up to 10 seconds or that basically when they buy the issues like these that are online means devoid bi line, we are safe show new position usually turns out to be comb, read in most instances. so we can then towards the left of your rights, depending on the side of the argument that we're trying some for john push. what i would say that, you know, as much as i have by us, it gives the user based on i see that the also helping to a games with regards to compliance. so for example, the just recently rehired, steve christie and so and they also trained some money to remove them money loading . so if we say that it's because what find as soon as i usually get the tone, if we turn the table at these ranges that you've, it's obviously not as also with completing. so this won't find it any depends on which side of the argument you are thinking is phone. oh, i think that's a great statement or that great closing statement from a friend me or that. busy the financial economist, but also rather goes to cyber o x, but have a 3 of us to have a gentleman. both of us be

a great pleasure. thank you very much for your time. i go thank you so much. can you say to south america quickly? where anger is boiling on the streets of one his eyes. again, protesters crushing with police softer a sweeping reform bill was put forward by the country's brand new president. the demonstrations and goals, the roads, law enforcement approach with the guns drawn and others lineup behind those riots you legislation, which sponsor theory positives for a total in congress. it does contain hundreds of points which would after and sweeping reforms. the new president saying it's simply amber, reversing years, it'd be kind of a decline. and we heard from some of the who have no interest in the check. good, i'm in. this is all part of mine. these grand plans they meet, which goes against around needs high, but every day everything is getting worse and worse for us, god. with these laws,

he shows because this is already have the knowledge and tina everything will only get what else they you know that they believe that the omnibus law cannot be appointments of any one on monday. just as the introduction of repressive practices by patricia bow rich cannot pass, but i think it is we are deprived of our rights are gonna negotiate. and here on the street we came out to defend when you really have a, it's a, it's just this. i think i'm in the fight before we go. some news just in here at austin international in moscow, local authorities and the little guns go public reporting. a ukrainian a rocket has hit the city of lucy chance results of getting multiple casualties. the strike destroyed a local bakery killing 2 civilians including 6 small that were transferred to the hospital. this is a developing situation and the emergency services on scene say there are potentially thousands more. still. trump, under the february, will keep you posted as we learn more like this is all to international life. it must go beyond the x to with more of your top headline news

. the sometimes a whistleblower does every thing right? he or she makes a revelation that is clearly in the public interest. the revelation is clearly a violation of the law and then he or she is even more clearly abused by the government. it would be great if the story is always had happy endings. unfortunately they don't i'm john kerry uncle, welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 today we're going to tell you about a bona fide hero. david mcbride is a former british army officer and as. busy we are with the australian special forces who blew the whistle on war crimes committed by australian soldiers in

afghanistan. after failing to raise a response through official channels. mcbride shared the information with the australian broadcasting corporation, which then published a series of major reports based on the material, bbc broadcast in 2017, led to a major inquiry that upheld many of mcbride's allegations. despite this, however, abc edits, journalist themselves came under threat of prosecution for their work on the story . mcbride himself was prosecuted for dissemination of official information. we'll tell you more about that in a moment, but let's go back a few years. david mcbride is a seasoned attorney. after studying for a 2nd law degree at oxford university, he joined the british military and eventually moved back to us trail. yeah. where he became a lawyer in the australian defense forces. in that role, he had 2 tours in afghanistan in 20112013. while on deployment,

mcbride became critical of the terms of engagement and other regulations that soldiers were working under, which he felt were endangering military personnel for the sake of political imperatives. determined elsewhere by 2014 mcbride had compiled a da ca, into profound command failings that saw examples of potential war crimes in afghanistan overlooked. and other soldiers wrongly accused his internal complaints were suppressed and ignored. mcbride's reports also looked at other matters, including the military's handling of sexual abuse allegations. after his use of internal channels had proven ineffective, mcbride gave his report to the police, and eventually he contacted journalist at abc. nbc is asked and files documented several incidents of australian soldiers killing on armed civilians, including children, and questioned the prevalent war culture in the special forces. subsequent to

mcbride's disclosures, the behavior of other coalition special forces in afghanistan, also came under sustained investigation. in many ways, mcbride's reports went further than the issues identified by abc, mid prevalent rumors. that australian troops were responsible for war crimes, questionable depths enough dentist in had led to calls for investigations in november 2020. the raritan report was finally published utterly vindicating allegations by mcbride and abc judge. paul barrington found evidence of multiple incidents involving australia and personnel that had led to $39.00 depths among his recommendations for the investigation of these incidents for possible future criminal charges. we'll talk about what happened next with our guest, david mcbride. david, thank you so much for being with us. thank you, john for having the to know. now the honors mine, i want to start with the bad news, david,

following your heroic actions following the findings by the raritan inquiry that you told the truth. the australian government still insisted on prosecuting you and a court decision on november 17th found that you could indeed be prosecuted. and the documents that you needed for the government to provide you for your defense could legally be withheld from your team. just as i did in an almost identical situation here in the united states, back in 2012, you elected to plead guilty to try to mitigate the damage. so what is next for you? when will you be sentenced and do you have any idea? what that sentence might be, i'll be say, just in march next year, 12 of bob's 2024, the judge. you can see that there's no guarantees but the into that some of the goals and intensive correction, or he said he get his test for that. that means i'd be fine,

get that. and there's not a guarantee. but if, if i do get that, that means i don't actually go behind the prison walls. but your, uh, you still get a sentence of 3 or 4 years. he's on your record as a prison sentence. can you just have to comply with very stringent conditions should be live bang on parole early august so he will blame it may be probably it will be quite difficult for me to ever come to the united states. for example, when i have to fill out on my full might be able to be cubic to the role of physics and i have to put to have 3 very big ones. i, there are ways around it is diag above and i see god might be on. so if you blacklist but which already be able to say actually, because i've got a little afraid to the united states like you and others. but i like to have to

keep these one data, so i would say that too much. yes, it's a do we? there was with said this before, but it the data to be set a guy. there's a, there's a lot of similarities between your case and my case. so yeah, there's a lot of big issues i've used to be if the universe has got a sense of humor and i think it sometimes does how you 6 sort of where you just feel a little bit. it's a theory. uh, just say, oh, well, for all john curiosity or he didn't have the origin, the faded seat, you know, in the u. s. at least up with less than a strategy and we've got a public interest defense. frank bought a lo and behold. whether or not the, the us is controlled like a strategy and lawyers but who knows, but the idea of a public interest, the face does not exist in australia anymore either. and i know more had

a public interest rates than you'd absolutely traffic. and as you said, i, i didn't even know the id, it was a palm and i should to me a year ago that i would play guilty. there was really no choice. and then the stride and called reading the revised, even though everybody was smiling and wearing waves and downs like it was on sort of all the british when it couldn't be there was very little difference between um the security code. what the you face, do me a street based in district of virginia or wherever was yes, where it was really just the style of this charge. all i, we understand is that not only was there no public interest to face, and the judge said, it doesn't matter. what it is, it doesn't matter whether it's the chief or the defense for stealing secrets to john up or taking bribes, or a pitiful reading with him to see your offices or cannibalism. e c,

a does not bad. and that was quite shocking. but e, as, as, as i examined to you, and not only that was, it's like a built in prices for the government. even if you were trying to improve something like that was going on. not that it would help you, but we're not even gonna allow you to bring up a as in as document know, see what it does. and that's the key. that's the key is from the very beginning. they simply will not allow you to defend yourself. so i wanted to ask you, if you could walk us through this mess, as soon as you made your revelations as an independent inquiry began, and it found quickly that you had told the truth and that war crimes had been committed by the military. yet here we are with you being the only person prosecuted in this case. you said correctly a moment ago that there are disturbing parallels between your case and my case. i

always hoped or i hoped over the last 13 years that what happened to me wouldn't happen to somebody else, but you had an almost identical experience. tell us about that. yeah, no, that's wrong. um, a guy in a few years ago. something like the, the expression, the, the post truth world would cause me to roll my eyes. but unfortunately that it is hard to just say that that's not an expression and it didn't matter. it never came into. it was never even conceded. it was never a fact uh where the one on the side was true. it was an effect uh where the one of the sign made that the country was being run by criminals or wondering, hopefully protected at the end of the die my. my face as was, australia is not being properly protected, right?

because the defense department doesn't project destroyer anymore. the defense department protects the government. and that's it for the serious, all like allegations. and you would say that you would have to, that's an exception if in fact country is not a properly protected by the people who are meant to do your reckon they'd want to find out whether that allegation is true. but it is very categories that you have, which i will either trial of that national security number, affective, be side dash, the securities are relevant, right? right, that's umbrella. but it's a really hot weather wherever it's almost you wouldn't solve it this way. it's irrelevant with the security services are actually doing the job or not. chris, what matters is that you do your job by keeping that fact secret, you know, as you and they really where it shows you have agreed to us. it's got when they

ended, i went to state of the weiss, i'm always sitting on the lower body posted and once i was arrested, i said look, i'm going to tell you the full story. i do not to begin with the a, you know, because i was still trying to get justice. but once i, i could say the version was on the line with new stories coming out. and people beginning to see that every sheet, it was a rise, the, the disney land in afghanistan, it'll, and things were quite different to what we tried. i tried gilby and i said, i'll just uh, i mean i gave you, i said i gave the documents a that much is true and but office justified and the police interviewed me were very fed. i had no problems with it. but i said they asked me these questions, which they store, which sort of trust me and i say, but when you gave your security clearance and you saw and off on side, right will say about damage. you would never release anything to the the,

the maybe or have a right. you clearly breaks that so that how we don't have to go any further. and i was like, no, we're not. well, i did my security players. it was only provides of asian duffy like, you know, we, we do is out of raj, you gigi, to protect the distributors national security. and if i say some of these, which absolutely does a guides that which is good. i actually by destroying the west side, i don't care whether it's an official policy going on. if it is something which goes against the very values that we are meant to be protecting. i'm obviously going to, uh do something about it. um, you know, it lot, you know, you get the safety safety briefings on an airplane, and this is doug, do this to do that right now if you have to do so, the ego order stuff, the airplane, aggression, to be less, as i said, some of them i think it was 3 in

a lines with the the junior all it was to escape still a senior paula heading towards the mouth and then the aggression to the bad. now i remember that where the rule is, you got to was senior part of what to do. do a certain exceptions. i never see was that they would never be any exemptions where i would have to go. they. yeah. and especially if i school and astride, has their social security. was the dumb down and just like you the old guys, this has nothing to do with my career all this. no, no, the honest you're not at all i issue and, and i can, i can attest to that. i know you, we're friends. i know that this, this certainly had nothing to do with your career. this was, this was about violations of the law and hold that side if you will. we're speaking with famed australia national security was the blower. david mcbride about his positively task. ask experience, blowing the whistle on the australian military's war crimes in afghanistan. david, stay right there. with us, we're going to take a short break,

but please stay tuned. when we come back, we're going to talk about what's next for david mcbride. and what he has received from the whistle blowing community see to the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the, the watching wires and why in this contort if i give but plenty of the store and this, this is chad and i showed order for not imagine just a last name scare me. and when i am at your desktop session i am no let's just sean. your just is when you mine is when you sit on the with the the, the,

the welcome back to the list of lawyers. i'm john kerry. uncle, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower. david mcbride. good . have you been with us? david, thanks for joining. thank you john. david we, national security was of lowers, especially in the us australia and the u. k. all stick together. we're all friends . we all remain in touch, i'm proud to call you a friend. what kind of support if you received from the whistle blowing community and from the list of like n g o's, have they done anything to help make this experience a little bit more tolerable? well, is the party like another wizard law, and i saw you in the city by surprise actually. um bill bosh tribunals julia miss andre a shield by at a g levels are 2 i thought you were going to be appearing by video going well i

have to sneak into australia to tell you the truth. a. yeah, that was such a joy and um, uh yeah, i'm surprised and i wouldn't let josie many of you know. and so, but yeah, that was stem was such a joy and i saw in you twice and we had a bit of a lot of what really helped me was it when you told me about doing tell. i'm like a saw i see to it maybe that was on the fine, but i know what he met you once. and because i bid you, you know, i, i feel like you know what you're in the right. and that really helped me because you don't necessarily, well, when you get a job, you worked in the business and you don't necessarily need accommodated secrecy. but you do need somebody to say, yeah, rock on. that's the use of the categories because is that once you receive it, that it does help a little bit just uh yeah, a little kids

a nice not say the done yourself all about that. well, i like to see if it helps me. i don't know whether it'll do you obviously use spine analogies, but i am, well, i like to use the analogy, useful literature and end up costing you asked as the other side that you have, you know, in um whether it's the load of the rings or somebody there are, there are bad forces that they haven't done expected to ever just suddenly get go to the, the like holes and you evade like big backs and you take them out with the store. yeah. yeah, that's right. of a cetera. there are just some, you know, bad dude. yeah, there and, and you got to fly them and you just have to extend it is there's a few more than i expected. but uh, you know, it may say it was a lucky visit this quarter, and that's where one reason i've been very lucky. you are

a bit lucky besides the mcginn, not the only one that's right anymore, and it's about 6 to this industry. and that makes such a difference because the government, but i'm sure they tried this with you, but they try and have any kind of was of law whether your corporate oh god. but gets the side seat and the media points at all. he was that he was a described to he or she was a crazy person or didn't live right. and back inside that would made that tried that would make it then this other guy and the tax office. and there's another guy from the about the banking and there's another guy about the police and it starts to wherever a big scene for the public, but nice style 0 crazy paper roll me started. so just meeting with the baby, daddy would have to say their budget as we did with you. that's right. i think i have a particular born with you because you're in that you're reading the security business and nobody understands the military's less security complex. mike,

but not not the posts. and you, you handle yourself with which such grace as you might as have viewed um, and that as far as make that makes me lift myself due to your level one of the side that the one of the, one of the important purposes is life is to surround yourself with data of people better than yourself. that's right. and you know, at least yourself to the level. so i really enjoyed it. i love stayed with the program. it gives me hype. it's very slick. it's very professional, and it's a good t h. a good to be bought of david, i have to say that the government success in your case was international news i, i actually learned about it in the american press and it immediately became a major topic of conversation in whistleblower circles. honestly, people here, people who, you know, people like,

like general and radar can thomas drake and bill benny were outraged. what, what is the media reaction been in australia after the raritan findings? it would seem to me that the media ought to be outraged. has that been the case? hey, elizabeth masvie again time and i never did the powerful voices. i tried to say, oh, well, how the cases i have a, a was rarely about little grimes and um, uh, a and you, your son was good and it just is in your case, it's hard to get people to care about it. the way i see was a more, or i'm throughout top all the story, but then we're on the top and, and actually the truth, whether or not the best public can understand the as, as in the georgia, minimize, the truth is much worse than just the people at the bottom,

doing the wrong thing. that's really too terrible. say is that people looked at tall, adeline charging, we're covering up with and that's always paid my focused and, and so there was a meeting with you, a bit of a role across the 1st my reputation. we went down and they were like, oh he's not really, we says he isn't minutes the come up because i was able to come out and so i always prayed about the leadership and i done my dad show on life. a matter of fact, i probably got a bit more support because there was, there's a certain amount of conservatives in australia who, who without knowing much about my ties didn't but you like me because i sort of style, you know, soul just make it to have a hard job and i shouldn't be no, we shouldn't stick and guess their opinions back in the strider advantage. they've sort of a, some sort of lady ha, they have, i know that they hopefully have to,

they dying attention. i now know that that's not the types it was it. um to bob wasn't any kind of lady. huh. are they know little island, rolando and various other places like the uh is it was a goal. i said lot, and i'm so i like you, you are not for the next, you know, right a, but by yeah, and even the people who are on the, the special forces saul just a complaint about all the special forces they will be bleeding out for you but i just said there was a law i'm and we crossed the law, i'm 80 is a problem and it's not enough for the biggest. if any namby pamby the by you will start to become a criminal organization. if we side, these are the rules, but we don't follow the rules because it doesn't stop there. and david, you and i of course, have both follow the julian assigned case very closely. we both tried to be as

helpful as possible. it's hardening that after all these years, julian has finally begun attracting some attention from, from australian parliamentarians, official australians. has there been much in the way of official support for you and for your your whistle blowing there, there have to be members of parliament to have to have a pines that you've performed really a great public service. has there been that kind of a reaction? yeah, there's the green, the green bar, and you who are much more than just an environmental body bad. and i have been very good, i ended and we had a bit of a revolution, a genuine rentals shooting out politics. and then like the us, we really just have 2 bodies and they're pretty much the sign, right. it's an illusion to think that their, their rent was changed to ready to blow, to rented below, and nothing really just. but in the last election we had a whole lot of people literally like all the tails. there were sort of off grain

off and, and i why the is the 9 and is a, a the balance of power now, a nice support. okay, good. um, well i say balance of power is i got a job, i really do it easy. but what do you think the pressure of i did a cold since you did that on a crunchy. so based upon them, it would be hard for them to really be in jail for a long period of time because they, they do have enough table. they don't have enough people to do anything. but there's enough people now to keep the so, so be a naming some other the consent to use the right when i now stretching the hedge, because as me can find back father, when, um, some, uh, some of the sort of progressive. so, you know, he was really drawn around what he was trying to protect bad table. some of the

conservatives the, like what he was trying to protect solve is it did nothing wrong, right. and he's not such a bad cause, or there's a bit, i think the bottom line is fusion. the bottom line is we are, we are either our, our countries are either going to be nations governed by the rule of law or, or they're not one or the other. and it's people like you that have ensure that, that we will be david mcbride. thank you so much for joining us and god speed in this awful experience may have passed quickly. the reverend doctor martin luther king told us in the mid 19 sixty's, that's a more our computer verse is a long budded fence toward justice. that is true, justice sometimes takes years sometimes decades, sometimes life times. but right is right. david mcbride is on the right side of history. the next few years may be tough for him, but he will take his place in that pantheon of those who put the wellbeing of innocence above their own well being. the world is

a better place because of that. thanks for joining us for another episode or for whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the public sentence, and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do, do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do the have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do. don't marshall state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called directory, but again,

we don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way inside the yeah. so the pull people are killed as us. it strikes rain down on targets across the syria and iraq. and the size of a situation in the middle east is a typical me. the lease is a little boy you that they can just pull it. i can see that that's any dog. i'd like them to read, see, is a domino, a domino effect. russia finds the u. s. s. drives on syria, and the rod sang, washington has never looked at the solutions and continues on the part just so destruction can. you also have costs in the middle. it's kind of a little gone through a public the city over like a child's coming under ukrainian fine.