of cold hearings on nature warmed israel, genocide, activities, and guys in jerusalem would have just those 2 events signify in terms of the panorama that you explained in your new book. oh, those 2 events were the very significant. i guess the 1st would be at the collapse of neutrality in europe. and again, during the cold war we had a neutral belts going through the continent to give some strategic distance between the 2 rivals. and again, this also not to as a favor to moscow, this was seen as being in the national interest. now we see states abandoning this largely without debate and without clear reasoning, why successful lives should impulsive neutrality is replaced with extending a direct front line. and of course, it's a the problems and also it has been come quite a stain on the west as well. and because i think it around the world, there's a lot of decline in the legitimacy, which is

a golf course of the future of the world order the legitimacy effectively to rule them, to make up rules and implement those rules. and the, the legitimacy of the west is declining us. you know, everyone more or less recognizes the genocide, but there's still direct support for it. so it's quite a, quite a dramatic uh, yeah, time living except, but as the world is clearly opposed to washington, u. u. k. policy, as regards palestine, many of those is a poor developed indian rights do not appear to understand ukraine the way you detail it in. in the new book. i mean, russia just being victoria, as soon as you have. and today's lensky using today is a day of resistance against crime. yeah. or whatever. it's called the, according to ukraine. why do you think they, they don't see the european union countries of some elements, even in the global south, and understand that ukraine is you detail. again,

in the game is of the case really of a major back genocide in eastern ukraine, that voucher was going to defend the people in, in east and ukraine. and as the fact that the ukraine is kind of an echo of yugoslavia which you most the nato countries in western europe that towards at school. how do you just love you? it was a great to freedom fight by nato countries. and not as you explain in the book, completely legal, are there any facets of international law as was then as well to some extent, i argue it's also declined of diplomacy. and this has been one of the cases argument polarity you, you, if, if you don't think you have any opponent, students never need recess to negotiate. also, the whole idea of harmonizing and finding mutual interest is abundant and us, which email diploma to take some larger latest pedagogy kind of going at function

in which to the rest as a teacher and others to students. so, and the student is intimate compromised with it's to socialize, and if it doesn't allow itself to socialize the death to be contained or confronted . so there is to add, i guess it's a failure to address the key issues. and i think there's a key problem. i, i, i hear you know, different western liter speak and i never hear any of them being able to articulate the russian position. and even if the were able to articulate it and they would be immediate the talk, because once you explain the appointment, you can refuse to have legitimizing this. and this is the main problem because there's so many objective realities in terms of how this work began the development over the past 30 years. what sparked the war and also how the war has been going? i mean, people would be thinking for 2 years that ukraine was winning because that's what they're being told. so there's a that, that's a, that's a failure. it has been on many levels and it tends to go back to the issue of

a failure of unit polarity. but just in the past few days, the government, they're in no way where you are speaking to be from the defense minister of viewing arrow gram, sending surface to am is i was to. so then scale problem is to join us go store signing by latrell military agreements with zelinski, maybe in the next few weeks they've announced their and also of course home of isn't the nobel peace prize they gave to kids. and you will be, as in your book quite a bit. i mean, just to take, you know, as an example, what do they thank as well. i think this uh, overall uh, absence of strategic thinking across nato. for that sake, it said that there hasn't been any plans, so we will discuss how this war began, which means we, we come to discuss how to solve it. and also the assumption is we will need to rejected or compromise this. we don't even have diplomacy. even then negotiation.

somebody come and go to work. so the only possible outcome acceptable outcome is victory. but no one has defined what victory means. are we going to defeat the world's largest nuclear power? uh, exactly. how would this look like? so that's a, that's a, this, yeah, like all the clarity in terms of what the actual goal is. and again, i don't think there's any good solutions to this. i think a, the, the key foundation of this, of this miserable policy. so the same policy, she was happy to pursue this step as the basic assumption that is on provoked. now we're not allowed to contest. there was some approval because it said it was provoked, then we were legitimizing it but, but i think it was unprovoked. it suggests that russia simply out shopping for new territory step is most opportunistic. and if that's the case, of course, you have to send width is to increase the costs compared to the benefits of taking territory. however, if you recognize this was approval, that to russia says this is alexis central threats,

which is an objective reality confirmed again 30 years from washington as well. well then, sending all of this weapons will merely escalate because russia can never step down or back off is the only option to for it and for victory, the only alternative is for it to completely withdrawing. see effectively, nate, the martian long. you can also email me as well. it's a, it, i think it's this goes back to this for the assumption that is most unprovoked. and i think this is where a lot of the mistakes i wore. and not only the historic hatred to all the russia that is being talked about quite a lot at least by those who supported pigeons, actions the god and method for i mean, i remember rudyard kipling the clap trap or orient list, right? you know, did when i was going to school, you explain with this uh, these words we heard from the foreign minister, joseph burrell, talking about the rest of the world as a jungle and them as a god and how they keep reappearing. these kinds of the phrases, victorian unions,

husband, robot kagan, talking about the importance of leading the world and this again, this dichotomy between god and, and jungle. i didn't know whether i'm in the jungle here in the u. a because i'm not in one of the metric polls west and you are well, this actually has a, a c, this has suggested a long history now. and we, we say that the modern world order is based on this fall, the in which we're, every state was recognized to be sovereign. however, it soon became more evidence that we did not have sovereignty quality. and those states have the same sovereignty. so sovereignty was something not just the right, but also responsibility and the only one who were capable of upholding this responsibility. work then your pm's, the christians, and the rest of the world. we're not civilized one of the or p and so enough christians. and so for this reason that they did not have the same sovereignty, this is again, just an objective reality. that is the system that was formed. and so under this

system, there was the directory which would merge was the business, the garden pushes to civilized europe. and then we have the rest of the world, which is the jungle. and the basic assumption will be, once we're, when we're in the garden, we have to respect the rule of law. but when we're in the jungle, we really have to go out and, and, and, and there is no longer apply. because this is the rule of the jungle, so we don't have to follow the reset and more once routes in the wider world. now you can say that after the cold war will, after the 2nd world war, we began to drop a lot of this rhetoric about the civilized versus the varian. but we now, through ideology, reframed it as a liberal democracies versus authoritarian states. and this is why this rhetoric has to be revived, the garden and the jungle. and again, it's not that some far proofread even up to the advisor to main advisor to tony blair when he came up with this liberal internationalism called for

a liberal empire. various effectively is the same metaphor we are. we are the garden, we have to go out there. so the jungle and the you see the same rhetoric also from the leadership from a, as a, uh but, and who made this argument again just by kipling. if we are the gardens, we have built a system based on peace and law, but the outside of our walls, there's a jungle. and if we don't go into the jungle and tame them, then the jungle will grow and go into the garden. so there is this a, yeah, it's a, it's a rhetoric of a superior warranty in order to justify this already inequality as a sovereignty for us. but not for you. this is the basic idea. how do you have your back genocide around the world and veto un security council resolution say you want to on gods or if you. but if you actually believe that it was at the nature nation propaganda media as we loading the valley in russia, it was matched with nazis,

of course, and backed rushes at re taking of crimea. how? uh, how do you think uh, the new valid, the case should be covered by this media and who, who benefitted from is killing or his death just before the munich security conference given that they that tele trying to build him up as some how it can be compared to nelson mandela, or of old people, you know, on the bbc, cnn and, and the prob, again, to meet here of that nature, nations a 0. this has become a trend, i guess, over the past 2 years. of course this isn't in the book as this happens, have more recently bought and bought about associated with one glassdoor from venezuela order or the case in bel literacy. you know, there's a tendency to try to elect their leaders for other governments much like photos on a new crime. by the way,

within the holidays. i think it was missing there. i guess from the media has to do is because of course it's uh if uh, if someone from political position dyson in prison uh that the people have a, you know, legitimate reasons to clear. like why was it mistreated for something wrong? why, why should have transparency, but that being said, we can't pretend to say if the rest hasn't been using this for everything is worse . and also uh, as you said, whitewashed him. i mean, i keep hearing references from people like michael before mcfall, that he was the main opposition leader in russia and i hear this over and over again. but this is just objective. reality is not correct and made my position is the commonest part of the have many other political parties. he wasn't, he wasn't there and a position later in this sense. and i don't think here uh, you know, it was in a chance of him taking power and rushed out. so this is this a very falls narrative. and also, i guess the way he's not portrayed as being this yes, a freedom fighter. again,

this is the what, what happens all of this rhetoric of a, you know, considering most lives in the concerts that's being cockroaches. i remember a lot from the west to me that tried attempted to, to clear his name saying, well this was when he was younger and the less experienced. but when they get back to interview, he me confirmed my opinions. i'm not change. so that's been a strong effort to whitewash it, but it doesn't. so again, it's, it seems very naive or a deceptive to suggest this is not a politically motivated professor glenn. these and i'll stop you that more from the old or the ukraine. more on the ration will do a draft of his break. the

watching is why it was a lie in control. if i give borrowed money in the store and this this she said, and i showed on the phone, i'm not going to stay less. so can i scan when i am, what i could touch at your desktop session? that's just shiny or just in when you buy a new school and you sit on the the, the, the, the line, scott bennett, i'm former united states army psychological warfare officer. really served in the state department counterterrorism office under investor del daily the

. so i wanted to come here to russia in the dawn bass area and to gather the facts, to take back to the american people. the hold on bass of the front lines. this is where the bombs and the bullets are raging . this is where people are dying. this is where the buildings are. exploding the all. i wanted to see 1st hand, the scar or some for the

the welcome back to going on the garden. i'm still here with professor glen decent editor at russia in global affairs and alter the claim warranty or asian world order present, gave these and we were just talking about one about the developed in the sub, to comparisons being made in propaganda me during the nature of nations developing of course, before he started marching with the nazis in russia, was funded by the national endowment for democracy. and you explain in this book up briefly, it in, pausing the way the us intelligence services act in terms of these n g is to attempt to the destruction of democracy around the world. can just go into that a little because the national endowment for democracy is a routine the considered a great to pro democracy organizations, organization in the nato countries, as you know, as well. this is one of the,

the contradictions of the liberal, a 100, my. so i'm their liberal hedge and under the assumption is that the liberal ideals can only elevate in the international system if it occurs under the leadership of hedge money and do not have states. and uh, so towards this end to ensure that you money. and this being to logics of the corruption of civil society because we argue that a true free and open the democracy which, which has to be to belong to the garden. then you have to have a strong civil society supported by and jose, however, that is not enough to have to be international in jewels. and then it turns out that a lot of this in san jose are actually not actually non governmental. they are completely financed by government and often staffed by if people or former part of the intelligence community. now when it comes to was national to them on the side of the national endowment for democracy, it was actually established in 1980,

so $83.00 and entered the opening speech introduction. the speech was given by ronald reagan and he was very clear that this was a way of doing things in the open instead of hiding cause of the items and drug costs. it was quite embarrassing. and again, this is not really big secret to have the, the co founder of the national government for democracy, confirming that the and what to see i used to do is what to do. now we have had many whistle blowers from this guy who said that this is effectively a c i operation. and it is a great way of a interfering in other societies. because once you put all your money or put your money for it defense into n g o, which is allegedly about democracy, you now have source credibility. it's a, it's an institution of working for good values. whoever posted it, you know, they're undermining democracy. so it has all the propaganda value you need. also, it's selected by definition. they only look at to human rights and democracy issues

in other serious states. so suddenly, oh, great power politics is framed through the prism of human rights. so good, good values versus bad values, the democratic twist versus the authority or interest. and so this becomes an instrument of propaganda because there's no principles involved. a look at the current instance. uh, you know, nobody can, when it need to report on some solid liter dying and that you're pregnant pressing or on the julie massage. but the people like to have all of these has to be, you know, want to watch them become the new montela. so it's, it shows that this is a way of corrupting civil society rather than actually building it's and you use a lot of wiki leaks is work in the book in terms of footnotes. because of course do it in his own tribunal. so many secrets, regardless of the case in london, and we've had the you in special rubber to talking about is tortured by british authorities. is it to be expected that washington um, and proxy brussels in london?

and so we will collaborate to try and assassinate to the kind of people that appear in foot notes of the kinds of books you're right. is that to be expected that the they will organize assassinations as the julian. so i'm just defense, team maintain. well, it depends, it depends. so it would be, but of course the, the, the side has been revealed to have to have plans to kill a song. so this is again an objective reality. but the, the, the problem is everything becomes a politicized. if you, if you, if you recognize that to that are like our side is committing this kind of crimes, it's, you can be accused of assisting the other ser, uh, because it will take our related topic. i you, if, if you create a slice for several sanctions against russia, that they don't work,

which is reality. and then you reduce trust in sanctions. and if you reduce trust this auctions, that means you're assisting the russians. so we always solve the narratives which have to trump and the facts, and i think this is, it goes back to the same problem. well, i, the only thing is that uh, even kind of us allies like india, which will be, it does masses of trade since uprooting decided to defend the people of based. and ukraine is getting annoyed by the national them democracy themselves. you quote life to link to environments just to remind the injection good of explaining why the nato hates democracy. presumably with the use of these, um, maybe some goldman g o is maybe we should go on. jo's yeah that, and that's some place that's not the log into the acronym, but yeah, that, but this is this a good example because often this is portrayed as being a struggle simply between the us, its allies on one side. and it's sandra serious on the others. but as you see, and this is one of the future of the new world order, emerging is

a multiple our system. and so you have countries such as it was the country so friendly to us as well. so just turkey or india, as i mentioned, who would like to have to act as an independent paula power, which means they're not going to follow in the footsteps of united states. so they, they also become more and more cautious. now this instruments some hedge of money and which are not just the, you know, i nomic, military and political, but is also the manipulation of civil society. and this is what the indians for commenting upon or the foreign minister when, when the effect of the coldest manipulations and it's a nothingness, civilizing mission, in terms of bringing to human rights and democracy. it is a way of manipulating policies and, and, and essentially aligning and their policies with and united states. and along with all these geopolitical geography, military changes you see signs of us collapsing,

nato nation and culture. in this book. i mean, we've talked on this program about russian rights is composed as office, have been banned in the wake of the move to protect people in ukraine by russia. and you quote, a lesson from ancient room. was it civilizations much like stars shining the strongest? is the before they die, presumably is what you mean. what sort of dangers? i mean that they, i mean this is $500.00 is when talking about so what sort of dangers and have short term with these changes going to be? i think going to washington. the new proxy is going to realize it's a case of nuclear weapons as they're only the only option given they are failing to sanction russia failing to prevent china from becoming a pre eminent economic supervisor. and so to yeah, well just 1st in terms of the yeah, solicitations shining the brightest of,

i mean russian right is off is being banned by nato countries. it goes not by russia, isn't it? yeah. what well does it say, oh, because such a monster loose a party in ones, there's no more adverse there's. there's no more a product is being made and you see the excess is beginning to tear, tear away about to and but, but to the conflict with, in, in, in ukraine. obviously, i think it's also a good indication of how they failed to, to, to, to the appropriate priorities. because the amount of, by the possibilities to how to maximize security. what's there all along? and in steps there was picked the, the, the routes to maximize power instead. and i think that's been, uh, a, we'll fully learn since you will of, uh how, what, what the strengths of rushes are and what's the weakness of himself sort. and their reaction to populism, as they call it, trump,

or band and others of these liberal leads is to obviously try and tie them to the enemy i. it's being pressure for a while. presume they will be tied to china as soon as it hits their version of, of, i mean, we mentioned graham, she a lot in this book clearly uses words. i could germany and civil society a lot and interregnum that we're in you that you, you posit. so is that the way of, uh, talking about how terrible the interregnum is this populist uh, a situation where someone like trump is gaining so much popularity and other populace figures who will no doubt gaming popularity as the economies decline in western europe to yeah, and the dragon ameristar to us the cost. well this is the source of all our conflicts. now it's uh, the world orders shifting. so the americans are trying to pull it back to unit polarity. while most of the non native world is trying to pull it towards multiple are to and it's in this, this friction that all the rules are collapsing,

which is why we're having the crisis we do. about popular some is a, it's become a key problem within the west because not everyone is marching in the same type anymore. and this is also something i drew carlos to in the 19th century because after a period of globalization is quite common. that you have some winters of globalization and some who have lost lost out, for example, in europe, the farmers or in the us, the industrial and in, inside of the industry workers. and, and in this instance, it creates a huge divide between the leads and the people. and it's a, this is why after globalization in the 19th century and now you have the emergence of the sort of popular store essentially saying that this policy, as the lights are pushing and which are global list, but destination are no longer in the interest of the people and the populism can be a mechanism for, for, for, for, for addressing the shift from the lease, which doesn't necessarily represent the people to the extent to the set the,

except there's one difference. but to from that, over this 500 years since west bailey and i should say, some british historians consider that the, both them nationalism nation states earlier. a book just to, you know, cause i'm british. the differences isn't that, and you mentioned sucka book and facebook. is it the tools they now have just sense suppressed information to surveil us so much greater than ever before? could they not as, as like a book as i'm tried to get the united states to do, to increase private, public use of technology to further the names of the c. i pick one agency or can they not do that and dumb down in a truly orwellian oldest huxley style way and destroy the minds of everyone in wisdom your this is a real problem. and again, this is why the problem state we face today or not,

that the dissimilar from the problems after the 1st world war. because you now have the political class beginning to do more hand in hand with the main industries which are now the just the digital tech jobs. how sucking america, of course, is a very interesting example. because you know, when, when you had all this issues on the roster gate, about this information and, and the propaganda then of course the, you know, he came to the governments unless we were not to your enemies. you, you don't have to regulate us. we will work with you because uh, this information is a problem coming from russian, china and the rod, you know, nowhere else. so he tends to identify the, the, these key issues misinformation, as link sold it to the other serve united states. so you see corporate interest and governments at beginning to merge more and more. and once you have this, which effectively is by definition of fascist political economy. and you have very

little power left for the people in this relationship because once it gets corporations and government goes hand in hand, other people have very little to just stand up for. so i would say there's a, there's a good reason why why people are so called for and it was seemingly that comes to their way. professor glen decent. thank you. my pleasure. and that's it for the show of continued condolences to those surviving the killing in old age of back was a new book, the ukraine war and the ration. well, the order is out now we'll be back with a brand new episode on sat there until then. keep in touch with our social media, if it's not sensitive in your country and i do i channel going, undergoing tv on romo dot com to watch new and old episodes of going undergrads. is that the,

[000:00:00;00] the they nodded states it as a bar because vassal states or the coalition against peace from ukraine to cause.

it is defined in ministration. it is against most of the world that historical wind is blowing against the west. the for the 1st time presidents, 11 p names and number of ukrainian soldiers of killed in the complex. but his big raises questions about whether it actually corresponds with the reality on the ground thing rather than govern green. a dialing report, hit 1000, say it solves in a tiny and fire tools project in apricots. the problem is so much, but it's been that the government with west to infections shopping around on the flight to medicine. it's going to set up to pause a life saving gap by beginning caution production of the specialist to come to