and jump anytime you want that, i always appreciate it. all right, let's see. get off with george in budapest, george, you know, you to all 3 of us and our viewers have covered the well checkered career of the french president a manual. i'm a chrome that's very difficult to discern what he actually means about anything, particularly when it comes to foreign policy. and the last few new cycles, he came out and essentially said, sending troops, meaning french troops. in this case, it is not out of the question and to ukraine, of course is counterparts all through europe quickly disagreed with them, particularly the german chancellor, sergeant schultz, but we'll get to him later in the program here. what do you make of this? because i'm could titling this program uh some could some file a see cuz that's where we seem to be getting into. they've invested so much into this project. they're having a very difficult time seeing their way through or to, or maybe even out of it. your thoughts, george? well, data, that's an excellent summary because i think that's what's really behind this. that,

um, they chose the idea of pool long has been to continue to double down on what it has done before. it's a hesitant, there's no plans for ending this uh are booked up. so the project. and so, you know, they can, they who we've seen this path now for over 2 years lately. let's say, well, let's send this list some time. so like, i well know it was and more advanced things were you know, what about the cluster munitions, personal not only of us that the competitor to escalate take. okay, well it's 10 plus the munitions, you know, let's and depleted uranium shows, and they've been doing this for a long now it's f sixteens, you know, low. yeah, we're going to be on the train them on the eps explains all the page. good miss are they are going to do that and below and it's like we would just doubling down and that, and there's never any plan to extricate themselves. so now they mean nothing,

nothing, nothing, nothing has worked sofa so right, well look, look this the, the next stage as well as introduce um, uh, forces. so right away, oh, this app. absolutely i, i really just in the 1st think wow yeah. what do we only mean so you don't mind for those, you know, helping now middle medical, you know, just to do some supply logistical stuff, not the again, the case would be enough. advisors advises yeah, yeah, yeah. another things here is, but we know the way they they operate is that yeah, they gonna escalate to the next step. i'm a crawling fact blood at this hour when he said, hey, you remember at the time when we said we're not sending anything more than handkerchiefs in the pillow cases? well, you know, hey, and we've, we've gotten a long way from that. so i think we have to take this very seriously. everything is again, a very dangerous escalation mountain. georgia is absolutely right. i mean, on the face of it, it sounds absurd. but given the track record of the last 2 years, maybe even going back 10 years. let me think about it. this seems very possible. what's interesting, what george described is that the, the project is to,

to we can russia, they just didn't fill in the spots on how to actually do that. because what they're doing instead of weakening russia at the destroying ukraine and their reputations and their own domestic economies. martin, yeah, and the last point the domestic economy is i think is key that that's really the, the suicide pill that no one seems to realize this happening slowly. but very ms. bennett, ms. nicholas effectively. i'm i think too much on the whole mat, from the box or in the last week or so when he made the statement, i think is quite extraordinary for a number of reasons. but it's, there's definitely been a, an internal debate within nato countries. he is certainly fighting the majority of them off with this idea of nato troops. but is there a plan b o plan caesar a compromise of crime? is it, could it be most summary is, could it be phone foxes? could it be more a troops surreptitiously where in various uniforms or onto various guises,

and that's almost certainly a possibility which i think it must be. it must be being kicked around now because only it's own mini checks, but it's agreed. the ukraine's real problem from the ministry sites perspective is numbers of troops. you have been talking about rockets and tanks all day long, but really the fundamentals all, they haven't got the numbers on the battlefield. infantry was. so for macro, the site is, are interesting. but, and then also, i think mac chrome is very polemic, very media savvy guy. i mean, i think, to say those little comments, and to bring 20 member states around the table, which you did very recently. i think that's all part of his big a plan to project himself as an independent e. you, nate? so what she's trying to develop at the moment. you know, i'm learning this thing time and i think it and we'll hang on. hang on, hang on. i'm getting some b is having some success at the end that he's getting the attention of every body

and he is getting his paper on the table, whether it will actually happen or not. you know, we, we, we, we don't know, but this idea of, you know, a new, an, a european that's a pillar on him running it, i think is gaining ground. the thing is getting momentum. charge to judge. you jump in there. i mean, i'm being media savvy, a getting attention. that's not a policy. george. he really isn't the policy. um, but i think that's what he is probably getting the green light from the americans. because again, when, when we think about this as a weather balloon. yeah. it's a good hope. it doesn't get shut down. yeah. literally. yeah. but that would be in the it's, it's all, it doesn't matter. well, let's move on to the you know, this, so this, uh uh, i will move this idea forward a few yards. i mean, is there's no,

no one has ever really denied for some time there on nato forces present in ukraine . i mean, we've known this one of the various leak slip that came out last year. and we, even though even from sergeant schultz, is comment on earlier this week, which again, no one denied you, said that there are, you know, essentially the british and the french have forces left. so then if he for that is no one is really denying that winded by chrome. bring this forward as if this was some new ideas. well, obviously they want to do something additional. what i, i think what he's trying to do is to put in some serious forces not with a view to fighting a robust. it doesn't want to get involved in a, in a combat operations. but i think to shore up ukrainian morale and these are, hey, what we've got a full says, don't worry. uh, you know, we, we've got your back that we're here for you because i think that that's really what they're trying to do. they're trying to late, they're trying to make sure ukraine doesn't collapse. and i think he, he said

a thing later on in the week that, well, if we have a french full nature forces x, that should act as a deterrent. it's a rush or that somehow get there. that's not clear. what do you mean? how that would act as a deter and why that? why if they're helping with the fighting, why is it russia would hesitate to kill them? but nevertheless, he's saying, well let's it's, it's a deterrent. so it, by saying is that the tyrant of this, again, is a way of boosting ukraine's moran. i think the way that you need to use the term ambiguity, but i mean, i think you've already hit upon it george. i mean, it wouldn't be ambiguous to russia. ok. so again, this is a very quick and it is, i don't know if it's intentionally not well thought out. maybe that is the intention here. but, you know, martin, it seems to me this is also a stage of panic. i mean, everything else they've tried has and work. so the more they panic, the more they escalate. i think that's a fair statement. martin. i was going to say that was exactly what i was going to say. it is another stage of panic. and um, you know, the,

the idea that nature can even be, can contemplate take now boots on the ground. a new train is a level of desperation. and uh, anyway, uh, we are entering a new phase now in the will where the west, as i think, acknowledged that it is losing the war, new friends, losing the will and it needs to be a new strategy. now do you, do you strategize your gentle, gradual retreats and build a huge pay or campaign around the make yourself look as though you're actually the window when you lose a, as we've seen in history many times, the west have done this. you know fit now is good, very good example, but um, you know, where, where is this leading now i think, i think it's, it's, it's, we're, we're reaching a point now where the options become much more binary. and the escalation level becomes much more intense. and coots in russia, connell sustained this provocation for indefinitely. that has to be

a breaking point. and i think that a lot of the troops that we know that are in ukraine all the probably for the wrong reasons, a lot of spooks, it's about training the infantry then i'll find to, in the case of british i know from my and i do so this is a lot of them of the just to keep an eye on why on the kids. because so much of his kids being next and re sold. so if you know, you know, it was the see i have direct. so this last, if we wait and just to say, does that so landscape look, you know, i know, you know, it's ukraine. i know you, one of the most corrupt comes in the world and i know i taught understand the color shingles that but can you just not steal quite so much? yeah, i think some of the is going on with british. so yes. so does there actually that keep an eye on the equipment, but tell me where to own it. so. yeah, well i think that's baked in here. um, you know, george. um, okay, so let, let's, let's t this up. um, nato. maybe on a bilateral bay. so, you know, the brand sheet of the poles, you know, bilaterally they go to ukraine, that's the fig leaf. you know, that's not nato. it is

a friendly country. okay. so what happens if they become engaged, maybe not willingly, but in, in, in um, hostilities and they get killed. so what does nato are individual countries? what's their next escalation? because of the way it's set up is that they wouldn't dare to do it. well, they will do it. so then what do you do when you have in these nato countries brought them so involved themselves directly into hostilities and there are casualties. what's the going to be the reaction i think is it's an excellent question. i think even though i, it is hard to know what the answer to that is that because it really is just and just as you saying that the assumption is, well, russia wouldn't that, and these bull is that the way they do is continue. is this step by step escalation, it has been on only the basis of thinking that russia is afraid of taking on later

. the roughly just will not take us on rushes knows we have much stronger than they are. they did, they, they gonna keep away from getting anything gauged in the fighting, isn't there, but what do you think? don't what, what does it do then? um and then, and that just simply had no onset of that because the goal during the day would be, well they, are they gonna have to stop the, you know, people should, are fighting the russians themselves. the problem with that is that of course, there was absolutely no public support for it. that'd be like that, that's a problem. then they, they, in the beginning, step by step of getting involved in a war without actually securing any kind of what we, real quick before we go to the right martin. i mean it with, with, say, france wants to send troops. do you think french troops would actually go? it does, it, does it? it is not just the way they would go when they would fight. so, i mean, i was in brussels in 2000, and there was a skirmish on the charge border. and the french troops was sent, there was

a long brands, and it was hilarious. it was a joke. the moment the local rebels, the find, live rounds of the may scar, put and complained to the unit with the answers. why point dental? and i have to jump in here, i have to jump in and we have to go to a break. and after that break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stake with our to the the,

the russian states. never saw one of the most sense community best, most all sense and up the speed. the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin mission, the state on russia cruising and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube. the question, did you see a requested the

welcome back to across like boulevard design, peter lavelle to remind you were discussing some real news. okay, george, that's it. switch. some gears like i, i mentioned sergeant schultz just briefly in the 1st part of the program. obviously in the context of disagreeing publicly with president mcgraw on about sending nato troops to ukraine, but a lot more is going on in the it with the germany than just says, reaction to mccallum. it's been released by r t. the standard warranty you've agreed to. some on your own, it's a transcript and later a recording of um, well why don't you t it up for his george because it's very interesting considering we're not involved in the war. but george? yes, so, so what was release was an audio and a transcript. all a conversation among basic a german top brass drum and chiefs of the little floflead i'm

discussing the transfer all of the tourist missile hows through ukraine. now sergeant shoals has ruled out of sending the tours. most of the, the reason he gave was what we discussed in the the 1st. so i was like, well, that would mean sending the german soldiers to ukraine, helping the ukrainians target. the targets and russia we did because of the british and french steering and we germans and i'm going to go down that path. so now these uh, these, this i can talk to job and to abrazzo is talking about that and talking about targeting you particularly talk about the targeting of the crime in bridge. and then they, it was adult about the targeting is, where is the ammo depos. now, it's not clear exactly from the conversation, whether this is they are planning this and they just going to ignore the sergeant

schultz altogether. or whether schultz has actually already passively signed onto the scene of the country to what he said. he may say in public. but it's a very serious business because they off talking about targeting the brandy and bridge and they're talking about helping the ukrainians because it is a quite a sophisticated operation using these stories myself. and um and talking about plausible deniability. while that we make sure that we are, we are involved, but as far as the world is concerned, we are not involved. so we're not about the to the company. and then of course, we go back to something we've talked about before. there it was in the 2 plus 4 agreement. signed is september. the 12th 1990 henceforth, only piece with emanated from german soil. and it really is become quite discussing it quite outrages that we are putting up with this. the german, these flagrantly violating the commitments in paid and 1990 the only the condition for the world signing off of german reunification is that you've never,

never again really be involved in waging works. and he's been doing this in ukraine . and again, you know, in nature when no one really brings us up. but you know, all the other countries really should this with this, this cannot go on that kind of the, well, you know, george, i was just thinking maybe angelina bad about the form is suicide. doesn't apply to me because i wasn't born then. okay. i mean, you know, i don't know what her rationale is here. but you know, i'm a martin. i mean, you know, again, this is really huge credibility gap. and i think of sergeant schultz, germany has no idea of who blew up the north stream pipeline. and, and of course, we're not directly involved in the war. and you, great, i mean, what you believe from these people? i don't believe anything. they have to say, okay, whatsoever, and also this is an intentional lead coming. this didn't come out of nowhere are so, i mean, the russians are, are saying, you know, high in my opinion, at least as we, we know exactly what you're doing and we can tell to read, okay,

but i know that you can speak and say, do not speak straight or not, i mean, this is almost kind of be a reality to go ahead more. yeah, you said you said it was an intentional leak. i. i know i'm not so sure about we will have to wait and see where the bluff is being played. or whether this is genuine, what the germans haven't denied the authenticity so far. yeah. yeah. but does this, the timing of it? i'm how does it get leaks out? um, you know, it's, it's no secret. um, do you have an intelligence? there's a bit of a joke. it always always has been. i mean there are reports and the 2nd level of um, pretty spies in london. just literally going into pups. interesting german double agents because the exercise strong german intelligence has always been a joke. and the same as media, i'm a say, and the so i think this is a massive intelligence failure on many levels. but 3 things strikes me about this story is a remarkable story. i'm, you know, 1st of all, how stupid the gems of the think that, you know, the pitiful challenges attempts to distance himself from the war. can full russia,

you know, this idea of sending their own agents to, to speak loudly with the american accents in public. you know, what the whole get seemed getting the trains to formally ask them to send the real kids as though that were full russians. you know, we got a memo from the opinions units. so that's one thing that i find really hit or is most of the gemini believes up an isolated attack on russia. just one, a one show attack on the bridge will be such a deal breaker in yourself that will make, but it will be attending points in the will. that's what i got from the transcripts . you know. and i think sadly, the interesting thing from a journalist point of view is how wisdom media haven't touched the subject. they haven't got anywhere near it with the exception of the news week, which is aligned with the call on group and unintelligent services in america. but say these 3 things that strikes me as quite old, but uh, you know, i think um, germany has come so far from the days of we're only gonna send them home is to now,

you know, we need to talk about how we're going to strike. and how we're going to throughout the bridge and the and really interesting, which also came through for me was how they didn't have any confidence in the trans themselves to do this job. so they would have to get involved that have to send that people that well, i mean, it's interesting, you know, george and me get up at the curts bridge, cramming and bridge. however you want to call it. it is important. it's really quite impressive to but how in the world could it be a game changer? okay, actually, i mean, it just seems to me, you know, this is this, you know, it's, it's a, a visual that will give gratification to many in the lead class, but that it's not a deal breaker. okay. george, this other deal breaker, but it's the, the, the thinking behind is the same thinking that prevails in they. so in the same thinking that we're continually being expressed by nato secretary general, again, show them by which is, well we do this and then we do that and then, and then we do the search thing. and then bolton will magically comfortable

negotiating table so. so how will you know, we will do that with some something will reach a critical mass, and russell will come to the go changing table. so that's, that's the, that's the pro ration. now, the thing is of the concept, get also this, uh, this training. i mean, here am, is, i'm sergeant schultz going around in public saying, no, no, no we, you know, we, we can send the doors missile because this, this is somehow when you know a red line for us because of the week of december, the germans are going to be involved in targeting the targets and rush to that that's, that's what i'm think about. and here are these german senior officers discussing just about a country to the public claims. so it's the gain, is this go the continuing escalation because they don't know any to the what, what that will say can do that, and that's what it was somehow magically pulled in. what acts as the one responsible doesn't we've gone back responsive, really in a way where if you with don't later, as well as the

apologies which is interrupting or regular coverage that because the russian foreign minister set gala probus right now addressing will do you festival, which is on the way on russia's black sea coast. that's how policeman and says, have see what he has to say. which is to use most toys. let's the east village along and explore where some of the people i want this most to be friends. useful for this for this is young. yeah, of course the princess on the ancient fruits select and they learned to live together in respect and trade to mutual benefit. so that showed up pressure to be respected. expanding its influence and expanding that piece of land.

diplomats is someone who only has themselves to see counsel from the state must always find that the right where to to say that i never expected nations go ended. diplomats have always known that they have to use that they kind of go back to off. great. but yet of course can add it to each of the law school and we found the right words to bring glory to the russian lane. and it's always challenging to find a recognition to your truth. and especially in this group from some of the diplomats, plenty of those and use the words to protect russia and to help them out of

some to make and everyone respects what's going on with the freight land which i use. and this is a poem that was written by psychological is a great to from a. this is the process. yes, i chose for me. he should know. how much does the vehicle, serious with the you get a sense and there's also a pro, it plan. you're going to get this, think of yourselves with waiting to for your so you're not planning that i forgot which said that a pro which is more than a pro, it's in russia. that's a very famous saying. and you said that a diplomat. and also when you might, as opposed to people on what kind of can i answer from that, that a russian diplomats is more than a diploma and move that forward?

well, sort exactly what it said, as opposed to has more about the fact that you must find the right words to say that. so to have the rhythms discussed, so huge leaning that's through photo transfer diplomacy as well. so i must find it the way it is to you would find a place that with your good it's interlocutor, you mileage which in really finding the right words and you measure the results of the risk because it was always think it was supposed to be on the police and assuming that there are many problems which arise when you say something, you didn't tend to say, you know, for a front there's some kind of a complication, duty sheet of those issues where the, going to for that reason, there's something like the president's my crowd of friends, i'm susan defensive is and making controversial statements that they're homeless,

willing to send troops for montgomery, though it's well known that weston instruct says that we need some help, which is working in ukraine because the ground level of them kind of helping them operate long range range missile systems. be sure to go to the end of the there's a huge amount of assistance provided to train $250000000000.00 while american count, the african countries only received $16000000000.00 all combined over the same period. so the, what us, we're now hearing from west and the thing is, is that especially now that the conversation between german generals has been leaked this interesting to the found german politicians

are responding to. some of them are concerned with some that there is a security breach that this conversation was leaked. and the fact that jem and the weapons and the german offices are being trip, had to be used to make strikes against the russian federation. crime in bridge for sending nation storage facilities list status. so she's not the cause for concern for them. they are just worried that their computer networks are not as protected as they expected. so let's say that they must have found the right word for themselves to legitimize the idea sending troops on the ground for an individual major countries. that's

a year of us and the lloyd austin, of the united states, which was the recently, let's pretend dr. undergoing treatment, he said that if you crane is defeated, nature will have to fight it, fight russia. and this way he brought some clarity to the vague discussions which you used to be floated around during rush is a threat to europe, that it would attack the baltics or send them to poland. and president clinton has unsupported responded to that multiple types, edits, and it said we did a way to scan the american congress,

so to allocate additional funds to the account administrator. can you give me some thoughts? such plans are no surprise to anyone. so nowadays, sounds even surprising to hear such things are being discussed. and that brings us to how much it would cost a specialist has expressed as dangerous thoughts g. i'm not sure where she went and all these discussions about and multiple habits here in the world. just increasingly obvious, that dense national organizations, particularly the when you were to use the you have been to the united nations recently you did part of security council

meetings and we constantly here increasing criticism against the when they have that as soon as additions that as not to managing the transmission we want, you know, to ensure that peace and security in the world is there a future call the united nations as it can lead to and then special relations system. and how would that be possible and how could what role but of playing the shaping of the multiple well, the but expects all united nations was born out of a claim of the 2nd world war as we all know. so, so wonderful. that's what happy piece of west valley is when we would have peace coming over. maybe it was faced on just so the balance and sovereignty of european state in the 19th century and.