose and coercion or payment. and there are times in the past where americans, soft power has been very badly damaged. for example, in the 19 sixty's, there were protests around the world against the vietnam war. but by the 1980s the american position was, had recovered some early. i think you see americans soft power damaged uh after

the rock and taishan. uh, but then when obama selected it recovers its damaged again by trump recover somewhat with bite. and uh, so the, the in this can be ascertained by the, on the public opinion polls. the problem truss trump is the jumps reading and those opinion polls right now. looks like no, no i, i, yeah, no i, that's a question or will it be come back and if he does, that would have a severe negative effect on american soft our. but i meant if you, if you look at public opinion, polls it a company like pew has done asking people, i hate to 27 different countries, whether they found america or china more attractive. basically the americans come out ahead. i think good a is 25 of the 2070 countries. so american soft power goes up and down. it could

be dented. on the other hand, in comparative terms, is still relatively strong. yeah, paradoxically, that same view. paul also said the united states was a big threat. they saw the us as a threat of i understand, i mean, you wrote in 2015 that but global futures is the american century over and you were quite sanguine. you were looking at the idea that actually you look at history and you see people for how to prematurely predict the end of american. uh oh, sorry, any m high. whether it be british or any, any of you don't think you're gonna have to revise that off to ukraine, not after you create. i think i revise the different trump is elected in november. i think he will do so here. damage to the american power for the members that a lot of countries, sauce, power to attractiveness comes from it. civil society, not just from us government. the government does broadcasting and has policies and

those can affect it to attractiveness. but um, if a country has a vibrant civil society that attracts others, it's better able to recover. i think back to me the hard hollywood in science, the irish hollywood in the science. but also things like the civil rights movement in, in the 60s. the people were marching in the streets around the world to protest american government policy in c. it um, but they weren't sending the communist internation. now there were singing martin luther king's, we shall ever. com, which is an anthem from the american civil society. so i think in the, in that sense of asking is there resilience and terms of ability recover? i think there's still a good deal resilience in american civil society. maybe because vietnam speech

wasn't broke, as is why these guy ever dream is to be true. no, no is go back to this new book. you knew stanley johnson, he was a regular on this program at oxford. and you say in the book you had shocked his son became prime minister. what do you make of evidence that suggests he was sent to destroy a negotiated ukraine piece made in turkey? i just, i just don't have any evidence or i the answers. i don't know that i shouldn't speculate what i would. i really agree. yeah, but i mean, having said that in the actual book when it comes to ukraine, and i mentioned this because clearly us sanctions have had well the opposite effect . they've the west and the economies of western europe. the global south is a clearly ignoring nature, western europe and the united states views on uh, on what happened in ukraine. but in your book, you pay 345. i think you say i had

a meeting at the kennedy school in 2014 economist eagle. you against the wall inclusion was disillusioned by the west. well, how is the 2014 made then? qu wasn't when we had victoria newland and the leak phone call saying she was picking up who is going to run the run the country. i'm just surprised about how you couple of ukraine in this latest bully. you said $34.00 space, 347 pushing it agreed to receive virus thoughts named the minutes process. but it was not clear whether it would be worth much as we found in 2022. you know that that means the process is unanimously adopt as un security council resolution 2202 . but it didn't prevent the russian storm and fading ukraine. and trying to essentially take over the country of people say this is the result of the americans expanding data or not to conciliate improvement adequately.

it's important to read what read of broke about ukraine in before he dated in 2021. he basically doesn't accept ukraine is legitimate, independent state, and he talks about ru skeet mirror the russian world. and ukraine is a part of that and he will control it by it. so in that sense, whatever the merits and the merits of a 2014 and the russian invasion of don boss and crime is then i think it had more roots in what was going on in keys in the efforts to the of, of, of popular demonstration to get rid of a repressive a government, then it did who is with russia, but russia saw it is her head and invaded. and then the mr. process

suggested that there could be a point of stability. russia taking what it already had, but in the february of $22.00, who decided he wanted more and evaded the and that's, i am going to just the drew up there. that's not really the case is if you have a picture of yourself with the i can give them a call. you have a picture with bank of america in the new book don't here and you know what i'm going to, michael said, yes. he said that the mintz process was a delaying tactic. so nato could, um, ukraine, this was about nato expansion is a and i mean, on the food end point about the way to ukraine, that's on the debated as or whether that's boots in the crying. these deals you know, i think if you look back, you'll see that there was a pretty broad consensus in you, even they, to countries that ukraine was not about to be accepted into data.

2008. there was a question of ukraine joining nato. i think that was the other european countries, like britain and france and others were not the would not have allowed that of. and i think the prove this invasion was a threat to a software country. the countries at the show called global south, or realize that the un charter, which protects countries against the kind of invasion that russia had use in their interest made to see this simply as a european conflict, is a great mistake. the canyon delegation to the united states got this right quite soon afterwards. so they said, this is a problem for all of us by population that general assembly resolution, because i didn't get them. majority is that those who favored russians view on these things. and it said, immediately afterwards,

there was sanctions on russian composes new york, ballet stores, russian literature in the west in europe. you think they read your work on soft power and took a do far. would be okay with the bizarre, a process of banning all things russian in nato countries. well, i think the idea of going on with business, as usual with russia after russia violate what are the basic norms of the international system that you don't take your neighbors territory by force was an appropriate way of saying signaling that this behavior was unacceptable. i think if you'll look at the details, you'll see that some russian artist and composers and so forth who were willing to distance themselves from nyman check off ski and bush can and does

to be ascii when i'm talking about temporaries that uh the so there were some artist who said we don't support that, they were a continued to be in the repertoire. but uh, i mean, you seem to be acting as though or asking questions is so is not guilty of a basic violation of a critical norm since 1945. and i think you just wrong professor joseph nile. stop you that more from the former dean of the harvard kennedy school in all to the new book of life in the american century up to display the the

the welcome back to going on the right, and i'm still here with professor joseph 9 for medina, the harvard kennedy school and what are the new book i liked in the american century? present? i, we ended pop one talking about the norms established off to 1945. of course, the russians would say, i think they are, i've been saying and the world going that they were trying to protect russian speakers in the east and ukraine, but on the broad a point. and even if pressure was in the wrong 2 wrongs wouldn't make a right. your book is full, your new book of uh, of, of, in the side lines. violations of those norm. since 1945 on the day. i mean, clearly at all we was, i mean, you go all the way back to vietnam,

but the so many violations of any kind of know that any, uh, any, uh, no line country would recognize as being and the un charter would need right now the united states is backing uh, the alleged genocide in guys that are in israel set and these and the acting in any norm establish off the $9045.00 and is indeed in violation of course have so many resolutions as indeed there has been violations. but notice that in a book like mine, a life in the american century published in the united states, i am able to criticize american violations such as the invasion of iraq in russia. i couldn't do that. and uh, indeed, that being the cases of the fact that them, john lives in nato countries are not able to report and joins are allowed from west and media into russia. but you actually speaking about freedom, you speak, you know, mentioned julian, it's on, you mentioned edward snowden in your book,

were you shocked by the revelations that i give them a call? as i said, the picture of you and her in the new book that the national security operators in your country was bugging the chancellor of yours was powerful economy. well, i think that was a mistake, and i think it's pretty widely recognized now. but it has nothing to do with my reading and to americal at a harvard commencement ceremony. but us surprised that that was going on. it was, yeah, i thought i thought the that the uh the people in the, in a say what does that had more sense than to do that? because it is surprising, given, you invented the terms of how you're credited with that. you know, mentioned julian, this on you, of course, there's a case coming up at the end of february now and he, he expose so many details of as you would put it, violations of any norms instead of being 45 and,

and all that information is there on the internet for the whole global. so to watch it has huge soft power, like the famous video of the john was being gone down to iraq as well. i means i don't mention julian massage there. many others don't mention on both sides. many issues of the editor took out a lot of material from the book and wanted to keep it short. so i did the hope to the questions of julian and saw it being in the index. it's kind of irrelevant. i only just man, mention it because you mentioned freedom and the freedom to expose more crimes. and in the, in this case, a salt and but said the other day that that is more money wasn't given to zalinski, the nato couldn't get to china. well, what do you think he meant by that? especially in the light of the work you've done,

which doesn't seem to show any desire by china. and you've met many of our officials over decades to invade weston, to you who are well at the present. and she g ping has said that he liked the people's liberation army to be able to re capture type one, which they regardless renegade province by 2027. and many people who feared that china would indeed try to use force to a unified tie one with china. and after the failure of this invasion in ukraine, many people in china and able to reach you at the station region said this shows that the type of vision that people are feeling on taiwan would be too risky to experience it. improving sales with the land based evasion up are certainly

right. thank store this trying to go a 100 miles over the sea with a sea based invasion is of much higher risk. and if she just paint cares more than anything else about is control of the communist party and the company. it's barbara rhys control of china. a failed invasion of taiwan. this is the biggest risk you could take face. so i think that's the type of thinking that's i don't know what store overhead and mind, but that's the kind of thinking people say that the, what happens with your grade also has an effect on what risks are taking in east asia. i want to go back to china, but you mentioned failure. russert communities of hasn't failed. it has killed loads of nazis and so on. and i mean, this is the financial times this week. i am after double as rush has growth up.

look, as ukraine was, stimulates economy, i'll put in russia to rise, impact of western sanctions and banks, post ridgewood prophets. so from russia's perspective, they've strengthened the brick since china i cooperation, organization of strength and ties with china in the global south countries. and their economy is booming, while western europe's is declining. how is russia losing? well, i think if, if you look at the sanctions, they have a, a, a, put a different effect on different periods and turn time the mediator affective sections after the evasion or a drop in the value of russian stocks and also the rubel and so forth. and then you have the sanctions have the effective what you might call into the industry turf. they lead to production at home of the goods that are deprived from abroad. and i grant rush, have benefited from that in the which,

when i called the medium term as well as so did tech support. so for oil, which remains in demand. and then a question for russia and for others is what happens over the long run in the used for media on it. it's true that russia has had certain benefits strongly into an industry terrace, affects the long run their to private and themselves from sources of technology in europe, which are going to be essential for their accomplishing what they need to do, which was joined the 4th industrial revolution if you look at question, today's 2 thirds of its exports are in oil and gas, and it is not made the kinds of innovations that are needed to really join the information revolution. question, i think the russians have to ask themselves is if they stay isolated from europe

and america, are they going to have a, it is good to technological future. you can say, well, they'll get that from china. but then there in the past that becoming a, uh, like a satellite of china. my understanding is, yeah, the scholarly papers are now being published increasingly in, in bricks, countries over western europe. and as i said, west and you are economically seems the why the seem to be in, in decline. you do say in the book that it was wrong of uh, a bama to put a red line on chemical weapons in syria. but now we have so much more information about whether a side actually used chemical weapons. why in your book, are you saying absolutely he did use chemical weapons when that account has been debunked by so many including the o, b c, w whistle,

the weapon section it it, it's not at the bucking, but there's evidence that the site did indeed use chemical weapons, so i don't know what you're talking about. so you have never heard any of the evidence. i mean there, the so much being written at this moment and you say, definitely the biggest problem was syria way better as it is, use chemical weapons when. when that that's a lot to think a pretty big you can find a lot of arguments on the internet about anything but to the preponderance of evidence from reliable sources is that aside did the jewish chemical weapons. and if you don't believe that, what's the matter with the sources of information you're getting? so yeah, i look at all, all the different sources and not just sources that are, say, nature of nation publications. you say the presidential briefing that's given to joe biden, every day you talk about how a lot of it could just be in the,

in the mainstream, in the new york times, or something that's given to the president. and how important uh, information is in the public realm, and there's not that much extra in the in tell you suggest in the book. well, to give you an example of what's called open source and intelligence, meaning what's in the press, what's on the internet. so for i is very important part of what should be in that briefing, not just secrets. and in an information age open source is becoming more, more important. and in that open source intelligence as well and see good intelligence . there's evidence by the international chemical weapons association, which of unit that comes under the united nations. the other side used chemical

weapons. yeah, actually i met the o p c w whistle, but it has come fluid since then. but what about the dangers of a feedback loop? then if things are being leaks to john, listen, so go mainstream newspapers then that's being fed back to president bible. there's just a feedback loop being created. that doesn't allow other pieces of information to come in, like say, a zalinski has no hope of this counter offensive, or how side will stay in power despite the american bombing of damascus. well, good intelligence presents alternatives, and the alternatives can true the pricing that we are alternatives should centrally as what's in the open source, what's in the secret sources, and how do you weight them in terms of the profit abilities of the alternative explanations and scenarios in that sites the open source helps you with

beating the, the mainstream press. how to check against some of those things that are in your secret sources. but not if uh, if i know you quote the chomsky in your 2015 book, if uh if the drums get an idea about manufacturing consent holds true just before. finally, if trump gets in, which he looks at to get in, whether it's from jail or whatever, he suddenly writing, i'm using the american people want them to be president according to opinion. both of you expect them to and they to and what does that mean for the united states as well? first i think it's not at all clear. the trump is going to get in the polls that one sees at this time are to some extent, not a good indication of the outcomes november. most people don't really pay attention to elections until after labor day, which is in september. so i don't, i don't think that some of these early polls are accurate in terms of assessing

whether trump or but when in, in the november it's, i don't think that trump is going to come back. but if i'm wrong and trump does come back, i think we'll have a negative effect on american alliances and american sauce power in like manner include week getting a need to bassinet has passed a resolution saying that count for any president cannot withdraw from data without consent. of the senate, but he could simply refuse to to spend money which was it is within his progress with that of course would have a severe damage spencer and i thank you. thank you. and that's it for the show. a continued condolences to those surviving beginning in gaza. the new book, a life in the american century, is that now will be back on monday with

a former leading contender to be president of ecuador. now supporting his reyland, sending weapons to zaleski and ukraine optimal change. you need to, so i'm just political asylum until then. keep in touch my role, that social media, if it's not sense of your country and i to our channel going on, you're going to be a normal. don't come to watch a new and old episodes of going underground 2 months. the more expensive and i'm here to plan with you. whatever you do, do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please. i do have the state department, the c i a weapons, bankers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time,

but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way. instead the suit has tie it out to a 120 for like, bombings on new lawn key and syrian territory. their response bias data has pulled out in washington, that sort of thing. the good news about in science, most of modern russian weapons, us of period to the phone council box as the company, the defense of minutes and releases the needs of some of the needs. bottled flu is outside is dropping out. some of the campaign and con units and now have it's, let's say the bottom of the southern city of rockland, even the hines at the destruction and this that and then one of.