a expressive outrage of what's happened, but he also blamed m i 5 m i 6 of west and intended services for their attempts to de stabilize the region. i visit that the goal is to ensure your traits were cancelled anything without the west. and this band is, haven't appeared out of the blue who came here to improve live and protect english that you hook ups for they, they are agents of the same m, i 6, they arrive and say, we want to save our and goes brothers. but from who look us, what's happening in the middle is save them because we don't need saving me. we haven't everything, everything is not perfect, but it is fine. do you think we've got it all worked out? we finally got an exclusive access to the palm of where the 6 ices members were living until saturday night, when the intense bustle took place. as you can see here, the report, it mocks everywhere, a scene of destruction, really, the windows have been put through clear operations around the way. now, when the fighting intensified, there was

a fire in this apartment in this building on the medicines made their way onto this apartment and up stairs where they tried to make their escape by tying bad sheets together and escaped through a window. now, rushing security services managed to neutralize the old of them. they did so without stuffing any casualties and they would know a casualties amongst the civilians in this residential area supposedly sort of both of you. the special service has worked in accordance with warner and law. most importantly, they did not allow any bodily harm. thank god that no one was injured and that none of our employees died. this is all because of the special services that define our public and the city of car block on a daily basis. so this is the smaller decided the building where the medicines tried to make their escape. you can see from the top window that where they tied the bed sheets together to an active desperation. now you can see down here a, uh,

there's a whole range of stuff that come from the apartment children's toys even. but if you come down here, you can see on this mattress it's soaked with blood and the blood is on the door as well here. so this is still very fresh and investigate to the still picking through the debris and try to work out exactly what happened to just it was still nobody here in terms of recovery. there shouldn't be any questions at all, because somewhere with me is that this people were on the run and found a place here. so people are here, they will be treated. and there will be a concrete substantive solution to their issues. only housing, but all the issues as well. there's also a moral component. this is a community that still very much in shock. a community of this traumatized community does angry security remains tight on the situation for now remains under control. this is steve sweeney english at your region. salty has been great

to have your company this past call follow. we'll be back with move in 30 the hello and welcome to prospect bullhorn. john peter labelle. here we just got some real news, or nato countries foolish enough to send troops to you. crane don't put it past them. also should russian now considered germany to be beneficial enemy? to discuss these issues a more, i'm joined by my guess door to send me well in budapest, he's a pod cast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. and in merrill cash we have martin, j. e is an award winning journalist and commentator. i gentleman costs up rules and the fact that means he can jump any time you want that. i always appreciate it. all right, let's get off with george in budapest, george, you know you to all 3 of us and our viewers have covered the well checkered career

of the french president to manual. i'm a chrome, it's very difficult to discern what he actually means about anything, particularly when it comes to foreign policy. and the last few new cycles, he came out and essentially said, sending troops, meaning french troops. in this case, it is not out of the question and to ukraine, of course is counterparts all through europe quickly disagreed with them, particularly the german chancellor, sergeant schultz. but we'll get to him later in the program here. what do you make of this? cuz i'm titling this program, a son could some file a see cuz that's where we seem to be getting into. they've invested so much into this project. they're having a very difficult time seeing their way through or to or maybe even out of it. your thoughts, george? well, data, that's an excellent summary because i think that's what's really behind this. that um they chose, the idea of o loan has been to continue to double down on what he has done before.

it's a hesitant, there's no plans for ending this uh are booked up. so the project. and so you know, they can, they moved and we've seen this path now for over 2 years lately. let's say, well, let's send this so i some time. so like, i well know it was and more advanced things were you know, what about the cluster munitions 1st on the subject by the to escalate? take, okay, well it's 10 plus the munitions, you know, let's and depleted uranium shows, and they've been doing this for a long now it's f sixteens, you know? oh yeah, we got to be on the train them on the ups explains all the page. good miss are they are going to do that and below and it's like, well, we're just doubling down and that, and there's never any plan to extricate themselves. so now they mean nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing has worked sofa so right, well look, look this the, the next stage as well as introduce um, uh, forces. so right away. all right,

now is this app? absolutely. i, i read just in the 1st think. wow, yeah, what do we already mean? so you don't mind for those, you know, helping now middle medical, you know, just to do some supply logistical stuff, not the again, the case would be enough. advisors advises yeah, yeah, yeah, another things here is, but we know the way they they operate is that yeah, they gonna escalate to the next step. and my problem, in fact, blood at this hour when he said, hey, you remember at the time when we said we're not sending anything more than a 100 seats in the pillow case as well. and you know, hey, and we've, we've gotten a long way from that. so i think we have to take this very seriously. i don't think it's a game, a very dangerous escalation mountain. georgia is absolutely right. i mean, on the face of it, it sounds absurd, but given the track record of the last 2 years, maybe even going back 10 years would be, think about it. this seems very possible. what's interesting that what george described is that the, the project is to, to we can russia, they just didn't fill in the spots on how to actually do that. because what they're

doing instead of weakening russia at the destroying ukraine and the reputations and their own domestic economies. martin. yeah. and the last point, the domestic economies i think is key that that's really the, the suicide pill that no one seems to realize this happening slowly. but sorry, miss bennett, miss nicholas effectively. i think too much on the whole mat from the box and the last week or so when he made the statement, i think is quite extraordinary for a number of reasons. but it's, there's definitely been a, an internal debate within nato countries. um, he is certainly fighting the majority of them off with this idea of nato troops. but is there a plan b o plan? see, is there a compromise of crime? is it, could it be most res, could it be phone fights is um, could it be more a troops so just to see where in various uniform so under various guises and that's almost certainly a possibility which i think it must be. it must be being kicked around now because

only its own ministry. experts agree. the ukraine's real problem from the ministry to sex perspective is numbers of troops have been talking about rockets and tanks all day long. but really the fundamentals all, they haven't got the numbers on the battlefield, infantry wise. so for macro, the site is very interesting. but, and then also, i think mac chrome is very polemic. very media savvy guy. i mean, i think, to say those little comments. and to bring 20 member states around the table, which you did very recently. i think that's all part of his bigger plan to project himself. as an independent b, you may so pillar, which he's trying to develop at the moment. you know, martin is entirely a week, but hang on, hang on, hang on. i'm getting some. b is having some success up thought in that he's getting the attention of everybody on the use getting those people are on the table, whether it will actually happen or not. you know, we, we, we, we don't know,

but this idea of, you know, a new, an, a european dates have pillar on him running it, i think is gaining ground, i think is getting momentum, subject to judge, you jump in there. i mean, i'm being media savvy, a getting attention that's not a policy. george really isn't the policy. um, but i think that's what he is probably getting the green light from the americans. because again, when we think about this as a weather balloon, it's a good hope. it doesn't get shut down. yeah. literally. yeah. um, but that would be in the heat schedule, doesn't matter. well, let's move on to the you know, in this list. i don't know, but this i did before a few yards. i mean, it is, there's no, no one is ever really denied for some time, but they're all nato forces present in ukraine. i mean, we've known this from the various leak slip that came out last year. and we,

even though, even from sergeant schultz, his comment on the body of this week, which again, no one denied. he said that there are, you know, essentially the british and the french have forces lab. so then if he for that is no one is really denying that winded by chrome. bring this forward as if this was something you, i did. well, obviously they want to do something additional. what i, i think what he's trying to do is to put in some serious forces not with a view to fighting the here because it doesn't want to get involved in a, in a combat operations. but i think to shore up ukrainian morale and they say, hey, what we've got a full says, don't worry, uh, you know, we, we've got your back, we're here for you because i think that that's really what they're trying to do. they're trying to let and then try and make sure ukraine doesn't collapse. and i think he, he said a thing later on in the week that, well, if we have a french full nature forces that, that should act as

a deterrent to russia. that's on how good there i saw, clear. what do you mean how, how that would act as a deterrent. why the, why, if they're, they're helping with the sizing, why is it russia would hesitate to kill them? but nevertheless, he saying, well let's it's, it's a deterrent. so it, by saying, is it the tower? and this, again is a way of boosting ukraine's moran. i think the way that you need to use the term and to do a t. but i mean, i think you've already hit upon a judge. i mean, it wouldn't be ambiguous to russia. ok. so again, this is a very quick and that is, i don't know if it's intentionally not well thought out. maybe that is the intention here. but, you know, martin, it seems to me this is also stage of panic. i mean, everything else they've tried has and work. so the more they panic, the more they escalate. i think that's a fair statement. martin. i was going to say that was exactly what i was going to say. it is another stage of panic. and um, you know, the, the idea that nicer can even be, can contemplate take now boots on the ground. a new train is a level of desperation. and uh, anyway, uh, we are entering

a new phase now in the will where the west, as i think of knowledge, but it is losing the war. i'm, you friends, losing the wall and it needs to be a new strategy. now do you, do you strategize your gentle and gradual retreats and build a huge pale campaign around to make yourself look as though you're actually the, when, when you have a loser? as we've seen in history many times, the west have done this. you know, vietnam is good, very good example, but um, you know, where, where is this leading now i think, i think it's, it's, it's, we're, we're reaching a point now where the options become much more binary. and the escalation level becomes much more intense and coaching the russia, connell sustained this provocation for indefinitely. that has to be a breaking point. and i think that a lot of the troops that we know that are in ukraine all the probably for the wrong reasons, a lot of spooks, it's about training the infantry then i'll find to,

in the case of british i know from my and i do so this is a lot of them of the just to keep an eye on my, on the kids. because so much of this kids being next and re sold that, you know, you know, it was the see i have direct, so this last year fluid and just to say, does that so landscape look, you know, i know, you know, it's ukraine. i know you, one of the most corrupt comes in the world and i know i taught understand the color shingles that but can you just not steal quite so much? yeah, i think some of the is going on with british s. s o does there actually that keep an eye on the equipment but some way to own it so. yeah, well i think that's baked in here. um, you know, george. um. okay, so let, let's, let's t, this up, um, nato. maybe on a bilateral bank. so, you know, the brand sheet of the polls, you know, bilaterally they go to ukraine, that's the fig leaf. you know, that's not nato, it is a friendly country. okay? so what happens if they become engaged, maybe not willingly, but in, in,

in um, hostilities and they get killed. so what does nato are individual countries? what's their next escalation? because of the way it's set up is that they wouldn't dare to do it. well, they will do it. so then what do you do when you have in these nato countries brought them so involved themselves directly into hostilities and there are casualties? what's the going to be the reaction? i think it's, it's an excellent question. i think even though i, it is hard to know what the answer to that is that because it really is just in, just as you saying that the assumption is, well, russia wouldn't that and it's bull is that the way native is, continues the step by step escalation, it has been on only the basis of thinking that russia is afraid of taking on later . the roughly just will not take us on, rushes knows we have much stronger than they are. they did, they, they gonna keep away from getting anything gauged in the flight thing is they do,

but what do you think? don't what, what does it do then? um and, and, and they just simply had no onset of that because the alternative would be, well they, are they gonna have to stop the, you know, people should, are fighting the russians themselves. the problem with that is that of course, there was absolutely no public support for it. i mean that that's a problem and they, they, in the beginning, step by step of getting involved in a war without actually securing any kind of what we, real quick before we go to the right martin. i mean it with, with, say, france wants to send troops. do you think french troops would actually go? it does, it does a bit is knowledge as to whether they would go where they would fight. so, i mean, i was in brussels in 2000 and there was a skirmish on the charge border and the french troops was sent. there was a long brands and it was hilarious. it was a joke. the moment the local rebels still have fire and we live rounds with the may scar, put and complained to the with the answers. why point gentleman who have to jump in

here at the jumping in. we have to go to a break. and after that break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stake with our to the, the the,

the welcome back to across that barnes. i'm peter lavelle to remind you were discussing some real news. okay george, that's it. switch. some gears like i, i mentioned sergeant schultz just briefly in the 1st part of the program. obviously in the context of disagreeing publicly with president background, about sending nato troops to ukraine. but a lot more is going on in the it with the germany than just his reaction to mccall . and it's been released by r t. the. the editor in chief agreed to someone young age of a transcript and later a recording of um, well why don't you t it up for his george because it's very interesting considering we're not involved in the war. but george. yeah, so, so what was release was an audio and a transcript of a conversation among basically german top brass, german chiefs of the little flatfoot and discussing the transfer

of the tourist. mister whiles through ukraine, now sergeant shoals as ruled out of sending the tourist miss awesome. the reason he gave was what we discussed in the the 1st opposite. well, that would mean sending the german soldiers to your brain helping you brain is target the targets in russia. we did was all the british of french doing and we, germans on go down that path. so now these, uh, these, the select the jump into abrazzo is talking about that and talking about target to in your particularly talk about the targeting of the crime in bridge. and then they, it was adult about the targeting is where is about a depos. now, it's not clear exactly from the conversation, whether this is they are planning this and they just going to ignore the sergeant schultz altogether. or whether schultz has actually already passively signed onto

the scene of the country to what he said. he may say in public. but it's a very serious business because they all have to think about targeting the brandy and bridge and they're talking about helping the ukrainians because it is a quite a sophisticated operation using these stories myself and, and talking about plausible deniability. while that we make sure that we are, we are involved, but as far as the world is concerned, we're not able. so we're not about the to the confident and then of goals. we go back to something we've talked about before. there it was in the 2 plus 4 agreement . signed is september. the 12th 1990. henceforth, only piece will emanate from german soil and it really is become quite disgusting and quite outrages that we are putting up with this. the german, these flagrantly violating the commitments invade in 1990 the only the condition for the will signing off or german reunification is that you've never, never again,

will it be involved in waging works and he's been doing this in your career and then again, you know, in later when no one really brings us up. but you know, all the other countries really should this with this, this cannot go on that kind of the well, you know, george, i was just thinking right. maybe angelina, a bad about the form is true. so it doesn't apply to me because i wasn't born then . okay, i mean, you know, i don't know what her rationale is here. but you know, i'm a martin. i mean, you know, again, this is really huge credibility gap. and i think of sergeant schultz, germany has no idea of who blew up the north stream pipeline. and, and of course, we're not directly involved in the war. and you, great, i mean, what do you believe from these people? i don't believe anything. they have to say, okay, whatsoever, and also this is an intentional lead coming. this didn't come out of nowhere are so, i mean, the russians are, are saying, you know, high in my opinion, at least as we to, we know exactly what you're doing and we can tell to read, okay. i know that you can speak and say, do not speak straight or not. i mean,

this is almost kind of be a reality check. go ahead, man. yeah, you said you said it was an intentional leak. i. i know i'm not so sure about we will have to wait and see where the bluff is being played or whether this is genuine. what the germans haven't denied the authenticity so far. yeah. yeah, but does this the timing of it? i'm how does it get leaks out? um, you know, it's, it's no secret. german intelligence is a bit of a joke. it was always has been. i mean there are reports in the 2nd level of, i'm pretty spies in london, just literally going into pubs. interesting german double agents because the exercise strong german intelligence has always been a joke. and same as media. i'm a say. and the so i think this is a massive intelligence failure on many levels. but 3 things strikes me about this story is a remarkable story. i'm, you know, 1st of all, how stupid the drums are, the thing that, you know, the pitiful challenges, attempts to distance himself from the war. can full russia, you know,

this idea of sending their own agents to, to speak loudly with the american accents in public. you know, what was the whole get seemed getting the trains to formally ask them to send the real cause as though that were full russians. you know, we got a memo from the ukrainians. you know. so that's one thing that i find really hit or is most of the gemini believes that an isolated attack on russia just one. a one show attack on the bridge will be such a deal breaker in yourself that will make, but it will be attending points in the will. that's what i got from the transcripts . you know? and i think sadly, the interesting thing from a journalist point of view is how wisdom media haven't touched the subject. they haven't got anywhere near it with the exception of the news week, which is aligned with the call on group and unintelligent services in america. but so these 3 things that strikes me as quite all, but i, you know, i think i'm germany has come so far from the days of we're only going to send them helmets to now, you know,

we need to talk about how we're going to strike. and how we're going to blow the bridge. and the and really interesting, which also came through for me, was how they didn't have any confidence in the training themselves to do this job. so they would have to get involved with how to send that people that well, i mean, it's interesting, you know, george and me get up at the curts bridge chromium bridge. however you want to call it. it is important. it's really quite impressive too. but how in the world could it be a game changer? okay, actually, i mean, it just seems to me, you know, this is this, you know, it's, it's a, a visual that will give gratification to many in the lead class, but that it's not a deal breaker. okay. george that i saw the deal breaker, but it's the, the, the thinking behind is the same thinking that prevails in they. so in the same thinking that would continually being expressed by nato secretary general. again, shult them by, which is, well we do this and then we do that and then and then we do the search thing and then built in will magically comfortable negotiating table. so,

so how will you know, we will do that with some something will reach a critical mass, and russel will come to the go changing table. so that's, that's the, that's the pro ration now, the thing is, of the concept, get also this, uh, this training. i mean here is, i'm sergeant schultz going around in public saying, no, no, no we, you know, we, we concent doors missile because this, this is somehow, we know a red line for us because of the week of december, the germans are going to be involved in targeting the targets in rush, so that, that's, that's what i'm think about. and here are these german senior officers discussing just about a country to the public claims. so it's the gain, is this go the continuing escalation because they don't know any to the what, what that will say can do that. and that's what it was somehow magically to in what acts as the one responsible doesn't we contact responsive, really in a weird way. and if you don't need a response, which is like little children playing with the guns and mess up,

but built in lack response. it was, oh yeah. hey guys. well let's, let's, let's all get round the negotiating. they've come to a solution, but that's, and that's then that, that, that's the, that's the rationale. and it's obviously crazy and escalation then those, those as well. yeah, but we have plausible deniability, so that's okay. they, you know, we're not doing any. yeah, but that's not gonna have much impact on rushes reaction to whatever they do it that it's, it's, it's just part of the domestic and group in group consumption. i learned it seems to me that to this panic, and this desperation is that essentially what nato and washington specifically is embracing. and they had one of them part of the heart getting back to some words that victoria knew and said recently that surprises for mr. poodle, meaning they're don't going to rely upon basically terrorism. that's what they want to do to. yeah, it's delusional thinking at best. and i go back to my other point about really bad intelligence. i mean, how poor can your intelligence be? how, how bad is of to be when you don't do any contingency investigation,

a tool into what russia would do? what is the crime in a bridge or might, it might have been hit is nothing in that. you know there's, there's just assumption that between these air force and go senior officials that to rush it would just be a sitting duck and have to take it. you know, i can, there is to, um, there was so some of these guys are talking about. um not enough. you need some like 20 tours miss also really do some serious damage the bridge. and how would we do that? how would we when we already penny pinching on, being stingy about sending them 2020 towards me. so as long as the guy said, you know what, we can send a 20 or 30 bucks from the brits also some some as well. should that be that? so i'm next. you know, this is how far we've dealt with the war. it's penny pinching now is becoming ridiculous. you know, because when you fold it in the light, did it, but hang on, hang on. but then this idea, you know, it says if you want a real job is that we send a friends, raphael flights objects and to do the job for us, what do they think the russians going to do with his friends just buzzing around

what ship like you know he's like, like you watch them, you know, ducks fly entrusted somebody, you've got them, you know, cool. so going to shoot it down and then you have a massive, massive level of escalation. you have a huge problem from the west. the in the one of our guys has been taken out and that possibly could be a level as that goes back down cuz they wouldn't dare do it. i just, i don't know where that's coming from george. i said in my introduction, but is germany now and official enemy of russia? i mean, it seems to be, this is 0. and i asked that to because i know you're a historian and it seems to me that there is a missing history here. this is not a good idea. i mean, it's just very usefully speaking, ok of all countries to want to avoid being an enemy of russia. it should be germany . it could be exactly as and again, it goes back to what i was saying is that the only reason germany was permitted to re unify was that the soviet union go by,

people running for literally night. we signed off on something that he didn't have to do. it absolutely didn't have to that. that doesn't matter what the british people want. the americans wonder, the french, one of the soviet union was the key blade or, and all of us and soviet union signed off on it. but it, germany then have to make that pledge. and of course i will go 400, ok. and then the, the hands will piece, will any, i mean they for doing so, but that's it. but it's very, it's split out and i mean, it was clear, you know, fairly early on in the, the, and that's often the reunification of the drum. and he wasn't going to abide by these commitments and now essentially drama is get them back, you know, waging oh, of effectively a war against russia. the rhetoric that's coming out of germany today from the drum and follow the directions from left to right. you know, all the other than you know, the was or alternative with deutsch, send them this new left blodgett. but within, within the bonus tag, it's below the hostility that hawkins back to what kind of the, the pre will era and, and so have a judge. judy will end on this, but this,

it's been, this has been made permissible because of washington. yeah, they exactly surveys it, but as well, and the brothers and the happy on the country. they continually berating the dramas before being to be sufficiently. the sellers in pursuing this war against roughly about the british, i think what's right, what's wrong with the gentleman? 0 and but again, yeah, you go, you know, step up all your things around and then and get, get with the program against russia. so it's a, it's, i think it's a dentist and i liked the video, he sent out a tweet thing, you know, symmetric for 1st of that's still the process, you know, as a competitor to the old will, will to slogans or yeah, that's a good, that's it. is a very dangerous situation. so what we've learned gentleman from this problem program, when in doubt and when in panic as lights, that's what the rule is here. very dangerous ground that we're watching unfold in front of us as all the time we have. i want to thank my guessing in budapest ending verification, of course,

i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our dc and next time. remember across the rules, the we proceed from the fact the gemini is obliged to give explanations. let's go over the phone saying germany is preparing for military conflicts and russia after lead place at high ranking, military stall, colluding with these crazy and officials to talk it russian infrastructure. washington ad drops a goal of the some of which doesn't reach those who are still open to open to the see a spokesperson can use apps as humanitarian assistance needs to be properly delivered people in, in the chip of this. but on the bottom line here is 8, should be delivered safely to the people packing.