[000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to was a part of a single desk is a tragedy. a 1000000 deaths are statistics while they also ship, all of these aphorism, is still debated. it does reflect accurately the desensitizing effect of mass violence has on the human side. can't the bigger or longer the suffering, the harder it is to relate to it on

a personal level. the case in point is the palestinian question on the result for over 17 years and still in many, many thousands of depths. what is there to the palace thing and story beyond the mounting desktops and customary international inaction? will discuss that. i'm now joined by jamal, conch, years based engineer, an officer of children of catastrophe journey from a palestinian refugee camp to america. mr. crunch. it's a pleasure to talk to thank you very much for your time. likewise, thank you. now your life story is pretty spectacular. being born in the refuge account with no or little rights civil rights, and then moving across the world, getting a good education, pursuing and engineering career. discussing your life story on television. now, do you consider yourself exceptionally lucky because i assume this is not a typical faith for a kid born in their refuge account. you know,

i honestly wouldn't because of the most of exceptional because it is this type yellow people who are born on an in a call or send me a copy, especially if you're familiar with i'm so the longer with the palestinian story and growing up and appreciate cams, i haven't been administered by under while, which is now and then use that. i hopefully would be able to address some of those issues that are related to today's in yours under law, establish a school system and accounts and basically produce that. i would say one of the most highly educated jeanette ation from those 50 g cabs. i was quoted, you know, they created asian that ation out the pieces of catastrophe. and i was lucky and the way more than that exceptional, i was lucky to be in a position that i place possibly that i time to be able to pursue my education

beyond the basic education provided by. i know that was speaking about the refugee camps and you were born and raised in the not everybody that posting in refuge account, i hope i pronounced that correctly. it was in the bundle and, and you made some very astute observations in your book about how this comes time to structure with themselves as a sort of to produce a sort of replica of themselves everywhere. the palestinians settle collectively preserving the social and their times even geographical fabric as much as possible . and i think this is one of the major reasons why the palestinian identity has been able to preserve and solve despite all the you know, displacement and see through the decades. can you talk more about that? because it basically became, i call a little palace fun and live as a to i grew up and live in all my young life until i went to college in the states . but i would say to the camp was,

what as far as i'm concerned is lifted palestine and with they belong. and i never told i wasn't living on i older. so that was in the palace fun. but we've been living on the account was divided like you said, you know, immediately after, uh they with this place or expelled from their homes. they basically, they can buy, you can see the piece of behind me that the video was beat fast. uh, one of the best pictures in the 1950s when the camp was established and it was the best as as tense as you could see it. but it can, it just, it seems like it's kind of the village is worth it from palestine. so when you look at the cab, it was divided between the villages. i became very familiar with the villages a pallet spun without the butler study in history. i mean, it wasn't something that happens naturally. was there some designed to it? yeah, i actually, it did because it was that like a familiar goal,

your family is moved altogether. so it's family or other tabs on the 10th from the same village. basically they went on and set an in an area within the camp. and as an attempt to develop the, you know, beyond the, the tents that you can see behind me. and they also start developing villages wise . so the cat was, you know, i mean, we are from the north palestine part of the 1948. and you could look on what was on find almost all that village is from $94.00 to divided with them that cab each one and the own small section i visited. but just the story of not as bad as can uh, but it is the story of also all the other cam split. it says live and i know to see it in a in jordan, as i was reading about your story. it also occurred to me that this lack or,

you know, limit that drives the palestinians, had in those kinds of b as in syria or 11 on had a silver lining. uh, ironically, start to keep them sort of together to preserve them together as, as, as a collective may be in, in the, in the adapt desperate, but still keeping them together. am i right to conclude that? yeah, you're very right and actually that's why i said that the beginning i felt i was in the let the palestine we've been living on because exactly of those conditions that were created around the us. i mean there was some law somebody galatians, i mean don't get me wrong. i mean the host contest, they did their best to commit that palestinians and the needs. but still, we were limited or i, but it's it to be able to work and function outside the camps. it was very limited because became basically, i would say, a source of cheap labor for farm farms and construction workers within,

within lebanon. but it was very difficult and challenging for palestinians to be able to work and, and then a professional jobs like engineering law, the teaching and things of that nature. now i know it's a very hard question to answer, but what is a palestinian identity at this point? i mean, is there a space for anything beyond resistance, resentment, or revenge? you know, i, i would define the spinning identity basically the colors that i go to for all the palestinians. i mean, i feel, you know, or have an affinity to, to like, my fellow at palestine isn't that if he caps because of the way we live in that it gets to because we share the same level of suffering. so we basically, i feel like we all enjoyed life together and i think that's what really what really brought us to good that. and then of course after that, and it developed within more, i would say political conscious level. and that's including the, the, the,

on the resistance of the past 10 years, which was basically the, presented by the palestine evaluation organization. this is actually why you, i'm getting me a perfectly to my next question because i know the appear join the palestinian, elaborate liberation organization at the tender age of 11. and that's about the age of my son who's still sleeps of his toys and plays with plastic swords, but he is nowhere mature enough to understand the intricacies of policy or, or history. let alone the use of militant tactics. did you understand what you were getting yourself into that age? yeah, you know, it's as natural. i think the brain good. i mean, nobody told me not. i mean my dad, my mom, they never told me that i need to do that or time. uh and honestly, i, when i put the book together, when i was typing that i was looking at my kid, my tip was above that is, and i said, my god,

i cannot believe i did what i did. you know, because of exactly what you, what you just said about your, on the, you know, it killed it. but yeah, i mean, i really want it, i, i, i joined a group of other kids about the same age basically. when we don't know if from the account, because at that time, by the way it was illegal to join the, the palestinian. i'll start with a live on. so we basically have to run away from the syria at the so in the can, i mean in the military they can do to get training. and i, i must say i was the support. the mean. i've explained that in the book when, when david texted us, because of all our age, basically they, well our dogs go back to school. and i think maybe that's what really made me more determined than that. i should maybe go back to school if, if i thought told me that i need to go back to school, then maybe i'd have more likely to get to palestine in

a different way. how do you think contemporary palestinian teenagers, especially in those living and gaza? uh, how are they different from what you were like at the age? i honestly don't think the much the by the way i didn't think goes up what are but 67 months back in 1997 looked in 98. and i visited also that if he kept that, which basically i felt i was home, the only place i felt i was home is when i went into a camp and data for jacob and guys that because it was that heavily cup of my cab as if it was designed by the same it, the architect basically and, and it children grow in and goes, i then in the same way i grew up and i feel it today. and i look at the children today and gaza. as a prius, v is the genocide. i feel like i would have been there in the same age. i went back to the same way that acting basically

a little more mature than, than the, till the, that it is anywhere in the world. is there anything that access, for example to education? you mentioned the, you're an agency responsible for providing a to the palestinians. it's funding has been suspended as far as i'm just done by western countries. do you think, you know, contemporary children have the same access to the basic services as you have because from the story and you're describing in the book and it looks like you know, that, that lives should be a much more challenging than yours for a, you know, it's a lot more challenging today. i mean, you have to remember even another law uh united nation of the final occasion. so you for ballast and that if he is that was a separate established in 1950. it had this not even a level of funding at that time. i mean, at the time when i grew up in the cab, i must say that they were able to provide

a lot more services that they do now today because of the cuts. i mean, i know i basically to day i would have to say i opened aides on the, you know, very minimal budget as if i could cut his into what they used to have a and bed. of course, going to effect the children and goes on and they really weird in and by the way i know um and it is just about 50 pounds less than that if he comes through uh the age of but now go some good thing on guys uh and, and the children today, i would say, besides the being able to provide them with the level of education. i mean, you know, look up the war today. i'm doing that. but the schools are being targeted by is a forces because they really don't want to have support to dictate children here. i, if you allow me to mention, there was a, a study report that was prepared by the, as a most, a, a,

a foot and affairs back in line in the after might be in 4 to 8. and basically said, well, you know, all these palestinians are the best is going to be survive the initial process. and best would be, uh, it would join the poor us or the board and up into you and the police. that's exactly the vision of design. that's the end of after 1948 and this is exactly what they are, the one in gaza. now, mr. country, we have to take a short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned,

or the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also absurd. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deal. so let me let me on. you have very quick propaganda. you know a price here in your i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. some more questions ask a better. the answer is, will be the

welcome back to hundreds of par expense and jamal cons, years based engineer, and also all the children of catastrophe or journey from a palestinian refuge account to america. now let's talk about contemporary politics because you have argued that is rarely prime minister benjamin netanyahu really wants to wake up to the news that the is really hostages have been killed so that he can pursue this conflict more aggressively. how far do you think, could you go? because the judging from the video is coming from guys of the level of aggression is already pretty maximal. you know, is going to much similar as it as much as he could, to be honest with you, with the guy. i mean, nothing, you know, as far as input his political, political, a lot and personal life and a political like being able to stay in as a prime minister. and he would be able to stay, potentially, or live. he has a prime minister for as long as the work continues. and of course,

also from the personal level is that continue with vision of what it would help him avoid the criminal convictions and quotes. and those are the course and that he has gone a to avoid know what he has achieved, the 20 percent or more than 20 percent of what you wanted is basically having all the is evaluated captives a till. and then he had, you know, the acknowledges that they have killed the around, i believe it's $55152.00. and that's because of band aids. i mean they, they are, it, i would say a natural target when, when they are targeting the palestinians blindly everywhere, whether they are in schools at hospitals and also infrastructure systems. so they aren't going to be di and i wouldn't be surprised. i mean, that guy is fighting for his life anymore. beautiful. continue until the last minute until unless somebody purchased with him to do they ended with in the big

windows i of course, and of course, from outside. but the part, as long as america provides him with the protection that he needs or, or provide his program genocide program with the protection to proceed. i really don't have much hope to be honest with now, i don't mean to draw any historical parallels, but i think it's worth mentioning here that some historians believed that the reason, the main reason why germany was on the losing side in both world wars was because its leadership decided to pursue it through military means certain targets that cannot be achieved through military means. for example, they were trying to get more territory or what they called the labor and the room in austin, the living space in the east while also clearing that potential living space from the large number of indigenous people now um from

a logistical point of view of putting aside all the morality from a logistical point of view, do you think is a real as a safe can solve what it sees as the policy in, in problem through military means it's, it's impossible. it is. you know, if there is no, it has not been happened in history. let's put it this way. i mean, if you look at what they want to look at the precedence that has not be about been an occupation when it maintained its presence for ever meaning, put as long as palestinians exist about spending the exist. well that in that if you g caps and guys out in the cities of gaza or in the future, you can even outside guys. i mean, our presence will be there. and as a by the 30 means a will love to be able to squash the palestinian demand for their lives to go back to their homes and also to, to, to, to establish their own independence. they uh, there is a sense of auto goals, and this is

a really important what you just said. where do you with compared to have is that accept competitive between that and the nazi because of that see, you know, where they have that put it together out against where they want to be able to establish their own area and unique a's all but they had opinions uh it would appear on codes, as you said, it was, it is exactly what what, what the who believes and he will. he really believes that in his vision that he would be able to dominate the whole reason for the power. and i did it, like i said they us thrive that investment. they tie that in, in, uh, and i've gone a sub and they the, you know, this is to do exactly the same thing and they wouldn't have the same. and now i, i also heard you saying that you believe with me is that the palestinians are now being sacrificed by the west. because the once wants to atone for it, seeing of ignoring the human eye zation of the jews in europe in the past. even

though it were, it were not only the jews who were dehumanized, but um, they sort of idea suggest that there is um, and i'll send, take sensitivity or, or intolerance in the west towards different when i zation. is that really the case when we look at the ways the united states or it's alice have what the recent wars, you know, it is very, very, yeah, that's pretty important. i, i do really, really bad. and this is, you know, how this could be a little discussion as far as the dehumanization of the jews and the time to make up for what happened to the jews. and you are, by the end, you advise it wasn't just the jews but, but as an automatic identity, i suppose, uh, because of what they chapman's the, you know, the, that actually to the joys in gen money and then they have an ad. but in the countries, i think it gives a sense, so you know, i don't want this sense of guilt that is set of pass and this is the problem in it's passing, the, the, the, the, the,

their own and humanity. when that it was forget about the now the oppression and the genocide that this taken place to all those by the victims of it on the crimes . and then this is the of the, the costs of the problem. they are going to try to do it for as much as they can, but it to be just a point where they cannot do it anymore. and it is much more clear today. and guys, as they start taking a different position than what they did, you're using them, but they have a lot of one after another to follow. and by then to go to this uh, uh, and nothing else. she's in an install ability. what, what it is basically what they did, they enabled him to do what he is the one, whether they like it or not. they are the ones who need me to enable nothing. yeah . who to commit the genocide and garza today. now it's picking on this issue alpha

sort of atonement guilt. i recently came across a very point in closed by the martinique and put a mess as our who said back in 1955 a decade after the end of the world war 2. that was immoral european cannot forgive to hitler is not the crime itself. the crime against man, not the humiliation of man is such it is the crime against the white man. and the fact that he hibler applied to your, of the colonies procedures which until then had been reserved, exclusively for the arabs in old jerry. the cool is in india, do you think this division into higher and lower humans still exist in how western morality assessed as various conflicts? so much so, so much so i mean, the, the worst looks at the number list on coach sounds basically,

or the developing countries, basically as less than a human being. and that is obvious today in the way of a cover then use in palestine. i mean, i, you know, i like anybody else, i watch all the manage the news media in the west. and it is one sided to completely one sided. and as if the other side does not have venue, when they went on, this lady is killed, they might have sent them by name. and even the one bid is and is the only claim that is false. they present it as it is true, one of and i actually and, and, and that's a god i o was say, the man and been between court the court a free me. yeah. because it is a really man, is the media in the worst in other places they, the west would be caught in that sense of shape. but, and, and when they do it themselves, it's just manage. and they want to be able to, uh, you know, present one side, but then the other it is so much so that you know,

$27.00 or 20, if 1000 palestinian did is, is not even a quote to, you know, about 1200 is the unit killed you know, it had never happened in history where they, u. s. media had accepted to allow another country to not allow it to go inside to cover that. but the events, i mean they are not even allowed in america has to go inside goes to elizabeth and but did the with the is that i the army? so the kid basically spoke pessimist with as i e r. mr. con to i heard you a quote and is really writer before who wrote that every person lives in a place but with the palestinians. the place lives in them, and i think the same, couldn't decide about the jews to vickers. if we look at the jewish history of eric, painful jewish history in the 9 tenths or the 20th century, many of the horrible things that we're down to,

to the jews now being done by these really stay to the palestinians. i wonder if you have any ideas of how this vicious circle of collective violence of collective punishment could this talk. you know, i was a look at it. it's is, it's almost like, i don't want to compare it to animals because always be in the human to do that. but, but it is, it becomes a lot of survival. and that's a said, i mean, and that's the to, if i do believe the jews were oppressed in the west. and i do believe that they were targeted as a, as a group and, and then political scientists and came and basically it didn't present to the vision, i would say over the oppression whereby they believe that the only way they could sort of buy buy possibly, or pressing on other people by doing it exactly to the other people, what had done to, to, to that it was. and that is the, the, the,

the problem with political science in which it creates a divide. there is one, a very important distinction is that the use in your or for defense less. i mean they didn't have the means to defend themselves, but the is rarely state is not defenseless and supported by very might the military's of, of the world. so they can find the solutions, diplomatic, military, and whatever economic solutions if they want to. they have the means of doing that . it will, it, that's the issue of a political solution being acknowledged in the presence of the palestinians. and you'll have to remember what is what is referred to palestinians always refer to them. it ups as if somebody came from someone else and came to a palace like they don't even actually their word, palestinians, for palestinians who remained even in palestine after 1940. and they still call them, you know, ups as of this and out of my know that it's not a lot of minority is their national minority. and they are the palestinians. and

this is, this is again, the crux of the they, they put as a political scientism. they have to deny the existence of the palace thing is to be able to justify the process on the land a to as also you remember, i am sure they have a more daughter saying that it lands with that people for people with that bad. i mean, i, i tell i didn't even believe that they would be able to argue that and even the lord would accept it as, as, as, as he ality went, palestine was the, the, the theatre o, many innovators and 16 at least 16 in pairs or the empires occupied palace done to throw out of history all the way through the to say it's the way through wards one, landlord war 2 and, and then they would come and say, or to land with that i, people. and it is legally in 3rd tend and that was the side, the effects up to even in the was and it wouldn't go through a lot of people's existence. then you are able to justify your oppression. i guess

those who do not even exist pop. so that's why i don't really agree with your point about that, but i'm trying to atone for the, for the has some so some moral sin because clearly they're not seeing it as a sin. and if you look at the, the pulses historically it is uh, a tried and tested practice, but mr. country have to leave it there for a time constraints, but it's been great talking to thank you very much for that. likewise, thank you. i really appreciate you having and talking about this important subject . thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again, one of all the parts the,

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the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the, it's a cry for freedom of supporters of the julian at dodge, making that feelings clear. right outside that you guys hi, cold, the hearing takes place it with final appeal against extradition to america, from forces taking a key location on the battlefield of that kind of southern regions. following last week, the capture of the cap basically pushing ukraine even further back from the front