or cooperative within with one another and build relationships that will stand the test of time. while we spoke with member of the national assembly in total innocent, goodbye. and he shared his views on the development of the multilateral world. when we come here, our and price is to have or like back to the ship. we for university here to have also ask what our ship for our right to the, to our students to come here because now read it is very easy for us to come to raise their forties to do it is uh, a very good uh, very important up to the, for our students, i like the way they lucien. uh welcome people to go from or the wards. and it is very interesting to see us. people speaking to a spanish speaking you chose to speaking english speaking french. we are in one works. it is with the port, i mean the lots are on words and we need to talk each other. we need to get out. it

is not our open, you know, that's if you talk to somebody you can look up to, oh no, it is not our interest i went in today. he took up leave everybody. we cannot build the dc world to read out to what us. yeah, it's a simple 7. all right, that's the update. now, next as well as a part i see again the full welcome to world a part,

a shuttle accounts remarked. some things are easier to know then to explain. the russian british relationship is among them. despite numerous assets to man the historical rivalry, the relationship remains cold and arrogant at best, and poisonous and skimming as far as what keeps the ill will so entrenched. well, to discuss them now and join by in proud a former british diplomat, an officer of a mistake in moscow. how british diplomacy failed in russia, mister proud is, is great to talk to you has been a long while since i had the pleasure of conversing on air with a british gentleman, let alone a greater diplomat. so thank you very much for that. i'm thank you for inviting me . now. let's start with your experiences here in moscow which you so humorously in describing your book. now you replaced here in between 20142019, which was a pre day and time period starting with russia stayed fully returning to crimea,

which i have to say in the u. k. one's causative and all the way to the still mysterious poisoning of sort of gas cripples. so i think it's fair to say that it was uh the time when uh, the previously politely called relationship turned into a seething hatred. what was it like to for you to be in the midst of all of this fuzzy, i wouldn't despise a mess. so is eating k to but is there something to that uh, the relationship say right? quite significantly, during the time that i was in most skate and nothing else, a struggle of and russian coins a lot. and i was able to, i guess, get a more realistic respect to folks will name us than this kind of thought about, mutate. and that i think the page was, was much more mixed. but actually, i will be in person. most russian people just wanted to get on with their lives and well just have good relationships with, with other countries,

including including with the u. k. and then company it and some way of finding the human life in most a was in a corporate basis. most of my have say, and in most from jobs i see, you know, medical, our past experiences, especially with young children. but it was work wise. yeah. it was a different that different muscles ago cause that was at times recall times to between 2019. i'm here in the title of your book, you're describe yourself as an miss fit in moscow and given the rising animosity and during that period i assume that it was pretty uncomfortable for, you know, many british diplomats. i wonder if you were indeed me sit in moscow or rather misleading the british embassy in moscow. well, i think that's what i'm trying to make, but i miss been in the body since the most thing was make such a good low tide. and that's exactly the point you, you're completely right. i mean, you might be, was, was most multiplan. i think it was the need to have

a relationship. and as i load with us it, despite the difficulties mc uh, country's eyes difficulties we were talking about. if i did it off to a bite and so i have to do stuff with the 2014, and we'll know that and, and you know, i was fairly alone that much space colonies in having that be. so i'm always on it in the most of letting me ask a personal question because i know that you're a graduate of soul and a university which is a good school, but not the least one. and in the book, you make a point about not having gone to it and not coming from the patent greed family, which i assume didn't prevent or perhaps even if your curiosity and so the sort of open mindedness about the world. and i wonder if what you describe as miss said has anything to do with social class and exclusive education and then trash, 12 years that i saw are associated with it. no, i didn't think so. i mean, i think um, i would always be quite comfortable coming forward from class background,

them replace them. but it sounds like, if i use that as a child, i was able to kind of getting embassy education and enjoying the many as they just kind of fall off it's policy and program that they've already made a high ups on a i think the big get advantage why hasn't life was going up the season, jim needs the to assign years of my life. and that wasn't fantastic experience. you know, something when i started sold it. when the less living in its own country and have the access and experience of, of types of different cultures, languages to the one that was used to that for me it wasn't really kind of a good experience. and i think very much the mistake was about not agreeing with the u. k. policy on the machine isn't tardy. i still didn't my job. i still have control of do you have policies the best of my abilities before i tried to innovation? so by the direction, but also you just continue to stay. now maybe it's a rushing bias, but i think one of the most common words used here in the russian to describe british policies, era goes sometimes coupled with ignorance. and i wonder if it's era,

if this aragon so, you know, sort of this a moral high ground that the brits or the british a policy makers sometimes assume these are the, our country. whether it is in any way related to that. i'm bringing within those very selective institutions from, you know, from school and all the way to the foreign service. one not, i don't think so necessarily. i mean, we've had a tall secretaries and the last kind of 10 years since the cutting cost is subject to the camera and obviously, you know, the account. uh so i would say probably the problem is that he did go to the agent, but we finals its different chaise. uh, you know that as well in the other come 7 phones x rays that i think what you think uh has necessarily anything to do with it. i think they'll just be doing transfuse notice within the principal circles, but within the media as well and have say, you know, they're pretty and try to squeeze in motion as well in physical settings. and then the rushing me about the case. everybody wants to talk about that because i'm not,

i'm not sure that's actually the case. and i suggest we started our discussion with many people. remember about that, but one of the 1st of this is that's what i didn't put in uh made as the new elective had upstate and back in april 200-2000 actually you know, 24 years ago was to the u. k. as i think it was specifically meant to convey a good, well and an app for it to man. the historical i mentioned between our countries because for centuries, who have been scheming and tests each other in a great the razor. and yet uh, one of his 1st intentions was to sort of ma'am those ties. and yet, the 24 years later. and we still haven't been able to bury the hatchet. why do seeing if there's this because i'm sure on the russian side that have been efforts to do something. yeah, man, i think that'd be that somebody's sides of the different times. they've just followed by the way, so i don't think i have been lacking from the lack of consistency in leadership on the pay side. it's been 152, you know, we've had the 75, mrs. doing,

doing that pay the you talk about, you know, midnight of last time. thank you. my numbers on site tuesday 5 during that time. so we haven't really had best of the lives in colorado that has exist on the russian side. but nevertheless, those, those moments, you know, when present reading came to you, k, u, k, must have busy and they were still big differences on policy issues on the box. for example, when you walk on something you chasing, you know, for example, nevertheless, there was still a little come into the case. i can really kind of recognize the polls, but i see them of us at that time. likewise and thing to be counting in 2010. you know, he wanted to kind of really have a positive relationship with us and i think that was us and said as long as paul, and i'm pretty much lost. and through to, you know, being of 22017, when he started to come, distracted by his attempt about, you know, you wanna call june cuz something you paint commission present. so, you know, when those efforts that does happen on the case certainly have thing must be

meaningful. the difficulty was that suddenly when people haven't came public sector in 2014, we would invite oh, hasting, i'm going to use my cane communist a in 2016. that we hold, he's still on stored in bed. you know, the u. k. governmental level and it has to be to ship it until the se, and continues. now, can i ask you about what you decide that, you know, a number of politicians are, were sincere and including camera and then they were sincere about hearing russia's concerns. what exactly you mean by that? because for us, it's not enough just to voice or be heard a rational once it's security concerns to be recognized and dealt with. i mean, the action is also important, not just, you know, like we are not going to the west to be, you know, a client of a psych, a therapist, the we, we, we actually won the, the, to be dealt on the common basis and on the equal basis yeah, no, i totally get that. but i'll see, you know, cameron's engagement with some,

you know, employment as a mediator. and then as a main of them and present paging pre dates, you know, to be honest with you cutting causes. and then others used to talk bad about time. but you know where, where we had a mutual interest increase in the tennessee. it became a, you know, and the wise and that, and that was kind of good discussions on natural, they've been kind of for the box to kind of witness on entry to buy it. which means you guys send, you came much involved and said it was really financial. that was disagreements on that unless you know that despite the difference is that on some policy issues there was over the intent to move forward on, you know, some more posted age and engagement, sometimes tailors and, you know, for example, how long was really sincere, you actually believe in all in watching see really successful unsafe um you know, new beginnings and so the $10.14 and all that i went into that before that kind of recurring costs as we saw isn't coming this the pacific region insult. see, so maybe so genuine efforts,

nicole's you call the boot and everything. that's impossible. and obviously we, i think we, on everything with the us for example, like kind of, you can partners, but there was a real desire to kind of collaborate in areas where it made sense subsidies. so why that's us. now since we mentioned, put us 1st visit to the u. k. left may ask you about the last at least until now. and it was in 2013 within the framework of g age in which you play the major organizing role. when do you remember from that their brand? oh, i mean, i remember that can make music was really good between cameron and page and it was an i c, i'm button on the off to, you know, cameras visit to um, i just saw cheat sort by city and other things. and no longer off that i see that amazing and know the island. i'll see david come on with some petersburg for the g 20 summit. and there was some real areas of power also from the cold place that alignment on policy, on g and g, 20 issues, particularly in tax transparency and things of that. so yeah,

there's some really good areas of collaboration that on j g d trying to kind of policy called say it is a, you know, the patron was very welcomed in northern ireland. at that time i live, she comes to my place and bustle, myself vocations on the side, tables a different time, but obviously you get, i'll be sending that with some pretty bad music to preach and then the bomb it looks kind of frustrating for them all the headlines at the time because of that, i would say the best. this is something that stands out the most for me and not so much in substance of terms, but then emotional terms because we own. remember that footage of uh, obama, seeing in a very demonstrative lee bore it, and some would say her again fashion on the part in the cross and known shalanda clinton. and maybe it's just the russian bias. but i think there is a strong perception in russia, the west sort of maintains it's a moral grandiosity at the rushes expands that obama sort of had to meet with the

put in by to here to. but he was near to signaling that he is morally above it. how common do you think that is for the west in general, all 5, using russia as, as a scapegoat for its own shadow. i think it's 72. it in the west. um to, um, you know, and we, we take, uh so many policy you might decide to buy a normative deal on policy that, you know, but we don't engage with auction because we don't smoke bush's actions. the initial back sweep, taking the call to be claimed. but on, on other issues as well, nation since we have on it and so on. so cool with that. and that's certainly something that ends back only by any countries. other thing that, that so that's a bit of a challenge. and, and, but i think that i see that, that some of the st. the same thing could be said about some of the motion media portrays, you know, uh, the west that site machine close by the media ways. it is by difficult to have

a catalogue mid to that kind of line. you didn't use a much as you know, the state of control media invoices by much which is the options in the plug because of the sure because i work for a state supported television and i'm giving your 0 the ability to say whatever you want to say this makes you and i'm very cold to you for that. but now is the, i think the, the point i'm making is it's very difficult time to cancel. i commit to the median tryst, line it back to russia, and that, and the huge range that, that's become, was say, the pasta, hey, the, i've seen some sort of being involved in invoice from the partial that's by much to be. it's like, you know, given how much she took for other countries and by the need for free speech. it's amazing how difficult to be is to expose the alternative view on a policy towards russia. well, mr. proud and before we get the engaged or rather insurance, the now own arguments. let's take a short break, but they will be back in a couple of moments. state and the

welcome back tools, of course with in child a former graders diplomat and also roles and miss fit in most go how british diplomacy failed in russia. now, mr. proud in the book, you describe yourself as a realist and human team. the core purpose of diplomacy and indeed statesmanship is to manage relationship the twin states and to prevent conflicts. are you sure that this is still an authentic? we pursued goal of the u. k. policy because it does seem from moscow not just in ukraine, but also in the middle east, for example, that and breathing benefits from spartan conflicts rather than solving them. well,

i wouldn't necessarily say respond culture to in, in the middle east, by the, the, i think the critical, the codes don't coordinate is what we're doing to try to try and bring it in to complex around the world. and the thing, you know, the actions could, could lead must all of some criticism degree in golf. so you know where, where we've been quite slow and pushing per se, saw it at an anybody caviar way unlike boys in any kind. well, anything it was actually civilian college, the sci fi, that's fine, but on getting demonstration instructions because in that country, so like, uh, you know, that actually, um, i think there is a need for going to be, it is, you know, a place to, to buy those kinds of public funding and let me give you a brief, i say, because i in the contract, when i ask the question, i don't not ask you this sort of in a more realistic sense. i ask, it doesn't matter of strategy and tactics, and i do that also with a, uh, an experience of being a reporter on the ground in syria and libya and the,

frankly, i mean, it's hard to, or it's hard to process the british role in, in the in those conflicts and say that it was very transparent and moral. and that's why i'm asking you about this because i think it's, uh, it's essentially about positioning of breath, the within the western camp. what role do you think breton wants to play? and what's the means of fusing because clearly could not be the alpha player and that's role is reserved for washington. so what is left there from britain to exert its power to win tenants and fines and also to gain what it wants to gain within the western account? yeah, nothing can we haven't been tonight as the price mentioned to you today about one of all should be because certainly since breaks, you know, when we were determined to break free and take back control of our lives as we break st. and it seems to me that one of the biggest consequences of bikes it is that they come full of policy terms. we shouldn't be directed to place alignment with the us. and the, you know, we, us control of policy to, in some of the specs,

maybe the old book says, but to washington. so, so they weigh it when it might have an identity card. and you see that very much in terms of being culturally tell you, tell them dogs and on the crane with, well, obviously it is, it's, you know, very close. these aren't really american policy, west main street, us in the us and they're starting to emerge them. ukraine, but nevertheless not, i think we, we have to make sense of all these in the world as in the sense that you have been catching that we don't, i sort by being your opinion, but we are, you know, your opinions of the country and how we can work best with the pin on or something about you can peace and security. i want to ask you about what's going on with them and not necessarily garza but within the whole middle is today because it's pretty clear that for example, the united states and around do not want to get involved into a direct conflict. but there's sort of perception and i heard it from both the americans and the rains that there's some sort forces that are trying to capitalize on the insecure inches of both sides and are essentially trying to get whatever

they can salvage from the american global. as heritage, the americans have withdrawing uh back to themselves, they're pulling production back to the united states and there's some remnants of the global as the economy. some of them concentrated around london that may be beneficial for the u. k. to preserve, do you think you k, it may be involved in something like this, playing not only against the is proclaimed elements like rational for example, iran, but also against and suppose it alice, like the united states. he goes and how to take something that's kind of applying this started be perfectly honest. see that an english kind of a saying, i say not even the phone with dogs and actually the same only the kind of music is it was, you know, we're not taking a position on the concrete, but actually like you nice isn't the post solution, but somebody sides a solution, the voice and policy name people are being subject tools of terrible, frankly, attacks and injustices and human rights violations. and the, what cities,

right people this of the joyful content was the type in october of last year. and you know, we need as if we want to have all those states the, we need to kind of give you the, the choice to reconcile the different positions that were assigned to and, and as well. and try and find some of the long term solution in concert with the international palm is and exactly the same can be said with, with the company to new claim where, where, you know, we, we, the side with the paying was simple. you claims because on the types of time that you were in seems to be taking to all the 20 some to the west bonus. but actually what we need to be do need is no time on my team. also productively stooped can be kind enough to, to west the new train and bustle and so involved in taking sides that they need. so taking sides and complex, which is actually one of the big items that we face in terms of our credibility is consent and national kind of took from us. let me ask specifically about this special relationship between most between washington,

the london. and as we all know, anyone who has ever been in the hair of those relationships and his special relationship has it's a fair share of resentment and sometimes even um, conceal sabotage. how would you describe at this point of time? i'll send typically uh the, the ties between uh, london in washington. what are, what is there beyond the public facade and the public proclamations of a terminal uh union and internal friendship will lead, have a good boy with the us, but it's a relationship. but it's a god the relationship here yourself said that the and you're in dentist a is lost cuz you're not getting what you're warranty or not. you don't know if you're getting a sort of a short stick, a strong down the shake on the but it was gonna be on the site. so least you and the contacts. and they call me this a, you know, 10 times bank of the economy. and then it's really, it's kind of 10 times bigger than the other 3 and so on. so, you know, we all have

a much the genie apology and nobody's chicken. i certainly think we may fail virginia and palm a us has advice consign and free trade agreement with us off the after the breaks it and but nevertheless, you know that be to have us kind of helping them de voc and attacks against a z variables and so on, you know, in the middle east, so i mean, i think get somebody and even overlay shit, but i, me all of us and go american friends like of us. sometimes it's actually not like come on, we are reading this function, you're serious issues. we are discussing actually national treasures and the way you deal with those treasures in a responsible way. and i heard you say ones that you believe the americans at the end of the day are always transactional. and perhaps it's not bad to be transactional because it's, you know, minding what, what you are trying to achieve. do you think the u. k. policy would benefit from being a little bit more transactional and openly so yeah, no, absolutely. and certainly you all policy towards china, for example, where, where we see as all these types, the opposite from a policies, rules,

russian. we shouldn't pay speed, it'd be just a really engaged with or should have physical level and for the, for that can be. but with china, despite the can of course, significant differences of opinion on, on various issues. we nevertheless make you nice and by you mean casement, certainly we can have these kind of go yeah, the discussions could kind of the conflict is we need to be, let's do that. we need to build, have relationships that the site, the good little bad, the recognize that the differences exist, but still able to have kind of ground conversations at the level of need to lease it to a lot of attack. i'm now going to the ukranian of conflict. i think we would both agree the crack so with is the proposition of later expansion, which russia has seen is still sees as a course strategic threat. and what i think is far more important. it has the weapons, the strategy, and the political result to defend against what it sees as a threat. and you have, as you have observed,

the u. k. together with the u. s. have refused to of knowledge or rushes sensibilities or its ability to, you know, defend whether it's the deems to be a strategic interest. what exactly did they fail to see the, the rushes concerns which were numerous. we voice on the troops that the russia has assembled, had assembled on the border in 2021. you know, we, we had the experience some to you guys night with the wood in georgia that was in it posted by somebody kind of some circumstances. i mean, you know, some of the, the, in the west we should be looking for the piece of the claim that, that is more plus person that is more integrated. we claim to come in and so on. and so for uh, doing think they think size of the person is consistent with the idea. typically when bush is i can eventually be opposed to a site expansion. that's nothing new news with no advice if the weather the case and you and we continue to push this line. i think it, you know, if they agree here at some point i agree this year or maybe next year where we

haven't received the line, you kindly, we are the new bonus, have clarity of by that aspiration. and then you know, uh, being over, just think about it for the claims, the kind spending protected interest in the i see kind of incentives give yourself um, you know, back in, in march of 2020 to just a month out to the um, the word stars it was showing signs, it looks kind of with a way you can say your call may tell you mentioned it as definite frustration. you can see it and you can kind of go mental cycles. but actually, you know, they wanted me to the kinds of skies i think the kind they want to monet's, kind of diagnosing divine insights on a tools and getting involved. and you could, you could, you can set that out the whole thinking of protection from, from you claim to that sly, always the sure sense if you can maybe join us one day. we don't ask you going to kind of come to a when, when the fighting with the fighting sauce and then so he showed it and it's like when they to kind of concession on us from the child. even security shows isn't that sort of thing. and that was in tell,

you can also tell you the whole thing is after single decide the names, it has all the constitutional powers to decide on his country neutrality. but when do you keep referring to doing or being responsible for ukraine? sig, i wonder if you are still in this, you case position of the sort of moral brenda. also to show you do that for your own sake because i mean, does b, u, k, have the resources available, the strategy to actually support made enlargement. do have the times, the weapons of the people to fight against russia in order to implement that as a policy goal might be, you know, if i need to go and use like so i'm so you know, funding you to good guys. but i mean, i think mike, you is that actually, um, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to, to move to a site. you can possibly ukraine in the future that you're going soluble itself. i mean, you could talk to about your credit and the evaluation, so it's pretty well the wasted all also may say, but yeah, on your specific point to me, to, you know, nasal knowing to the new us new,

strong as new a, a as twice as large as much as all me. so i mean, the munitions to support their credit. i mean, you can be sad as you know, some people in america fat, but they, they're not strong. i mean, on 3 can confusing besides with the real strengths here, because it's ultimately about the efficiency of applying your research for assessing that result. full way. not getting me to do that at this point of time. going to use it. but nato has never wanted to do a cold training with uh, with flushing ukraine. but unfortunately, we kind of because the idea of nato expansion has remained on the table. we've ended up in this kind of awfully has where, you know, we know we know who wants, can we gauge with the russian and listen to like his concerns. but not even though we went in touch sci fi of ukraine to actually kind of hold on to that position, open a to aspiration. i do this when he comes to the coal, the point that we need to have a final thing on mobile is the piece where you claims future status. what does that

look like in terms of the season? a task space and to see memory best solutions and so on. sample, we finally have to kind of group i had for you. if we made a serious, as i have side as the new know, and by 630 in the corporate, in wanting cds in ukraine. okay, well, mr. proud uh, it's been great pleasure for me talking to sorta for uh, uh, becoming a little bit spice to the end. i guess how is the scale with the basic historical i'm the mazda takes through this, but it's been the most deep, but to get so stupid we are we able soul back to the pleasure was on my side as well. thank you very much and thank you to our viewers for watching hope to hear. again, hunter was a part of the

busy streets as part of the information was put in is waging the job of defense minister claims boscoe res way and you got information war against the lien and it comes. i met the bombshell golf high ranking german ministry staff flat into age you craving to destroy the crime in great, great ins president demands more money from his pap, south western patrons, leaving them for boxes and field losses as russia advanced. a cold blooded massacre. let's help palestinian officials the brand of the killing of more than 100 people. also use ready troops are accused of opening fire and crowd surrounding the 8 con void. central gas, almost 800 people. where would it.