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hello and welcome to was a part of a single task is a tragedy, a 1000000 death, par statistic. well, they also ship all of these ask for isn't, is still debate if it does reflect accurately the desensitizing effect, the mass violence has on the human side. can the bigger or longer the suffering, the harder it is to relate to it on a personal level? the case in point is the palestinian question on the result for over 17 years and still in many, many thousands of depths. what is there to the palestinian story beyond the mounting desktops and customary international inaction? will discuss that. i'm now joined by jamal, conch, years based engineering and officer of children of catastrophe, journey from a palestinian refugee camp to america. mr. crunch. it's a pleasure to talk to thank you very much for your time. likewise,

thank you. now your life story is pretty spectacular. being born in the refuge account with no or little rights civil rights is that moving across the world, getting a good education, pursuing and engineering career, discussing your life story on television. now, do you consider yourself exceptionally lucky because i assume this is not a typical faith for a kid born in their refuge account. you know, i honestly wouldn't consider myself exceptional because it goes described below people who are born on an in a call or send me a kind of specially if you're familiar with i'm so the longer with the palestinian story and growing up individually, cams, i haven't been administered by under while, which is now and then use that. i hopefully would be able to address some of those issues that are related to today's, in yours under what is the best school system in the accounts. and basically they do is, i would say one of the most highly educated jeanette ation from those 50 jacobs. i

was quoted, you know, they create it. isn't that ation out the pieces of catastrophe and i was lucky and where i am more than that exceptional. i was lucky to be in a position that i place possibly that i time to be able to pursue my education beyond the basic education provided by. i know that was speaking about the refugee camps and you were born and raised in the novel. and by that posting and refuge account, i hope i pronounced that correctly. it was in the bundle and, and you made some very astute observations in your book about how this comes time to structure with themselves as a sort of to produce a sort of replica of themselves everywhere. the palestinians settle collectively preserving the social in their times. even geographical fabric as much as possible . and i think this is one of the major reasons why the palestinian identity has

been able to preserve and solve despite all the you know, displacement and sage through the decades. can you talk more about that? because it basically became, i call it, it looked at the palace fun and live as a to i grew up and live in all my young life until i went to college in the states . but i would say to the camp was, what, as far as i'm concerned is lifted palestine and within the livelong. and i never told i wasn't living on i oldest. so that was in the sun, but we've been living on the account was divided like you said, you know, immediately after, uh they with this place or expelled from their homes the basically the cam. but you can see the patient behind me that really was beat fast uh, one of the 1st pictures of the 1950s when the camp was established. and it was the best as, as tense as you could see it. but it can, it just, it seemed like it tended the villages with it from palestine. so when you look at

the car, it was divided between different villages. i became very familiar with the villages and palace fun without the better study in history. i mean, it wasn't something that happened naturally. was there some designed to it? yeah, i actually a bit because it was a like a familiar goal. your family has moved on together. so it's family or other tabs on a fence from the same village. basically they went on and set an area within the camp and as the attempt to develop the, you know, beyond the, the tents that you can see behind me. and they also start developing villages wise . so the cat was, you know, i mean we are from the north palestine part of the 19 for to and you could look on was on find almost all that village is from 1948 divided with them that cab each

one and the on the small section i visited, but just the story of not as bad as come. uh but it is the story also all the other if you can split it so live and i know don't see it in a in jordan as i was reading about your story. it also occurred to me that this lack or you know, limit that drives that the palestinians had in those kinds of b and cereal or 11 on how the silver lining uh, ironically saw to keep them sort of together to preserve them together as, as, as a collective may be in uh, in the, in the adapt desperate, but still keeping them together. am i right to conclude that? yeah, you are very right. and actually that's why i said that the beginning i felt i was in the lifted palestine. we've been living on because exactly of those conditions that were created around us. i mean there was some law somebody galatians,

i mean don't get me wrong. i mean the host contests. they did their best to have committed palestinians and the needs. but still, we were limited or a bit of it to be able to work and function outside the camps. it was very limited because became basically, i would say, a source of cheap labor for farm farms and construction workers within, within lebanon. but it was very difficult and challenging for palestinians to be able to work and, and then have professional jobs like engineering, law, teaching and things of that nature. now i know it's a very hard question to answer, but what is palestinian identity at this point? i mean, is there a space for anything beyond resistance, resentment, or revenge? you know, i, i would define the spinning identity basically the color. so i get it for all the palestinians. i mean, i feel, you know, or have an affinity to,

to like my fellow town experience and then very few c caps because of the way we live in that it gets because we share the same level of suffering. so we basically, i feel like we're all enjoying life together and i says that's what really, what really brought us to good that. and then of course, after that, it developed within more, i would say political conscious level. and that's including the, the, the, on the resistance of the past 10 years, which was basically the, presented by the palestine evaluation organization. this is actually why you are letting me perfectly. so my next question, because i know the appear join the palestinian, elaborate liberation organization at the tender age of 11. and that's about the age of my son who's still sleep some of his toys and plays with plastic swords. but he is nowhere mature enough to understand the intricacies of policy or, or history. let alone the use of militant tactics. did you understand what you were

getting yourself into that age? yeah, you know, it's as natural. i think the brain good. i mean, normally it's all be not. i mean, my dad, my mom been over told me that i need to do that or time. and honestly, i, when i put the book together, when i was typing, that was lieutenant my kid. my tip was a by that is, and i said, my god, i cannot believe i did what i did. you know, because of exactly what you, what you just said about your on the, you know, it killed it. but yeah, i mean, i really want it, i, i, i joined the group of other kids about the same age basically. when we didn't know if from the account, because at that time, by the way it was illegal to join the the policy and you started out with a live in a so we basically have to run away from the syria at the showing the cam i made in the military, i can do to get training and i,

i must say i was the support. did i mean i've been back in the book when one day the directed us for a because of all our age basically there. well, our dogs go back to school and i think maybe that's what really made me more determined than that. i should maybe go back to school if, if i thought told me that i need to go back to school, then maybe i have more likely to get to palestine in a different way. how do you think contemporary palestinian teenagers, especially in those living and gaza? how are they different from what you were like at the age? i honestly don't think the much the by the way i didn't think goes up. what are but 67 months back in 1997 looked in late in the 8. and i visited also that if he kept that, which basically i felt i was home, the only place i felt i was home is when i went into a cabinet that if you take up and goes up because it was the empty cup of mike as if it was designed by the same it, the architect basically and,

and it children grow in and goes, i then in the same way i grew up and i feel it today. and i look at the children today and gaza as a prius v. as the genocide, i feel like i would have been there in the same age. i went back to the same way that acting basically a little more mature then then the to the that it is anywhere in the world. and there is thing the access, for example to education. you mentioned the, you're an agency responsible for providing a to the palestinians. it's funding has been suspended as far as understanding by western countries. do you think, you know, contemporary children have the same access to the basic services as you have because from the story and you're describing in the book and it looks like you know,

that, that lives should be a much more challenging than yours for a, you know, it's a lot more challenging today. i mean, you have to remember even under law uh, united nation, the final work agency for ballast. and that if he is that was a separate established in 1950. it had this not even a level of funding at that time. i mean, at the time when i grew up in the cab, i must say that they were able to provide a lot more services that they do now today because of the cuts. i mean, i know i basically today i would have to say i opened aides on the, you know, very minimal budget as if the competitors into what they, they used to have. and that, of course, is going to effect the children and goes on. and they really weird in and by the way i know um and it is just about 50 pounds less than that if he comes through uh the age of. but now the thing on does uh, an end for children today. i would say beside love being able to provide them with

the level of education. i mean, you know, look up the world today. i mean, did the schools are being targeted by is a union forces because they really don't want to have support to dictate children here. i, if you allow me to mention, there was a, a study report that was prepared by that as a most, a, a, a foot and affairs back in line in the aftermath in 48 and, and basically said, well, you know, all these palestinians are the best is going to be survive. it's vanessa look process. and but as with the, uh, it will join the poor us or the board and up into you and the beats. that's exactly the vision of design this oh, and after 1948. and this is exactly what they are, the one in gaza. now, mr. country, we have to take a short break right now,

but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned or the bottom of the wi fi of proof. it will show you what it was, but anyway, you know, the of them that

you do not have. yeah, yes. you do as well as the brother product, the ocean of this on my own or some of the welcome back to hundreds of parts. vince and jamal, conch, years based engineer, and also are all the children of catastrophe your journey from

a palestinian roughly to come to america. now let's talk about the contemporary politics because you have argued that is rarely prime minister benjamin netanyahu really wants to wake up to the news that the is really hostages have been killed so that he can pursue this conflict more aggressively. how far do you think, could you go? because the judging from the video is coming from guys of the level of aggression is already pretty maximal. you know, it is going to much similar as it as much as you could, to be honest with you, with the guy. i mean, nothing, you know, as far as him for his political, political, life, and personal life. and i put a think a lot medium to stay in as a prime minister, and he would be able to stay potentially, or likely as a prime minister for as long as the work continues. and of course, also a problem. the personal level is that continue with vision of what it would help him avoid the criminal convictions and courts. and those are the course and that he has gone to

a point to know what he has achieved the 20 percent or more than 20 percent of what did you want to do is basically having all the is evaluated captives a till. and then he had, you know, the acknowledges that they have killed the around, i believe it's $55152.00. and that's because of band aids. i mean, they, they are, it, i would say a natural target when, when they are targets in the palestinians blindly everywhere, whether they are in schools at hospitals and also introspection systems. so they aren't going to be di and i wouldn't be surprised. i mean, the guy is fighting for his life anymore. beautiful. continue until the last minute until unless some of the purchasing have to do with him and that within the, within those aisles of course, and of course, from outside. but the board as one does america, provides them with the protection that he needs or,

or provide his pro graham is on the side program with the protection to proceed. i really don't have much hope to be honest with now, i don't mean to, i'm drawing a historical parallels, but i think it's worth mentioning here that some historians believed that the reason, the main reason why germany was on the losing side in both world wars, was because its leadership decided to pursue it through military means certain targets that cannot be achieved through military means. for example, they were trying to get more territory or what they called the labor and threw in austin the living space in the east while also clearing that potential living space from the large number of indigenous people. now, um, from the logistical point of view of putting aside all the morality from a logistical point of view, do you think is a real as

a stave can solve what it sees as the palestinian problem through military means it's, it's impossible it, you know, it, there is no, it has not been happened that has 30 let's put it this way. i mean, if you look at it, when i look at the precedence that has not yet been an occupation when it maintained its presence for ever. i mean, for as long as palestinians exist about has been the exist. well that in that if you g camps and guys out in the cities of gaza and i need to get a copy of an outside guys. i mean, our presence will be there and is the 30 millions will not be able to squash the palestinian and demand for their lives to go back to their homes and also to, to, to, to establish their own independence. they uh, there is a sense of auto ghost and this is a really important what you just said. where you would compare to have his that except competitive between that and the nazi. because that i see, you know,

where they had that political outcomes, where they want to be able to establish their own area. and even the case over the peons. uh, it would appear on codes as you said it was. and it's exactly what, what, what the who believes and he would, he really believes that in his vision that he would be able to dominate the whole adhesion through power. and i did it, like i said they, us drive that investment. they type that in, in uh, and i've gone to sub and they the, you know, this is to do exactly the same thing and they wouldn't have the same. and now i, i also heard you saying that you believe with me is that the palestinians are now being sacrificed by the west. because the once wants to atone for it's seen of ignoring the addition when i zation of the jews in europe in the past. even though it were, it were not only the jews who were to humanize, but um, the sort of idea suggests that there is um, and i'll send, take sensitivity or,

or intolerance in the west towards different when i zation. is that really the case when we look at the ways the united states or it's alice half what the recent wars, you know, it is very, very, yeah, that's pretty important. i, i do really, really bad. and this is, you know, how this could be a little discussion as far as the visualization of the jews and the time to make up for what's happened to the jews. and you are by that and utilize it wasn't just the jews but, but as an automatic identity, i suppose uh, because of what they chapman's the, you know, the directly to the joys in gen money and then they have an ad. but in the countries, i think it is a sense, so you know, i told him of this sense of guilt that is set of pass and this is the problem in it's passing, the, the, the, the, the, their own and humanity. when they would forget about the now the oppression and the

genocide that this taken place to all those by the victims of it on the crimes. and then this is the, the costs of the problem. they are going to try to go. it's part as much as they can, but the 3 is just a point where they cannot do it anymore and it is much more clear today. and guys, as they start taking a different position than what they did, even though you remember they have a loading of one after another to follow. and by then to go to this uh, uh, and nothing else. she's in an install ability. what, what as a, basically what they did, they enabled him to do what is the they like it or what they are, the ones who need it enabled? nothing. yeah. who to commit the genocide and gaza today. now speaking on this issue off, i sort of atonement guilt. i recently came across a very point in closed by the martin. you can put

a mess as our who said back in 1955 a decade after the end of the world war 2. that was immoral european cannot forgive to hitler is not the crime itself, the crime against man, not the humiliation of men of such it is the crime against the white man. and the fact that he hibler applied to your, of the colonies, procedures, which until down had been reserved, exclusively for the arabs in old jerry, the coolies in india. do you think this division into higher and lower humans still exist? and how western morality assesses various conflicts, so much so, so much so, i mean, the, the worst looks at the number listed on coach sulvas' and the developing countries, basically as less than a human being. and that is obvious today in the way they cover the news and

palestine. i mean, i, you know, i like anybody else, i watch all the manage the news media in that it was. and it is the one side to complete the one sided and as if the other side doesn't love have value when they went on, this lady is killed a medicine them by name and even the one that is and is the only claim that the schools they present it as it is true, one of and i actually and, and, and that's a god i o was say the man is and been between court and court free me. yeah. because it is a really man, is the media in the was in other places they, the west would be caught in that sense of shape. but in going they do it themselves . it's just manage and they want to be able to uh, you know, present one side, but then the other, it is so much so that you know, 27 or 20, if 1000 palestinian did is, is not even a quote to, you know, about 1200 is the unit killed, you know,

it had never happened in history. they were, they u. s. media had accepted to allow another country to not allow it to go inside to cover that. but the events, i mean they are lucky even lower than i medic has to go inside goes to elizabeth and but did the with the is that i the army? so the kid basically spoke pessimist with as i e r. mr. con to i heard you a quote and is really right or before who wrote that every person lives in a place but with the palestinians. the place lives in them. and i think the same, couldn't decide about the jews too, because if we look at the jewish history of eric, painful, generous histories and the 9 tenths or the 20th century, many of the horrible things that were down to, to the jews now being done by these really stay to the palestinians. i wonder if

you have any ideas of how this vicious circle of collective violence of collective punishment could this talk. you know, i was a look at it. it's is, it's almost like, i don't want to compare it to animals because always being the human to do that. but, but it is, it becomes a lot of survival. and that's a said, i mean i'm best buy to if i do believe the jews were oppressed in the west. and i do believe that they were targeted as a, as a group and, and then political science and came and basically it didn't present to the vision. i would say over the oppression whereby they believe that the only way they could sort of by, by positively or pressing on other people by doing it exactly to the other people. what had done to, to that it was. and that is the, the, the, the problem with political science in which it creates a divide. there is one, a very important distinction, is that the use in your, or for defense less. i mean,

they didn't have the means to defend themselves, but the is rarely state is not defenseless and supported by very might the military's of, of the world. so they can find the solutions, diplomatic, military, and whatever economic solutions if they want to. they have the means of doing that . it will it bit. and that's the issue of a political solution being acknowledged in the presence of the palestinians. and you'll have to remember when is the is referred to, palestinians always refer to them. they add up as if somebody came from somewhere else and came to a palace low. and they don't even acknowledge their word, palestinians, for palestinians who remained even in palestine up to 1940 a baby. so call them, you know, ups as of this and out of my know that it's not a lot of minority is their national minority. and they are the palestinians. and this is, this is again, the crux of the they put the political scientists and they have to deny the

existence of the palace thing is to be able to justify the process on the land as to, as also you with them on. but i am sure they have a more daughter saying that it lands with that people for people with that land. i mean, i, i tell i didn't even believe that they would be able to argue that and even the lord would accept it as, as, as any ality. when palestine was the, the, the theatre of all many innovators and 16 at least 16 infers, or the empires occupied palestine to throw out history all the way through the, to say it's the all the way through word $11.00 word or 2 and, and then they would come and say it was the last with that people and it is legally and that attend and that was the side that you guys accepted even in the was and it wouldn't go through a lot of people's existence. then you are able to justify your question, i guess those who do not even exist pop. so that's why i don't really agree with your point about that, but i'm trying to atone for the,

for the has some so some moral sin because clearly they're not seeing it as a sin. and if you look at the, the policy is historically it is a tried and tested practice, but mr. country have to leave it there for a time constraint. but it's been great talking to you. thank you very much for that . likewise, thank you. i really appreciate you have been in talk in about this important subject. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again. one of all the parts

the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, it's a challenge for freedom, a supporters of judy now assigned to mingling outside that you pays high court as his legal team makes a final effort to stop the whistle blow from being expedited to the united states. but what he faith is a 175 years in prison for exposing america's dirty secrets. pressing the forces, taking another front line towel and on the battlefield following this week's capture all of the. now it's pushing ukraine even further back away in the heart of