or has been completely destroyed the month of a personal size and the roof has already been submitted by the ideas. and we wait for this week to see what else will come on to me as government. well, those are just a few of the stories that we all keeping an eye on this one day from today on the week. all still young hurry can count on pension developments ahead. caesar the the sooner time. see welcome back to going under granville. got to go around the world for the you a today, nathan nathan, subject to to tell the terry and propaganda and then media back genocide in gaza.

and today sweden implicated at the persecution of wick unique's. is julian assigned, as well as being supplier of killing machines, to israel. looks that to join nato. this is the usa is defeated of its proxy war with russia through ukraine, and the dollar lose its place has the currency of choice in global transactions, charging how ukraine became, the decisive beginning of the end of us empires. professor glen decent, he's editor of the rusher and global of has generally his new book, the ukraine war in the region. well, the illuminates the least sol lies and deceit of successive us. and us proxy western european nations, he joins we know from all his level in no way to thank you so much for visitation for coming on. so i said 2 events today. uh which uh, envelope, our emblematic of teams, really in your must read new book. i mean, it's quite an amazing summary of 500 years of a new liberal history hungry is voted on sweden. joining nato will quote hearings when they do armed israel, genocide, activities, and guys in jerusalem would have just those 2 events signify in terms of the

panorama that you explain in your new book. so those 2 events with the while are very significant. i guess the 1st would be the collapse of the trial a t in europe. and again, during the cold war we had a neutral belts going through the continent to give some strategic distance between the 2 rivals. and again, this was not to as a favor to moscow, this was seen as being in the national interest. now we see states abandoning this largely without debate and without clear reasoning, why successful lives should impulsive neutrality is replaced with extending a direct, frontline. and of course, it's a, the problems and also it has been come quite a stain on the west as well. and because i think you around the world, there's a lot of decline in the legitimacy, which is of course, the key feature of the world order the legitimacy effectively to rule him,

to make up rules and implement those rules. and the, the legitimacy of the west is declining us. you know, everyone more or less recognizes the genocide, but there's still direct support for it. so it's quite a, quite a dramatic. yeah. yeah. time leaving except, but as the world is clearly opposed to washington, u. u. k. policy as regards palestine, many of those as opposed to well as in the in rights do not appear to understand ukraine the way you detailed it in. in the new book, i mean, russia just being victorious. and as of jessica and today's lensky, using today's the day of resistance against crime. yeah. or whatever, it's called the, according to ukraine. why do you think they, they don't see it? the european union countries, some elements even in the global south and understand that ukraine is your detail. again, in the game, is of the case really of

a major back genocide in eastern ukraine that russia was going to defend the people in, in east and ukraine. and as the fact that the ukraine is kind of an echo of yugoslavia which you most the nato countries west and you are a bit towards that school, how to just love you. it was a great to freedom fight by nato countries and not as you explain in the book completely legal. are there any facets of international law as was then as well to some extent, i argue it's also a decline of diplomacy. and this has been one of the curse, this argument polarity you, you, if, if you don't think you have any opponent, students never need research to negotiate. also, the whole idea of harmonizing and finding mutual interest is abandoned us, which email diploma to take some largely this pedagogy going it function in which to the rest as a teacher and others to students. so, and the student is in jamaica compromised with it's to socialize,

and if it doesn't allow itself to socialize the death to be contained or confronted . so there's to add, i guess it's a failure to address the key issues. and i think that's the key problem. i, i, i hear you know, different western liter speak and i never hear any of them being able to articulate the russian position. and even if the were able to articulate it and they would be immediate the talk, because once you explain the appointment, you can refuse to legitimizing this. and this is the main problem because there's so many objective realities in terms of how this work began. the development over the past 30 years, what sparked the war and also how the war has been going? i mean, if people would be thinking for 2 years that ukraine was winning because that's what they're being told. so there's a that, that's a, that's a failure. it has been on many levels and it tends to go back to the issue of a failure of unit polarity. but just in the past few days,

the government there in no way where you are speaking to be from the defense minister of bo. no gram sending surface to am is i was to. so then scale pregnant is to join us go store signing by latrell military agreements with zelinski, maybe in the next few weeks they've announced their and also the course home of isn't the nobel peace prize they gave to kids. and you will be, as in your book quite a bit, i mean, just to take no way as an example. what do they thank as well? i think this uh, overall, uh, an absence of strategic thinking across nato. for the sake, it's a and there hasn't been any plans, so we will discuss how this war began, which means we, we, country will discuss how to solve it. and also, the assumption is we will need to rejected or compromise this. we don't even have diplomacy. even then negotiation. somebody coming into work. so the only possible outcome, acceptable outcome is victory. but no one has defined what victory means. are we

going to defeat the world's largest nuclear power? uh, exactly. how would this look like? so there's that this, this is the lack of clarity in terms of what the actual goal is. and again, i don't think there's any good solutions to this. i think a, the, the key foundation of this, of this miserable policy. so the federal policy should was happy to pursue this step as the basic assumption that is on provoked. now we're not allowed to contest that are some approval because it said it was promot, then we were legitimizing it. but by saying it was unprovoked, it suggests that russia simply out shopping for new territories that this will suffer to mystic. and if that's the case, of course, you have to send weapons to increase the costs compared to the benefits. so i'm thinking territory. however, if you recognize this was approval that to rush to cease, this is alexis central threats, which is an objective reality confirmed again 30 years from washington as well.

well then, sending all of this weapons will merely escalate because russia can never step down or back off is the only option to for it. and for victory, that a little tentative is for it to completely withdrawing. see effectively, nate, the martian long ukraine in on the crimea as well. it's a, it's, i think it's, it's goes back to this for the assumption that is most unprovoked. and i think this is where a lot of the mistakes i want. and not only the historic hatred to all russia, but it is being talked about quite a lot at least by those who supported pigeons, actions the god and method for i mean, i remember rudyard kipling the clap trap or orient list, right? you know, did when i was going to school, you explain with this uh, these words we heard from the foreign minister, joseph burrell, talking about the rest of the world as a jungle and them as a god and how they keep reappearing. these kinds of the phrases, victorian unions, husband, robert kagan,

talking about the importance of leading the world and this again, this dichotomy between god and, and jungle. i didn't know whether i'm in the jungle here in the u. a because i'm not in one of the metric polls of west and you are well, this actually has a serious, has suggested a long history now. and we can, we say that the modern world order is based on this fall, the in which we're, every state was recognized to be sovereign. however, it soon became more evidence that we did not have sovereignty quality in those states at the same sovereignty. so sovereignty was something not just the right, but also responsibility and the only one who were capable of upholding this responsibility. work then your pm's, the christians, and the rest of the world. we're not civilized one of the your opinions through one of the christians. and so for this reason that they did not have the same sovereignty, this is again, just an objective reality. that is the system that was formed. and so under this

system there was the directory which would merge. was it? yeah, this is the garden which is the civilized to europe and then you have the rest of the world, which is the jungle in. the basic assumption will be once we're, when we're in the garden, we have to respect the rule of law. but when we're in the jungle, we really have to go out and, and, and, and there is no longer apply because this is the rule of the jungle. so we don't have to follow the rules that are more once throughout the wider world. now you can say that after the cold war will, after the 2nd world war, we began to drop a lot of this rhetoric about the civilized versus the barrier. but we now as through audiology, reframed it as a liberal democracies versus authoritarian states. and this is why this rhetoric has to be revived, the garden and the jungle. and again, it's not that some far proofread even up to the advisor to main advisor to tony blair when they came up with this liberal internationalism called for a liberal empire. various effectively is the same metaphor we are. we are the

garden, we have to go out there. so the jungle and the you see the same rhetoric also from the leadership from a, as a, uh but, and who made this argument again just by kipling. if we are the gardens, we have built system based on peace and low. but the outside of our walls, there's a jungle. and if we don't go into the jungle and tame them, then the jungle will grow and grow into the garden. so there is this, um, yeah, quite a, it's a, it's a rhetoric of a superior or to in order to justify the sovereign inequality as a sovereignty for us. but not for you. this is the basic idea handy of your back genocide around the world and veto un security council resolution say you want to on gaza review. but if you actually believe that it was at the nature of nation propaganda media as we loading the valley in russia, it was matched with nazis, of course, and backed rushes at re taking of crimea. how?

uh, how do you think uh, the new valid, the case should be covered by this media and who, who benefitted from is killing or his death just before the munich security conference, given that they, the kelly trying to build him up as some i find him be compared to nelson mandela or of old people, and you know, on the bbc, cnn and, and the propaganda media of that nature, nations a 0. this has become a trend, i guess, over the past 2 years. of course this isn't in the book as this happens, have more recently bought and bought about associated with one glassdoor from venezuela order or the case in bel literacy. you know, there's a tendency to try to elect their leaders for other governments much like what was the new crime by the way, within the holidays. i think it was missing there. i guess from the media has to do

is because of course it's uh if uh, if someone from political position dyson in prison uh that the people have a, you know, legitimate reasons to clear and like, why was it mistreated for something wrong? why, why should have transparency, but that being said, we can't pretend to say if the rest hasn't been using this for everything is worse . and also uh, as you said, whitewashed him. i mean, i keep hearing references from people like michael before mcfall, that he was the main opposition leader in russia. and i hear this over and over again. but this is just, i'm just, the reality is not correct and made my position is the commonest part of the have many other political parties. he wasn't, he wasn't there and a position later in this sense. and i don't think there was any chance of him taking power in russia. so this is this a very falls narrative. and also, i guess the way he's not portrayed as being this yes, a freedom fighter. again, this is the what, what happens all this rhetoric of a, you know,

considering muslims in the concerts that's being cockroaches. i remember a lot from the west to me that tried attempted to, to clear his name saying, well this was when he was younger and the less experienced. but when they get back to interview, he me confirmed my opinions. i'm not changed. so there's been a strong effort to whitewash it, but it doesn't to me. again, it's, it seems very naive or a deceptive to suggest this is not a politically motivated professor glenn decent. i'll stop you that more from the author of ukraine. more on the ration we'll do a draft of his break, the the,

the the welcome back to going undergoing. i'm still here with professor glen decent editor at russia in global affairs and alter the claim warranty, or asian world order, or has a gate base. and we were just talking in part one about the developed in the sub, to comparisons being made in propaganda me during the nato nations. and eventually of course, before he started marching with the nazis in russia,

was funded by the national endowment for democracy. and you explain in this book up briefly, it in passing, the way the us intelligence services act in terms of these n g l is to attempt the destruction of democracy around the world. can just go into that a little because the national endowment for democracy is a routine me considered a great to pro democracy organizations, organization in the nato countries, as you know, as well. this is one of the contradictions of the liberal, a 100 miles. so under a liberal hedge and under the assumption is that the liberal ideals can only elevate in the international system if it occurs under the leadership of hedge millennium, do not have states. and uh, so towards this end to ensure hedge money. and this being to logics that the corruption of the civil society, because we argue that a true free and open the democracy which, which has to be to belong to the garden,

then you have to have a strong civil society is supported by and jose however, that is not enough to have to be international and juice and then it turns out that a lot of this in, in jewels are actually not actually non governmental. they are completely financed by government and often staffed by the people who are a former part of the intelligence community. now when it comes to was national, the mon, the, sorry, the national endowment for democracy was actually established in 1980, so 83 and entered the opening speech introduction. the speech was given by ronald reagan and he was very clear that this was a way of doing things in the open instead of hiding go see i opened golf course. it was quite embarrassing. and again, this is not really big secret. do you have the, the co founder of the national government for democracy confirming that the and what the c i used to do is what to do. now? we have had many whistle blowers from the c i. it will say that this is effectively

a c. i operation and it is a great way of a interfering in other societies because once you put all your money or put your money for interference into a n g o, which is allegedly about democracy, you now have source credibility. it's a, it's an institution working for good knowledge, a swim or pulse of it. you know, they're undermining democracy. so it helps the older propaganda value you need. also, it's selected by definition. they only look to human rights and democracy issues in other sarah states. so suddenly, all great power politics is framed through the prism of human rights. so good, good values versus bad values, the democratic west versus the authority or interest. and so this becomes an instrument of propaganda because there's no principles involved. a look at the current instance. uh, you know, nobody cares what it needs to report on some solid liter dying and that you're

pregnant, pressing or on the julie massage. but the people that can have, all of this has to be, you know, want to watch them become the new montela. so it's, it shows that this is a way of correcting civil society rather than actually building it's and you use a lot of, uh, wiki leaks is work in the book in terms of footnotes, because it goes through it in his own tribunal. so many secrets, regardless of the case in london, and we've had the you in special rubber to talking about his torture by british authorities. is it to be expected that washington um, and proxy brussels in london. and so we will collaborate to try and assassinate to the kind of people that appear in foot notes of the kinds of books you're right, is that to be expected that the they will organize assassinations as the julian. so i'm just defense, team maintain or well, it depends. it depends. so it would be, but of course the, the, the side has been revealed to have to have plans to kill

a song. so this is again an objective reality. but the, the, the problem is everything becomes a politicized. if you, if you, if you recognize that to that are like our side is committing this kind of crimes, it's, you can be accused of assisting the other ser, uh because it will take a related topic. i yeah, if you criticize for several sanctions against russia that they don't work, which is reality, and then you reduce trust in sanctions. and if you reduce trust this auctions, that means you're assisting the russians. so we always of the narratives which have to trump and the thoughts, and i think this is, it goes back to the same problem. well, i, the old thing is that uh, even kind of us allies like india, which will be, it does masses of trade since approved and decided to defend the people of based. and ukraine is getting annoyed by the national it down to democracy

a bit themselves. you quote right to the link from 5 minutes just to remind the instruction good of explaining why the nato hates democracy. presumably with the use of these, um, maybe you should call them and g o is maybe we should go on. jo's yeah that, and that's some place that does not belong into that acronym, but yeah, that, but this is a, this is a good example because often this is portrayed as being a struggle simply between the us. it's allies on one side and it's address areas and others. but as you see, and this is one of the future of the new world order emerging is a multiple her system. and so you have countries such as a and it was the country. so friends with us as well. so just turkey or india as i mentioned, who would like to have to act as an independent paula power, which means they're not going to follow in the footsteps of the united states. so they, they're also, they're becoming more and more cautious now, this instruments i'm heading them on it and which are not just the, you know, i nomics military and political. but it's also the manipulation of civil society.

and this is what the indians for commenting upon or the foreign minister when, when the fact of the call this manipulations and it's a nothingness, civilizing mission, in terms of bringing to human rights and democracy. it is a way of manipulating policies and, and, and essentially aligning and their policies with and united states. and along with all these geopolitical geography, military changes, you see signs of us collapsing, nature, nation and culture. in this book, i mean, we've talked on this program about russian rights is composed as office and being banned in the wake of the move to protect people in ukraine by russia. and you quote, a lesson from ancient room. was it civilizations much like stars shining the strongest is uh before they die, presumably is what you mean. what sort of dangers i mean?

and then, i mean this is 500 years when talking about so what sort of dangers and have short term are these changes going to be? are they going to washington any approx he's going to realize it's a case of nuclear weapons as they're only the only option given they are failing to sanction russia failing to prevent china from becoming a pre eminent economic supervisor. and so is it? well, just 1st in terms of the yeah, solicitations shining the brightest of, i mean russian right is off, is being banned by nato countries. of course, not by russia, isn't it? yeah, well this is also because such a monster loose the party in ones there's no more adverse there's. there's no more a product is being made and you see the excess is beginning to tear, tear away about that. um, but, but to the conflict with in, in, in ukraine obviously i think it's also a good indication of how they failed to, to,

to, to the appropriate priorities. because the amount of 5, the possibilities to how to maximize security. what's there on the long term instead, there was pick the, the, the roots to maximize power instead. and i think that's been, uh, a willful ignorance if you will, of the how, what, what the strengths rushes are, and what's the weakness of himself sort. and their reaction to populism, as they call it, trump or bad. and then others of these liberal leads is to obviously try and tie them to the enemy i. it's being pressure for a while. presume they will be tied to china as soon as it hits their version of, of, i mean, we mentioned graham, she a lot in this book clearly uses words. i could germany and civil society a lot and interregnum that we're in you that you, you posit. so is that their way of, of talking about how terrible the interregnum is this populist of

a situation where someone like trump is gaining so much popularity and other populace figures who will no doubt gaining popularity as the economies decline in western europe to yeah, and the interaction ameristar to us. uh cuz well this is the source of all our conflicts now its uh, the world orders shifting. so the americans are trying to pull it back to unit polarity. while most of the non native world is trying to pull it towards multiple are to and it's in this, this friction that all the rules are collapsing, which is why we're having the crisis we do. about popular some is a, it's become a key problem within the west because not everyone is marching and the same type anymore. and this is also something i drew carlos to in the 19th century because after a period of globalization is quite common. that you have some winters of globalization and some who have lost lost outs, for example, in europe, the farmers or in the us, the industrial and in, inside of the industry workers. and, and in this instance,

it creates a huge divide between the leads and the people. and it's a, this is why after globalization in the 19th century and now you have the emergence of the sort of popular store essentially saying that this policy is that leads are pushing and which i globalist by definition are no longer in the interest of the people and the is the populism can be a mechanism for, for, for, for, for addressing the shift from the lease, which doesn't necessarily represent the people to the extent to the set the, except there's one difference. but to from that, over this 500 years since west, really, and let's just say some british historians consider that the, both them nationalism nation states earlier of the just, you know, cause i'm british. the differences, isn't that, and you mentioned sucka book and facebook. is it the tools they now have just sensor suppressed information to surveil us so much greater than ever before?

could they not as, as i can book, as i'm trying to get the united states to do, to increase private, public use of technology to further the aims of the c i a people and agency. can they not do that and dumb down in a truly orwellian, the oldest huxley style? way in destroying the minds of everyone in wisdom you are. this is a real problem. and again, this is why the problem state we face today or not that the dissimilar from the problem software or the 1st world war. because a, you know, have the political class beginning to do more hand in hand with the main industries which are now the just the digital tech jobs now, sucking america of course, is a very interesting example because, you know, when, when you had all this issues on the roster gate about this information and, and the propaganda then of course the, you know,

he came to the governments unless we were not to your enemies. you, you don't have to regulate us. we will work with you because uh, this information is a problem coming from russian, china and the rod, you know, nowhere else. so he tends to identify the, the, these key issues misinformation, as link sold it to the other side of the united states. so you see corporate interest and the governments at the beginning to merge more and more. and once you have this, which effectively is by definition of fascist political economy. and you have very little power left for the people and this relationship because once it gets corporations and government goes hand in hand, other people have very little to just stand up for. so i would say there's a just a good reason why why people are so called for and it was seemingly that comes to their way. professor glen decent. thank you. my pleasure. and that's it for the show of continued condolences to those of having the killing in all major back

was the new book, the ukraine war and the ration will borders out. now we'll be back with a brand new episode on sat there until then. keep in touch with our social media, if it's not sensitive in your country and i to our channel going on tv on, rumbled up. com to watch new and old episodes of going undergrads. is that the,

the for the 1st time president gloves, names, the number of new premiums soldiers killed in the conflict. but as for the races, questions about whether right corresponds with the reality thing. read over going, going down the pooled heads house that the plane is, have in a tiny and bias till project in africa. that promise. so lots, but it's deliberate. so i'm going it alone with western fractions stopping iran apply to the medicine. it. scientists look to plug life savings out by beginning partial production especially coming to drop the

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