the the custom gary and parliament approves suite his bid to join nato. thus, after nearly 2 years of negotiations almost throughout the year of the sites, the streets ging european all far as is to address the issue of a cheap ukrainian product for the democracy. also an active duty member of the united states air force. and i will no longer be complicit in genocide state side and then the us air force and makes the ultimate sacrifice for the palestinian cause. the thing himself, on fire outside the gates of these rarely embassy in washington, dc and denmark jump states investigation into the plots that destroyed the note. steve guster pipelines on savings,

obviously sabotage. it's added that there are no grounds to dispute. a criminal case must go brands the decision upset because you headlines, the 2 of them must go time, do feel free to head over to all calm form on any of those stories. but as we discussed, i'll be back with another look in the box and all the time. so you're welcome back to going underground rule. got single around the world for the you a today nature nation, subject to tell the terry and propaganda and then media back to genocide in gaza. and today sweden implicate due to the persecution of wiki leaks. is julian assigned, as well as being supplier of kenning, machines to israel, looks at to join nato. this is the usa is defeated of its proxy war with russ to

through ukraine and the dollar loses its place as the currency of choice in global transactions. charging how ukraine became the decisive beginning of the end of us empires. professor glen decent, he's editor of the rusher and global of as gentle as new book, the ukraine war in the region. well, the illuminates the lethal lies and deceit of successive us. and us proxy western european nations, he joins, we know from all his level in no way. thank you so much for reservation for coming on. so i said 2 events today. uh, which uh, envelope, our emblematic of teams, really in your must read new book. i mean, it's quite an amazing summary of 500 years of a new, liberal history. hungry is village and sweet and joining nato will quote hearings on nature warmed israel, genocide, activities, and guys in jerusalem would have just those 2 events signify in terms of the panorama that you explain in your new book. so those 2 events where the while are very significant, i guess the 1st will be the collapse of the trial that the in europe,

the young during the cold war, we had a neutral belts going through the continent to give some strategic distance between the 2 rivals. and again, this was not to as a favor to moscow, this was seen as being in the national interest. now we see states abandoning this largely without debate and without clear reasoning, why successful lives should impulsive neutrality is replaced with extending a direct front line. and of course, uh its uh, the problems and also it has been come quite a stain on the west as well. uh, cuz i think you around the world, the sort of decline in the legitimacy, which is of course, the key feature of the world order the legitimacy effectively to rule them, to make up rules and implement those rules. and the, the legitimacy of the west is declining us. you know, everyone more or less recognizes a genocide, but there's still direct support for it. so it's quite a, quite

a dramatic care. yeah. time leaving except, but as the world is clearly opposed to washington, u. u. k. policy. as regards palestine, many of those are support developed in the in rights do not appear to understand ukraine the way you detail in, in the new book. i mean, russia just being victorious enough of do you have? and today zalinski is saying, today's the day of resistance against crime. yeah. or whatever, it's called the, according to ukraine. why do you think they, they don't see it? the european union countries, some elements, even in the global south, and understand that ukraine is your detail. again, in the game is of the case really of a major back genocide in eastern ukraine, that voucher was going to defend the people in, in east and ukraine. and as the fact that the ukraine is kind of an echo of yugoslavia which you most the nato countries in west and you are

a bit towards in school how to just love you. it was a great to freedom fight by nato countries and not as you explain in the book completely legal. are there any facets of international law as was then, as well to some extent, i argue it's also declined of diplomacy, and this has been one of the cases argument polarity you, you, if, if you don't think you have any opponent, students never any reasons to negotiate also, the whole idea of harmonizing and finding mutual interest is abundant, then does with e mail diploma to take some larger latest pedagogy. how's it going? it function in which the rest as a teacher, the other is the student. so and the student is committed compromise. so if it's to socialize and if it doesn't allow itself to socialize the death to be contained or confronted. so there is to add, i guess, as a failure to address the key issues. and i think there's a key problem i, i,

i hear you know, different the western liter speak and i never hear any of them being able to articulate the russian position. and even if the were able to articulate it and there would be immediate attack, because once you explain the appointment, you can refuse to have legitimizing this. and this is the main problem because there's so many objective realities in terms of how this work began. the development over the past 30 years, what sparked the war and also how the war has been going? i mean, people would be thinking for 2 years that you created was winning because that's what they're being told. so there is a that, that's the failure. it has been on many levels and it tends to go back to the issue of a failure of unit polarity. but just in the past few days, the government there in no way where you were speaking to be from the defense minister abuse. now gram sending surface to and me so i was to so then scale pregnant is to join us go store signing bilateral military agreements with zelinski,

maybe in the next few weeks. they've announced there in also the course home of isn't the nobel peace prize. they gave to kids and you will be as in your book quite a bit. i mean, just to take, you know, as an example, what do they thank as well. i think there's a role of, of some sort of strategic thinking across nato, for the sake. it said that there hasn't been any plans. so we will discuss how this war began, which means we, we come to discuss how to solve it. and also the assumption is we will need to rejected old compromises. we don't even have diplomacy. even then negotiation. somebody come and go to work. so the only possible outcome acceptable outcome is victory. but no one has defined the old victory means we're going to defeat the world's largest nuclear power. uh exactly. how would this look like? so this is, this is the lack of clarity in terms of what the actual goal was and i

again, i don't think there's any good solutions to this. i think a, the, the key foundation of this, of this miserable policy. so the fail policy. she was happy to pursue this stuff is the basic assumption that it's just on provoked. now we're not allowed to contest. there was some approval because if you said it was promot, then you were legitimize senior. but by saying it was unprovoked, it suggests that russia simply out shopping for new territory step is what's offered to mystic. and if that's the case, of course, you have to send weapons to increase the costs compared to the benefits of taking territory. however, if you recognize this was provoked that to russia says this is alexis central threats, which is an objective reality confirmed again 30 years from washington as well. well then, sending all of this weapons will merely escalate because russia can never step down or back off is the only option to for it into, for victory that will turn to, to is for it to completely withdrawing. see, effectively, nate,

the martian on your credit. i saw him on the crimea as well. it's a, it's, i think it's, this goes back to this uh for the assumption that is most unprovoked. and i think this is where a lot of the mistakes are water. and not only the historic hatred of all russia that is being talked about quite a lot at least by those who supported pigeons, actions the god and method for i mean, i remember rudyard kipling, the clap trap door oriental is greater lord is when i was going to school, you explain with this uh, these words we heard from the foreign minister, joseph burrell, talking about the rest of the world as a jungle and them as a god, and how they keep reappearing. these kinds of the phrases. victorian unions, husband, robot kagan, talking about the importance of leading the world and this again, this dichotomy between god and, and jungle. i didn't know whether i'm in the jungle here in the u. a because i'm not in one of the metric polls west and you are well, this actually has

a series of suggest that a lot of history now. and we can, we say that the modern world order is based on this fall, the in which we're, every state was recognized to be sovereign. however, it soon became more evidence that we did not have sovereignty quality. and those states have the same sovereignty. so sovereignty was something not just the right, but also responsibility and the only ones who are capable of upholding this responsibility work. then your pm's, the christians, and the rest of the world. we're not civilized, we're not the are being so enough christians. and so for this reason that they did not have the same sovereignty, this is again, just an objective reality. that is the system that was formed. and so under this system there was uh, the directory which would merge was it? yeah, this is the garden which is the civilized to europe, and then we have the rest of the world, which is the jungle. and the basic assumption will be once we're, when we're in the garden, we have to respect the rule of law. but when we're in the jungle,

we really have to go out and, and, and, and there is no longer apply because this is the rule of the jungle. so we don't have to follow the reset a more once routes in the wider world. now you can say that after the cold war will, after the 2nd world war, we began to drop a lot of this rhetoric about the civilized versus the variance. but we now through ideology, reframed it as a liberal democracies versus authoritarian states. and this is why this rhetoric has to be revived with garden and the jungle. and again, it's not that some far proofread even up to the advisor to main advisor to tony blair when he came up with this liberal internationalism called for liberal empire . it's effectively is the same metaphor we are, we are the garden, we have to go out there. so the jungle and the you see the same rhetoric also from the leadership from the use of the who made this argument again just by kipling. if we are the gardens, we have built a system based on peace and law,

but the outside of our walls, there's a jungle. and if we don't go into the jungle and tame them, then the jungle will grow and go into the garden. so there is this a, yeah, quite a, it's a, it's a rhetoric of a superior or to, in order to justify this already in the qualities of sovereignty for us. but not for you. this is the basic idea handy of you back genocide around the world and veto un security council resolution say one on guys or if you. but if you actually believe that it was at the, they did a nation propaganda media as we loading the valley in russia, it was matched with nazis, of course, and backed rushes at re taking of crimea. how uh, how do you think uh, the new valid, the case should be covered by this media and who, who benefitted from is killing or his death just before the munich security

conference given that they, the tele trying to build him up as some i find him be compared to nelson mandela or of old people, you know, on the bbc, cnn and, and the propaganda media of that nature, nations a 0. this is become a trend i guess, over the past 2 years. of course, this isn't in the book as this happens, have more recently bought and bought about associated with one glassdoor from venezuela on or, or the case in beller. as you know, there's a tendency to try to elect their leaders for other governments much like what was done in ukraine. by the way. i was in the hallway, i think it was missing there. i guess from the media has to do is because of course it's uh if uh, if someone from political opposition dyson in prison uh that the people have a legitimate reasons to clear and like, why was it mistreated for something wrong? why, why should have transparency, but that being said,

we can't pretend to say the rest hasn't been using this for everything is worse. and also uh, as you said, white wash stream. i mean, i keep hearing references from people like michael before mcfall, that he was the main opposition leader in russia. and i hear this over and over again. but this is just, i'm just, the reality is not correct. and mason opposition is the commonest part of the have many other political parties. he wasn't, he wasn't there and a position later in this sense. and i don't think at the, you know, those any chance of him taking power and rushed out. so this is this a very falls narrative and also i guess the way he's an opportunity that's being this. yes, a freedom fighter. again, this is the what happened to all this rhetoric of a, you know, considering muslims in the concerts that's being cockroaches. i remember a lot from the rest of me that tried attempted to declare his name saying, well this was when he was younger and the less experienced. but when they get back

to interview, he me confirmed my opinions. i'm not changed. so that's been awesome. or a strong effort to whitewash it, but it doesn't to me. again it's, it seems very naive or a deceptive to suggest this is not the but politically motivated. progressive glen days and i'll stop you that more from the older the ukraine. more on the ration will do a draft of this break, the united states to this far, but the vassals states or the coalition against fees from ukraine to cause. it is defined in ministration. it is against most of the world that historical wind is blowing against the west. the russian states never as one of the most sense community best. most all sense i'm at the, in the $65.00,

the keys $195.00 and speed. what else calls question about this? even though we will ben in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on russia to day and split the ortiz full tech team and our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say steven twist, which is the

the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor glen decent editor at russia in global affairs and alter the crane warranty or asian world order, or has a gate nice and we were just talking about one about the developed in the to comparisons being made and propaganda me during the nato nations and eventually of course, before he started marching with the nazis in russia,

was funded by the national endowment for democracy. and you explain in this book up briefly, it in passing, the way the us intelligence services act in terms of these n g is to attempt the destruction of democracy around the world. can just go into that a little because the national endowment for democracy is a routine me considered a great to pro democracy organizations, organization in the nato countries, as you know, as well. this is one of the, the contradictions of the liberal, a 100 my. so under liberal hedge him, under the assumption is that the liberal ideals can only elevate in the international system if it occurs under the leadership of hedge money and do not have states. and uh, so towards this end to ensure that you money. and this being to logics, that the corruption of the civil society, because we argue that a true free and open the democracy which,

which has to be to belong to the garden. then you have to have a strong civil society supported by and jose, however, that is not enough to have to be international and generous. and then it turns out that a lot of this in san jose are actually, they're not actually non governmental. they are completely financed by government and often staffed by the people or former part of the intelligence community. now when it comes to is national to them on the side of the national endowment for democracy, it was actually established in 1980, so $83.00 and entered an opening speech introduction. the speech was given by ronald reagan and he was very clear that this was a way of doing things in the open instead of hiding go see, i don't think off costs. it was quite embarrassing. and again, this is not really big secret. do you have the that the co founder of the national government for democracy confirming that the and what the c i used to do is what to do. now, we have had many whistle blowers from the c. i will say that this is effectively

a c. i operation and it's, it's a great way of a interfering in other societies because once you put all your money or put your money for interference into the n g o, which is allegedly about democracy, you now have source credibility. it's a, it's an institution of working for good values, wherever posts of it, you know, they're undermining democracy. so it has all the propaganda value you need. also, it's selected by definition today, it only looks to human rights and democracy issues in adversarial states. so suddenly, oh, great power politics is framed through the prism of human rights. so goods, good values versus bad values, the democratic west versus the authority or interest. and so this becomes an instrument of propaganda because there's no principles involved. uh, a look at the current instance. uh, you know, nobody cares when they need to report on some solid liter dying and that you're

pregnant, pressing or on the julie massage. but the people liked and have all of these has to be, you know, want to watch them become the new montela. so it's, it shows that this is a way of corrupting civil society rather than actually building it's and you use a lot of, uh, wiki leaks is work in the book in terms of footnotes. because of course, do it in his own tribunal. so many secrets, regardless of the case in london, and we've had the un special rubber to talking about his torture by british authorities. is it to be expected that washington um, and proxy brussels in london. and so we will collaborate to try and this acetate to the kind of people that appear in foot notes of the kinds of books you're right. is that to be expected now that the they will organize assassinations as the genius on his defense team maintain as well. it depends, it depends. so it would be about, uh, of course the, the side has been revealed to have to have plans to kill

a sock. so this is again an objective reality. but the, the, the problem is everything becomes a politicized. if you, if you, if you recognize, that's what, that's what we're like, our side is committing this kind of crimes. it's you can be accused of assisting the other ser, uh because it will take our related topic i if, if you create a slice for several sanctions against russia that they don't work, which is reality. and then you reduce trust in functions and if you reduce trust this auctions, that means you're assisting the russians. so we always solve the narratives which have to trump and the thoughts. and i think this is, it goes back to the same problem. well, i, the old thing is that uh, even kind of us allies like india, which will be a, does masters of trade since uprooting decided to defend the people of vice. and ukraine is getting annoyed by the nationally,

the democracy themselves. you quote quite to the link to environments just to remind you instruction good of explaining why the nato hates democracy. presumably with the use of these, um, maybe some goldman g o is maybe we should go in jo's yeah that, and that's some place that does not belong into that acronym. but the, but this is this a good example, because often this is portrayed as being a struggle simply between the us. it's allies on one side, and it's sandra serious on the others. but as you see, and this is one of the future of the new world order, emerging is a multiple our system. and so you have countries such as it was the country so friendly to us as well. so just turkey or india, as i mentioned, who would like to have to act as an independent paula power, which means they're not going to follow in the footsteps of united states. so they, they also become more and more cautious. now this instruments some hedge of money and which are not just the way nomics, military and political, but it's also the manipulation of civil society. and this is what the indians for

commenting upon or the foreign minister when, when, when the effect of the cold is manipulations and it's a nothingness, civilizing mission, in terms of bringing to human rights and democracy. it is a way of manipulating policies and, and, and essentially aligning and their policies with the united states. and along with all these geopolitical geography, military changes you see signs of us collapse in nato nation culture. in this book, i mean, we've talked on this program about russian rights is composed as office, have been banned in the wake of the move to protect people in ukraine by russia. and you quote, a lesson from ancient room. was it civilizations much like stars shine the strongest, is the before they die, presumably is what you mean. what sort of dangers i mean?

and then, i mean this is $500.00 is when talking about it. so what sort of dangers and have short term are these changes going to be? i think going to washington. the new proxy is going to realize it's a case of nuclear weapons as they're only the only option given they are failing to sanction russia. failing to prevent china from becoming a pre eminent economic supervisor. and so to yeah, well just 1st in terms of the yeah, solicitations shining the brightest of, i mean russian right is off is being banned by nato countries. it goes not by russia, isn't it? yeah. what well does it say also because such a monster loose the party in ones, there's no more address there's. there's no more a product is being made and you see the excess is beginning to tear, tear away about that. and but, but the, the, the conflict with, in, in, in ukraine obviously, i think it's also a good indication of how they failed to,

to, to, to the appropriate priorities. because the amount of, but the possibilities to how to maximize security of what's there all along. and instead they always pick the, the, the roots to maximize power instead. and i think that's been, uh, a willful ignorance if you will, of, uh, how, what will the strengths of rushes are and what's the weakness of himself sort. and their reaction to populism, as they call it, trump, or band and others of these liberal leads is to obviously try and tie them to the enemy i. it's being pressure for a while. presume they will be tied to china as soon as it hits their version of, of, i mean, we mentioned graham, she a lot in this book clearly uses words like germany and civil society, a lot and interregnum that we're in that you, you pause it. so is that their way of, uh, talking about how terrible the interregnum is this populist uh,

a situation where someone like trump is gaining so much popularity and other populace figures? who will no doubt it's gaining popularity as the economies decline in western europe to yeah, end of that day and threatening the virus or to us and it goes well. this is the source of all our conflicts. now it's the world orders the shifting. so the americans are trying to pull it back to unit polarity, while most of the non native world is trying to pull it towards multiple are to and it's in this, this friction that all the rules are collapsing, which is why we're having the crisis. we do have a populace and it's a, it's become a key problem with interest because not everyone is marching and the same, talked anymore. and this is also something i drew carlos to in the 19th century because after a period of globalization is quite common. that you have some winters of globalization and some who have lost it, lost out, for example, in europe, the farmers or in the us, the industrial and in, inside of the industry,

workers. and, and in this instance, you create a huge divide between the leads and the people, and it's a, this is why after globalization in the 19th century and now you have the emergence of the certain populace store essentially saying that this policy is the leads are pushing and which i globalist by definition are no longer in the interest of the people and it is a populism can be a mechanism for, for, for, for, for addressing the shift from the lease, which doesn't necessarily represent the people to the extent to the set the, except there's one difference, but to from that, over this 500 years since west bailey and i should say, some british historians consider that the, both them nationalism nation states earlier of the just, you know, cause i'm british the differences, isn't that, and you mentioned sucka book and facebook, is it the tools they now have just sense of suppressed information to surveil us so much greater than ever before? could they not as, as like a bug, as i'm trying to get the united states to do,

to increase private, public use of technology to further the aims of the c i a people and agency, or can they not do that and dumb down in a truly orwellian oldest huxley style way and destroy the minds of everyone in wisdom. your this is a real problem and again, this is why the problem state we face today are not that the dissimilar from the problems after the 1st world war. because you now have the political class beginning to do more hand in hand with the main industries which i now digit the digital tech tribes. now sucker berg of course is a very interesting example because, you know, when, when you had oldest issues on the russia gate about this information and, and the propaganda then of course the, you know,

he came to the governments unless we were not to your enemies. so you don't have to regulate us, we will work with you because this information is a problem coming from russia and china and iran, you know, nowhere else. so he tends to identify the, the, these key issues misinformation, as link sold it to the other serve, united states, you see corporate interest and government beginning to merge more and more. and once you have this, which effectively is by definition of fascist political economy and you have very little power left for the people in this relationship because once it gets corporations and government goes hand in hand, the people have very little to just stand up for. so i would say there's a, there's a good reason why why people are so called for and it was seemingly that comes their way professor glen decent. thank you. my pleasure.