how british diplomacy failed in russia. mr. proud is, is great to talk to you. it's been a long while since i had the pleasure of conversing on air with a british gentleman, let alone a greater diplomat. so thank you very much for that. i'm thank you for inviting me . now. let's start with your experiences here in laska, which you so humorous way of describing your book. now you replaced here in between 20142019, which was a pre day and time period starting with russia stayed fully uh, returning to crimea, which i have to say in the u. k. ones covetous and all the way to the still mysterious boys lending officer gaze cripple. so i think it's fair to say that it was on the time when uh, the previously likely called relationship turned into a seething hatred. what was it like to for you to be in the midst of all of this? well, fuzzy, i wouldn't despite this. so is this evening hatred,

but it's the setting to that uh, the relationship say right? quite significantly, during the time that i was in most skate and nothing else, a struggle around russian and coins a lot. and i was able to, i guess, get a more realistic perspective from the name of us. and it's kind of thought about new k. and that i think the page was, was much more mixed, but actually i will be in person. most russian people just wanted to get on with their lives and wanted to have good relationships with, with other countries, including including with a u. k and, and company. and for my family, they liked, and most it was, you know, confirmation as most of them i have say. and in most regards safety, you know, medical, our past experiences, especially with young children. but it was work wise. yeah. it was a different that different muscles ago, of course, that was at times very well, 10162019. i'm yet in the title of your book, you're describe yourself as an miss fit in moscow. and given the rising animosity,

and during that period i assume that it was pretty uncomfortable for, you know, many british diplomats, i wonder if you were indeed i'm interested in moscow or rather, misleading the british embassy in moscow. well, i think that's what i'm trying to make, but i missed it in that very sense. the most it was make such a good low tide, and that's exactly the point. do you compete, you? i mean, you might be, was, was much more problematic in terms of the money to have the relationship. and as i load with all should define the difficulties in mc, uh, country's eyes difficulties we were talking about about you did off to a bite. and so how to do the stuff that was 2014 and we'll know that and, and you know, i was fairly young and that much space colleagues in having that be fine. why? so i mean the most that i let me ask a personal question because i know that you're a graduate of soul and a university which is a good school, but not the least one. and in the book, you make a point about not having gone to it and not coming from the patent greed family,

which i assume didn't prevent or perhaps even if your curiosity and so the sort of open mindedness about the world. and i wonder if what you describe as miss said has anything to do with social class and exclusive education and the trash 12 years that are associated with it. now i didn't think so. i know they can always be quite comfortable coming to away from class. background them replace them by the challenges i face. that is a child. i was able to kind of get e and bessie education and enjoying the many custody just kind of falling off its policy and program that's they've already been hired for me. i think the big get advantage i hadn't life was going on. i, the season jim needs the sign years of my life, and that was an fantastic experience. united something when i started sold it whenever less living in its own country and have the access and experience info,

totally different cultures languages since i'm the one that was used to that for me it wasn't really kind of a good experience. and i think very much the mistake was about know, agreeing with the u. k. policy on the machine isn't tardy. i still did my job. i still have control of do you have policies the best of my abilities before i die and visitations about the duration, but also you just continue to stay. now maybe it's a russian bias, but i think one of the most common words used here in washington describe british policies. era goes sometimes coupled with ignorance. and i wonder if it's era if this aragon so, you know, sort of this a moral high ground that the brits or the british a policy makers sometimes assume these of our country. whether it is in any way related to that. i'm bringing within those very selective institutions from, you know, from school and all the way to the foreign service will not. i don't think so necessarily. i mean we've had a tall secretaries and time for the last kind of 10 years and see cutting costs. is

it david cameron, obviously the account? uh so the site for the problem is that he did codes and you can, but we finals its different chaise. uh, you know, that as well in the other come 7 phones that day. so i think what do you think uh has necessarily anything to do with it? i think now just to begin transfuse, notice within the principal circles but within the media as well and have say, you know that, but you can try to squeeze in motion as well in physical settings. and then the rushing media, by the case everybody wants to talk about that because i'm not, i'm not sure that's actually the case. and i suggest we started our discussion with many people. remember about that, but the one of the 1st, the visits, that's what i didn't put in made as the new elective had of state and back in april 200-2000 actually you know, 24 years ago was to the u. k. as i think it was specifically meant to convey a good, well, and then ask for a to ma'am, the historical i mentioned between our countries. because for centuries, who have been skimming a and tell us the child there in

a great the razor. and yet uh, one of his 1st intentions was to sort of ma'am those ties. and yet, 24 years later, we still haven't been able to bury the hatchet. why do seeing if there's this because i'm sure on the russian side that have been efforts to do something. yeah. may i think that'd be difference on both sides of the different times. um, just for, by the way side of things like in from like a consistency in leadership on the pay side. spend 15 to, you know, we've had the 75 minutes since doing, doing that pay that you talk about, you know, mean that god will stand. thank you. my number's on site please. if i did during that time. so we haven't, but he had us do it unless the principal level has exist on the russian side. but nevertheless, those, those moments, you know, when present reading came to you, k, u k must send busy. they were still big differences on policy issues on the box. for example, when you walk on something you chasing, you know, uh for example,

unless there was still a little come into the case. i could really kind of recognize the polls, but i see them of us at that time. likewise, and thing to be counting in 2010. you know, he wanted to kind of really have a positive relationship with us. and i think that was a since a, it is on his ball and i'm pretty much lost it through to, you know, being of to 2017. when are you still have to come distracted by his attempt about, you know, you wanna call june cuz i'm being you paying commission present. so, you know, when those efforts that does happen on the case certainly have by must be meaningful . the difficulty was that suddenly when for haven't came full effect in 2014, we would invite vital hasting, i'm going to use my cane, 5 minister in 2016 that we hold. the stuff's going back. you know, the u. k. governmental level and it has to be to ship it until the se, and continues. now, can i ask you about what you decide that, you know, a number of politicians are, were sincere in including camera and then they were sincere about hearing rushes

concerns. what exactly you mean by that biggest for us, it's not enough just to voice or be heard a rational once it's security concerns to be recognized and dealt with. i mean, the action is also important, not just, you know, like we are not going to the west to be, you know, a client of a psych, a therapist, the we, we, we actually won the, the, to be dealt on the common basis and on the equal basis yeah, no, i totally get that, but i'll see, you know, cameron is engaged with some, you know, appointments may be different than the present made of and then present paging. pre dates, you know, to be honest with you kind causes and then others used to talk back about time. uh, you know where, where we are mutually just increasing the kind of city became a, you know, and the wise and that, and that was kind of good discussions on natural, they've been kind of for the box because listening supplementary to buy is which means you guys send you came know team building it and saying it was really

financially. there was disagreements on that. um, unless you know that despite the difference, is that on some policy issues, those over the intent to move forward on, you know, some will post today, some engagement sometimes changes. and, you know, for example, how long was really sincere, actually believing all in wanting to see a really successful and safe um, you know, new beginnings. and so the $10.14 and all that i went into that before, that kind of recurring costs as we saw, isn't coming, visited the pacific region. and so let's see. so maybe so genuine efforts, nicole's you call the book and everything that's impossible. and obviously, i think we, on everything with the us, for example, a lot of it kind of, you can partners, but there was a real desire to kind of collaborate the in areas where it made sense or seduce. so why that's us. now, since we mentioned kudos 1st visit to the u. k, let me ask you about the last at least until now. and it was in 2013 within the framework of g age in which you play the major organizing role. when do you

remember from that they're brand new? i mean, i remember that can make music was really good between cameron and page and it was an i c, i'm button on the off to, you know, cameras visit to adult teeth sort by seeing other things. and no longer off that i see that amazing and know the island of david, come on with some petersburg for the g 20 summit. and there was some real areas of power. also from the cold place that alignment on policy on j g twenty's, these particular line tax transparency and things of that. so yeah, there's some really good areas of collaboration that on j g g trying to kind of policy called say it is a, you know, the clinton was very welcome. uh, in the that time i live, she comes to my place and bustle, myself vocations on the side, tables a different time. but obviously you get an understanding that was some pretty bad music. gene preaching in a bama looks going to just bring them all the headlines at the time because of that, obviously you'll get to ask you about that because this is something that stands

out the most for me and not so much in substantive terms. but then emotional terms, because we only remember that footage of uh, obama, seeing in a very demonstrative lee bore it. and some would say eric and fashion on the part in the cross and nonchalant pretend. and maybe it's just direction bias, but i think there is a strong perception in russia, the west sort of maintains its moral grandiosity at rushes expands that obama sort of had to meet with the put in by duty. but he wasn't your interest signaling of his morally above it. how common do you think that is for the west in general, all 5, using russia as, as a scapegoat for its own shadow. i think it is certainly to it in the west to um, you know, and we, we take uh oh, many policy makers like to buy, you know, once you've deal and policy that you know,

but we don't engage with auction because we don't some of the bushes actions the initial back smith taking the call to is to be kind but on, on other issues as well. nation since we have on it and so on. central with that. and that's certainly something lynn's back on the body countries. other thing that that's, that's a bit of a challenge and, and, but i think that she got back some i'm gonna think the same thing to be said about some of the questions media portrays, you know, the west that's like most read close by the media ways it is by difficult to have a catalogue mid to that kind of line. you can use a much as you know, especially controlled media environment by much pushes dawson, pensacola, and also in the show. it was our work for a state supported television. and i'm giving your 0 the ability to say whatever you want to say, this is right, you don't pay for it to you for that. but now i think, i think the point i'm making is it's very difficult time to cancel. i commit to the meeting and trist line about russia and that, and that hadn't changed from this become was say, the pasta, hey, the,

i've seen since aren't being involved in working with us. and that's by much to be . it's like, you know, given how much she took from the countries and by the need for free speech. it's amazing how difficult to be asked to expose all tend to be on a policy towards russia. well, mr. proud and before we get engaged or rather entrenched the now own arguments, let's take a short break, but they will do back in a couple of moments. state and the release of the russian states. never as tight as i'm wondering, the most sense community. most all sense and up

the in the 65 to 5 must be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin move. yep. mission, the state on rochester routing and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube. the question, did you say it's even closer to the

welcome back to wells, of course with in child a former graders diplomat and also roles and miss fit and most go how graders diplomacy failed in restaurants. now, mr. proud in the book, you describe yourself as a realist of human teen the core purpose of diplomacy. and indeed, statesmanship is to manage relationship the twin states and to prevent conflicts. are you sure that this is still an authentic? we pursued goal of the u. k. policy because it does seem from moscow not just in your brain, but also in the middle east, for example, that i'm reading benefits from sparking conflicts rather than solving them. well, i wouldn't necessarily say respond culture to, in, in the middle east by the, the eclipse call. the codes vote coordinate is what we're doing to try to try and bring it in to complex. so in the world and the, the, you know, the action stage could, the, must, all of some criticism. take the ink also, you know, where, where we've been quite slow and pushing per se, saw it at an anybody have got to wait. unlike boys in,

in ukraine where they think he was actually civilian college, the sci fi, that's fine. but on getting demonstration instructions because in that country, so like, uh, you know, that actually, um, i think there's a need for going to be, it is, you know, a place to, to buy those kinds of public funding. i'm not going to do it before i say, because i called you. when i asked the question, i do not ask you the sort of a moralist success. i ask you, there's a matter of strategy and tactics. and i do that also with a, an experience of being a reporter on the ground in syria and libya and the, frankly, i mean, it's hard to, or it's hard to process the british role in, in the, in those conflicts and say that it was very transparent and moral, and that's why i'm asking you about this because i think it's uh, it's essentially about positioning of breath, the within the western camp. what role do you think brenton wants to play and

what's the means of fusing? because clearly could not be the alpha player. and that's role is reserved for washington. so what is left there from britain to executive power, to win tenants and funds and also to gain what it wants to gain within the western account? yeah, nothing. we haven't made tonight as the price mentioned to you today about what of all should be because certainly since breaks, you know, when we were determined to break free and take back control of our lives as we break st. and it seems to me that one of the biggest consequences of breaks it is that i don't follow the policy terms. we shouldn't be directed to close alignment with the us. and the, you know, we, us control of policy to, in some respects, maybe the old book says, but to washington. so, so they would weigh it when it made of an identity card. and you see that very much in terms of the kinds which i found dogs and on the train with, well, obviously it is. it's very close on many american policy, west main street, us in the us. and that is starting to imagine the claim, but nevertheless not i think we, we have to make sense of all these in the world,

as in the sense that you are paying coaching that we don't, i sort of by being european. but we are, you know, you opinions of the country and how we can work best with you. it being honest, being bad. you can peace and security. i want to ask you about what's going on with then uh, not necessarily guys and but within the whole middle is today because it's pretty clear that for example, the united states and around do not want to get involved into a direct conflict. but there's sort of perception and i heard it from both the americans and the radians that there's some sort forces that are trying to capitalize on the insecure inches of both sides and are essentially trying to get whatever they can salvage from the american global. as heritage, the americans have withdrawing back to themselves, they're pulling production back to the united states and there's some remnants of the global list economy. some of them concentrated around london that may be beneficial for the u. k. to preserve, do you think you k? it may be involved in something like this,

playing not only against the it's proclaimed elements like rational for example, iran, but also against and suppose at alice like the united states. uh, $8.00. right. and how to take something that's kind of um, applying the started be perfectly honest see that and in this kind of a saying, i think i think the problem with jobs and actually the same for me. the problem is, is it was, you know, we're not taking a position on the call, treat that actually recognize as a need for solution. but somebody size a solution, the voice of the policy name, people are being subject tools of terrible, frankly, attacks and injustices and human rights violations. and the, what, so these right people, this of the truthful contest was to type in october of last year. and you know, we need as if we want to have a whole list of states the, we need to kind of give you the, the choice to reconcile the different positions of true, assigned and, and, and as well. and try and find some of the long term solution in concert with the

international companies. and exactly the same can be said with, with the company to new playing where, where, you know, we, we, the side with the painting was simple. you claims because on to types of find that you way in seems to be taking to all the toning some to the west and bomb is. but actually what we need to be do need is no time on my team. also productively stooped can be kind enough to, to west, to a new train and bustle and so involved in taking sides that they need. so taking sides and contracts, which is actually one of the big items that we face in terms of our credibility is as international come to from us. let me ask specifically about this special relationship between most and between washington, the london. and as we all know, anyone who has ever been in the hair of those relationships and his special relationship has it's a fair share of resentment and sometimes even um, conceal sabotage. how would you describe at this point of time? i'll send typically uh the, the ties between uh, london and washington. what are,

what is there beyond the public facade and the public truck limitations of a terminal union and internal friendship will lead, have a good voice with the us, but it's a relationship. but it's a graduation should be here, so i'll send that to you on dentist. a is last cuz you're not getting what you're ones. you're not, you're not. and you're getting a sort of a short stick, a strong down of a shake of the, but it was good on the site. so they still in the context of helping they come meetings and you know, 10 times big of the economy. and then this really is kind of 10 times making the 3 and so on. so, you know, we are very much the junior partner in the relationship. and i certainly think we may still virginia and palm a deal. his has advice consign and free trade agreement with us off to after it breaks it in. but nevertheless you know that be to have us kind of helping them do voc and attacks against a huge examples and so on. you know, in the middle east. so, i mean, i think get somebody and even overlay shit by the me all of us on the american

times like on the bus and things like come on. we are reading this function, your serious issues. we are discussing actually national treasures and the way you deal with those treasures in a responsible way. and i heard you say ones that you believe that americans abandoned, that they are always transactional. and perhaps it's not bad to be transactional because it's, you know, minding what, what you are trying to achieve. do you think the u. k. policy would benefit from being a little bit more transactional and openly so yeah, no, absolutely. and certainly you the dog policy towards china, for example, where, where we see bizarre, this type of the opposite from a policy as well as russia. we shouldn't pay speed. we just started really engaged with the principal level and for the, for that can be. but with china despite it, can of course significant differences opinion on, on various issues, we nevertheless recognize evaluating casement. so we can have these kind of go to a discussions, could kind of the conflict, is we need to be, let's do that. we need to be able to have relationships that the site,

the good little bad, and recognize the differences exist, but still able to have kind of ground conversations at the level of need. it needs it to live a task. i'm now going to be ukranian of conflict. i think we would both agree the crack. so with is the proposition of later expansion, which russia has seen and still sees as a core strategic threat. and what i think is far more important. it has the weapons, the strategy, and the political result to defend against what it sees as a threat. and you have, as you have observed, the u. k. together with the u. s. have refused to, of knowledge of russia, sensibilities or its ability to, you know, defend whether it's the deems to be a strategic interest. what exactly do they fail to see the, the rest of the concerns which were numerous, we voice on the troops that the russia has assembled, had assembled on the border in 2021. you know, we,

we had the experience some to you guys night with the wood, georgia. there was an impulse by somebody kind of some circumstances. i mean, you know, some of the, the, in the west we should be looking for the future fee cleaning. that is more plus person that is more integrated with the claim to come in and so on. and so for i don't think data expansion person is consistent, but i did take the when and, but she was so kind of basically the opposed a site expansion. that's nothing new news with no advice for whether it was the case. and we continue to push this line. i think it, you know, if they agree here at some point i agree this year or maybe next year where we have a seasonal, i knew kindly where the new mouldings have clarity of by that aspiration and, and you know, uh, being over this, think about it for the cuttings. um, the cutting spending protecting an interest in the i see kind of incentives give yourself um, you know, back in, in march of 2020 to just a month out to the um, the word stubs, it was change signs and those kind of would be waiting to concede on, on

a tight and then shit, know that stuff and that frustration you can see it and you can kind of go mental cycles. but actually, you know, they wanted me to the kinds of skies id id call you and they wanted more and they to kind of diagnose anybody they'd function and they tools and getting involved. and you can see, you can, you can set out the whole thing of protection from, from you claim to that sly, always the sure. since if you can maybe join us one day, we don't ask you going to kind of come to a when, when the fighting with the fighting sauce and then so he showed you and it's like when they to kind of concession on us from the child. even security shows isn't that sort of thing. and that was and taken off the table and ultimately the physical decide. i mean, she has all the constitutional powers to decide on his country neutrality. but what do you keep referring to doing or being responsible for ukraine, sig, i wonder if you are still in this new case position of a sort of more old friend do us additional? do you do that for your own sake? because, i mean, does the u. k, have the resources available?

the strategy to actually support made enlargement do have the times the weapons of the people to fight against russia in order to implement that as a policy goal might be, you know, if i need to guide us also, i'm so you know, the funding you to good guys, but i mean, i think my view is that actually, um, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to it. to go to a site, you can post this come to the ukraine. and if you send that invoice on yourself, i mean it's talking about your credit and the evaluation. so it's pretty evaluation . and i'll also may say, but you're on your specific point to me, to, you know, nasal knowing to the new us new, strong as new a, a, as the twice as large as, as much as all me. so mean that the, even if you all the answers so this allows munitions to support their credit. i mean, you can be sad as you know, some people in america fat, but they, they're not strong. i mean, on 3 can confusing besides with the real strikes here it goes, it's ultimately about the efficiency of applying your research for assessing that

result. full way that can me to do that at this point of time is that nato has never wanted to do a cold training with uh, with washer new claim. but unfortunately, we kind of because the, the idea of may to expansion has remained on the table. we've ended up in this kind of awfully has where, you know, we know we know who wants to, can we gauge with the russian and listen to the issues concerns. but neither, i'll be winning touchy fight if you claim to i seeking to hold on to that position, open a to aspiration. i knew this when he comes to the coal, the point that we need to have a final, but hang on. one more is the piece while you cranes feature status one is that new, like in terms of the season, a task space and to see memory best solutions and so on. sample you find you have to kind of group i have for you. you may a serious, as i have side as you know, and by 630 and then convert it in wanting cds in ukraine. okay. well, mr. proud. uh, it's been great pleasure for me talking to you. sorry for uh, uh,

becoming a little bit spiced, paid through the end, i guess how it goes, get with the brand based historical and the mazda takes through this, but it's been the most deep. but to get the system that we have, we have a soap passing to the pleasure was on my side as well. thank you very much. and thank you to our viewers for watching hope to hear again, honey was a part of the, in the late 18 ninety's, french soldiers led by general pole boot. i arrived in asia with the goal of expanding french control in west africa to towers. we have more than shot the funny,

i mean he's stuck up some issues with all the cars. and dicks showing this to the tent of food i on the east one of the most terrific campaigns of atrocities to have ever taken place in the history of the confident what is somebody i know drove it for them to push image dental and i'm philosophy followed there to do so they put the actual multiple villages with devastated a numerous members of resistance groups with the headed off for us to get the young investigator in search of his own identity and box on the journey to africa. the traces general good eyes, blood drenched roots in an effort to establish how your legacy still echoes throughout the confidence. so my name is penny, and i come from england and i've come ready to find out more about the position of

lake and the history in the region. the is the sort of fluid is being reported. there is a very serious matter. and that is why it is now being investigated very carefully, very intensively and very quickly her job and job life. so hold on for the 1st time on problem show revelation a high ranking job and minutes treat stop was planning to help the plane destroy the pride man for it's a cold, a lot. this massacre house. how palestinian officials, the bronze of the kidding of more than 100 people all says really, troops opened fire on the crowd surrounding an age con, void in central 1800 office. when the visuals are held around the world for us and our.