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hello and welcome to prospect bullhorn. john peter labelle here we just got some real news or nato countries foolish enough to send troops, you crane, don't put it past them. also, should russian now considered germany to be beneficial enemy? to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess george, send me well, in budapest, he's a pod cast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. and america hash. we have martin, j e is an award winning journalist and commentator. i gentleman across stock rules and effect, that means you can jump anytime you want, then i always appreciate it. all right, let's get off with george in budapest, george, you know you to all 3 of us and our viewers have covered the well checkered career of the french president and manual and the chrome. it's very difficult to discern what he actually means about anything, particularly when it comes to foreign policy. and the last few new cycles, he came out and essentially said, sending troops,

meaning french troops. in this case, it is not out of the question into ukraine. of course, his counterparts all through europe quickly disagreed with them, particularly the german chancellor, sergeant schultz. but we'll get to him later in the program here. what do you make of this cause i'm could titling this program. a son could some file a see, cuz that's where we seem to be getting into. they've invested so much into this project. they're having a very difficult time seeing their way through or to or maybe even out of it. your thoughts, george? well, data, that's an excellent summary because i think that's what's really behind this. that um they chose the idea of pool long has been to continue to double down on what he has done before. it's a hesitant, there's no plans for ending this uh, ups project. and so, you know, they can, they move and we've seen this path now for over 2 years lately. and let's say,

well, let's send this list some time. so like i well know it will well send more advanced things. so yeah, what about cluster munitions? course the better that's a escalate take. okay, well it's 10 plus the munitions, you know, let's and depleted uranium chills. and they've been doing this for a long now it's f sixteens, you know, the yeah, we're going to be on the train them on the 16th all the page. good miss are they are going to do that and below. and it's like we would just doubling down and that, and there's never any plan to extricate themselves. so now i mean nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing has worked sofa. so right, well look, look this the, the next stage as well as introduce um, uh, forces. so right away, all right, those are those that i've absolutely i, i really just in the 1st think wow, yeah. what do we only mean? so you don't mind for those, you know, helping now middle medical you know, just to do some supply logistical stuff, not the again,

the case would be enough advisors advisors. yeah. yeah. yeah. another things here as we know the way they they operate, is that yeah, they gonna escalate to the next step. i'm calling fact blood at this hour when he said, hey, you remember at the time when we said we're not sending anything more than a 100 seats in the pillow cases? well, you know, hey, and we've, we've gotten a long way from that. so i think we have to take this very seriously. everything is again, a very dangerous escalation mountain. georgia is absolutely right. i mean, on the face of it, it sounds absurd. but given the track record of the last 2 years, maybe even going back 10 years. if you think about it, this seems very possible. what's interesting that what george described is that the, the project is to, to, we can russia, they just didn't fill in the spots on how to actually do that. because what they're doing instead of weakening russia at the destroying ukraine and their reputations and their own domestic economies. martin? yeah, and the last point the domestic economy is i think is key that that's really the,

the suicide pill that no one seems to realize this happening slowly. i'm sorry, ms. bennett, ms. nicholas effectively. i'm i think the much on the whole mat from the box in the last week or so when he made the statement, i think is quite extraordinary for a number of reasons. but it's, there's definitely been a, an internal debate within nato countries. and he is certainly fighting the majority of them off with this idea of nato troops. but is there a plan b o plan caesar a compromise of crime? is it, could it be most summary is, could it be phone fights is um, could it be more troops? so just to see where in the various uniforms. so under various guises and that's almost certainly a possibility which i think it must be. it must be being kicked around now because only its own ministry. experts agree, the ukraine's real problem from the ministry. sex perspective is numbers of troops . you have been talking about rockets and tanks all day long,

but really the fundamentals all. they haven't got the numbers on the battlefield, infantry wise. so for macro, the site is, are interesting, but, and it also, i think mac chrome is very polemic. very media savvy guy. i mean, i think to say those little comments and to bring 20 member states around the table, which you did very recently. i think that's all part of his big a plan to project himself as an independent a you need so which he's trying to develop at the moment. you know, one martin is entirely, it's like, hang on, hang on, hang on. okay. telling somebody is having some success at thought and he's getting the attention of every body and he is getting his paper on the table, whether it will actually happen or not. you know, we, we, we, we don't know, but this idea of, you know, a new and a europe and they said pillar on him running it, i think is gaining ground. but the thing is getting momentum control to judge. you jump in there. i mean, i'm being media savvy, a getting attention. that's not

a policy. george really isn't the policy. um, but i think that's what he is probably getting the green light from the americans. because i'm getting when, when we think about this as a weather balloon. yeah. it's a good hope. it doesn't get shut down. yeah. literally. yeah. but that would be an easy. it's all doesn't matter. well, let's move on to the, you know, this was a little bit of this i did before a few yards. i mean, is there's no, no one has ever really denied for some time there on nato forces present in ukraine . i mean, we've known this one of the various leak slip that came out last year. and we, even though even from sergeant schultz, is comment on earlier this week, which again, no one denied you, said that there are, you know, essentially the british and the french have forces left. so then if have so that is

no one is really denying that winded by chrome. bring this forward as if this was some new ideas. well, obviously they want to do something additional. what i, i think what he's trying to do is to put in some serious forces not with a view to fighting a robust. it doesn't want to get involved in a, in a combat operations. but i think to shore up ukrainian more out. and these are, hey, what we've got a full says, don't worry, uh, you know, we, we've got your back, we're here for you because i think that that's really what they're trying to do. they're trying to lately, trying to make sure ukraine doesn't collapse. and i think he, he said a thing later on in the week that, well, if we have a french full nature of forces that, that should act as a deterrent, it's a rush or that somehow get there. that's not clear. what do you mean? how that would act as a deter, and why the, why, if they're helping with the fighting, why the roster would hesitate to kill them? but nonetheless, he's saying, well let's it's, it's a deterrent. so it,

by saying is a guitar and this again is a way of boosting ukraine's moran. i think the weight that you need to use the term ambiguity, but i mean, i think you've already hit upon it, george. i mean, it wouldn't be ambiguous to russia. ok, so again, this is a very quick um is, i don't know if it's intentionally not well thought out. maybe that is the intention here. but you know, martin, it seems to me this is also stage of panic. i mean, everything else they've tried has in work, so the more they panic, the more they escalate. i think that's a fair statement. martin was gonna say that was exactly what i was going to say. it is another stage of panic. and um, you know, the, the idea that nicer can even be contemplating now boots on the ground, a new train is a level of desperation. and uh, anyway, uh, we are entering a new phase now in the will where the west, as i think, acknowledged that it is losing the war, new friends, losing the will and it needs to be a new strategy. now do you,

do you strategize your gentle and gradual retreats and build a huge pay campaign around and make yourself look as though you're actually when uh, when you have a loser? as we've seen in history many times, the west of done this, you know, fit. now is good, very good example, but um, you know, where, where is leading now i think, i think it's, it's, it's, we're, we're reaching a point now where the options become much more binary. and the escalation level becomes much more intense and coaching russia, connell, to sustain this provocation for indefinitely. there has to be a breaking point. and i think that a lot of the troops that we know that are in ukraine, male, the probably for the wrong reasons, a lot of spooks. it's about training the infantry then i'll find to, in the case of british, i know from my diesel, says a lot of them of the, just to keep an eye, an eye on the kids. because so much of these kids being next and re sold. but you know, you know, it was the see i have direct so this last,

if we wait and just to say, does that so landscape look, you know, i know, you know, it's ukraine. i know you're one of the most corrupt comes in the world and i know i taught, i understand the color shingles that but can you just not steal quite so much? yeah, i think some of the is going on with british. so yes. so does there actually that to keep an eye on the equipment but to them where to own it? so yeah, well i think that's baked in here. um, you know, george. um, okay, so let, let's, let's t this up, the nato. maybe on a bilateral bank. so, you know, the fran sheet of the polls, you know, bilaterally they go to ukraine, that's the fig leaf. you know, that's not nato. it is a friendly country. okay. so what happens if they become engaged, maybe not willingly, but in, in, in the hostilities and they get killed. so what does nato or individual countries, what's their next escalation? because of the way it's set up is that they wouldn't dare to do it. well,

they will do it. so then what do you do when you of in these nato countries brought them so involved themselves directly into hostilities and there are casualties? what's the going to be the reaction? i think it's, it's an excellent question. i think even though i, it is hard to know what the answer to that is that because it really is just in, just as you saying that the assumption is, well, russia wouldn't that and it's bull is that the way native is, continues the step by step escalation, it has been on only the basis of thinking that russia is afraid of taking on later . the roughly just will not take us on, rushes knows we have much stronger than they are. they did, they, they gonna keep away from getting you the thing gauged in a flight thing is they do. but what do you think? don't what, what does it do then? um and, and, and they just simply had no onset of that because the alternative would be, well they, are they gonna have to stop the, you know, people should,

are fighting the russians themselves. the problem with that is that of course, there was absolutely no public support for it. i mean that that's a problem that they, they, in the beginning, they step by step of getting involved in a war without actually securing any kind of what we, real quick before we go to the right martin. i mean it with, with, say, france wants to send troops. do you think french troops would actually go? it does, it does a bit is knowledge as to whether they would go where they would fight somebody that was in brussels in 2000. and there was a skirmish on the charge border and the french troops was sent. there was a long brands, and it was hilarious. it was a joke. the moment the local rebels still have fine live rounds of the may scar, put and complained to the with the answers. why point gentlemen, that have to jump in here at the jumping in, we have to go to a, a break. and after that break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stake with our to the

move when i would show seemed wrong a just a whole new world. yes, to shape out the application and engagement it closely. trails. when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground, the it was a major issue and sadly, by giving the credentials and it shows the final appreciate the code and because then we should stick remotely because you will get to the city because of the control should the cases i chose customer care them. let me choose the name.

just you pretty much the folks that are on the road. totally the new level you will work at the turn your customer simply didn't do some of the risk adjust to the point is this wasn't able to sell any successful. who wants to build some of the treasures to go? and i still don't know if i'm forward to for so most of which might get her in the welcome back to across like barnes on peter lavelle to remind you were discussing some real news. okay, george, that's it. switch. some gears like i, i mentioned sergeant schultz just briefly in the 1st part of the program. obviously in the context of disagreeing publicly with president macro and about sending nato troops to ukraine. but

a lot more is going on in the it with the germany than just his reaction to mccall . and it's been released by r t. the. the editor in chief agreed to someone young age of a transcript and later a recording of um, well one or 2 t it up for his george because it's very interesting considering we're not involved in the war. but george. yeah, so, so what was released was an audio and a transcript all a conversation among basically german top brass drum and the chief of the little philosopher and discussing the transfer of the tourist missiles through ukraine. now sergeant shoals has ruled out of sending the tours miss awesome. the reason he gave was what we discussed in the the 1st. so i was like, well, that would mean sending the german soldiers to ukraine, helping the brains target the targets in russia. we did because of the british

french steering and we germans and i'm going to go down that path. so now these uh, these, this way i can talk to job and to abrazzo is talking about that and talking about targeting, you particularly talk about the targeting of the crime in bridge. and then they also talked about the targeting is, where is the ammo depos? now, it's not clear exactly from the conversation, whether this is they are planning this and they just going to ignore sergeant schultz altogether. or whether schultz has acted already passively signed onto the seat of the country to what he said. he may say in public. but it's a very serious business because they off talking about targeting the brandy and bridge and they're talking about helping the ukrainians because it is a quite a sophisticated operation using these stories myself. and um and talking about plausible deniability. while that we make sure that we are, we are involved,

but as far as the world is concerned, we're not able. so we're not about the to the come today. and then it goes, we go back to something we've talked about before. there it was in the 2 plus 4 agreement. signed is september. the 12th 1990. henceforth, only piece will emanate from german soil and it really is become quite disgusting and quite outrages that we are putting up with this. the german, these flagrantly violating the commitments in paid and $90.90 the only the condition for the well signing off or german reunification is that you've never, never again, will it be involved in waging works cuz he's been doing this in ukraine and again, you know, in nature, when no one really brings us up. but you know, all the other countries really should this with this, this kind of go on the kind of the, well, you know, george, i was just thinking right. maybe angelina, a bad about the form is true. so it doesn't apply to me because i wasn't born then . okay, i mean, you know, i don't know what her rationale is here. but you know,

i'm a martin. i mean, you know, again, this is really huge credibility gap. and i think of sergeant schultz, germany has no idea who blew up the north stream pipeline. and, and of course, we're not directly involved in the war. and you, great, i mean, what do you believe from these people? i don't believe anything. they have to say, okay, whatsoever, and also this is an intentional lead coming. this didn't come out of nowhere are so, i mean, the russians are, are saying, you know, heights, in my opinion, at least as we to, we know exactly what you're doing and we can tell to read, okay. and i know that you can speak and say, do not speak straight or not. i mean, this is almost kind of be a reality check. go ahead, man. yeah, you said you said it was an intentional leak. i. i know i'm not so sure about we will have to wait and see where the bluff is being played or whether this is genuine. what the germans haven't denied the authenticity so far. yeah. yeah, but does this the timing of it? i'm how does it get leaks out? um, you know, it's, it's no secret. german intelligence is a bit of

a joke. it always, always has been. i mean, there are reports in the 2nd level of i'm pretty spies in london, just literally going into pubs and arresting german double agents because the exercise strong german intelligence has always been a joke. and same as media, i'm a say. and the so i think this is a massive intelligence failure on many levels. but 3 things strikes me about this story is a remarkable story. i'm, you know, 1st of all, how stupid the drums are, the thing that, you know, the pitiful challenges, attempts to distance himself from the war. can full russia, you know, this idea of sending their own agents that to speak loudly with the american actions in public. you know, what the whole get seemed getting the trains to formally ask them to send the real cause as though that were full russians. you know, we got a memo from the ukrainians units. so that's one thing that i find really hit or is most of the gemini believes that an isolated attack on russia just one. a one show

attack on the bridge will be such a deal breaker in yourself that will make, but it will be attending points in the will. that's what i got from the transcripts . you know, and i think certainly the interesting thing from a journalist point of view is how western media haven't touched the subject. they haven't got anywhere near it with the exception of newsweek which is aligned with the call on group and unintelligent services in america. but so these 3 things that strikes me as quite all, but i, you know, i think i'm germany has come so far. from the days of we're only going to send them home is to now, you know, we need to talk about how we're going to strike and how we're going to blow the bridge. and the, and really interesting thing which also came through for me was how they didn't have any confidence in the training themselves to do this job. so they would have to get involved with how to send that people that well, i mean, it's interesting, you know, george and me get up the courage, bridge chromium bridge. however you want to call it. it is important. it's really quite impressive too. but how in the world could it be a game changer? okay, that's what i mean. it just seems to me, you know, this is this, you know,

it's, it's a, a visual that will give gratification to many in the lead class, but that it's not a deal breaker. okay. george, this other deal breaker, but it's the, the, the thinking behind is the same thinking that prevails in they. so in the same thinking that would continually being expressed by nato secretary general, again shult them by, which is, well, we do this and then we do that and then, and then we do the search thing and then built in will magically comfortable negotiating table so, so how will you know, what it will do with that was some, something will reach a critical mass, and russia will come to the go changing table. so that's, that's the, that's the pro ration now. the thing is, of the concept, get also this, uh, this training. i mean here is, i'm solving skills going around in public saying, no, no, no we, you know, we, we constant doors missile because this, this is somehow, we know a red line for us because of the week of december,

the germans are going to be involved in targeting the targets in rush, so that, that's, that's what i'm think about. and here are these german senior officers discussing just about a country to the public claims. so it's the gain, is this go the continuing escalation because they don't know any to the what, what that will say can do that. and that's what it was somehow magically to in what acts as the one responsible doesn't. we've gone back responsive, really in a week without later response, which is like little children playing with the guns and mess up, but built in lack response. it was, oh yeah. hey guys. well let's, let's, let's, we'll get round negotiating. they've come to a solution. but that's, and that's then that, that, that's the, that's the rationale. and it's obviously crazy and escalations unless those as well . yeah. but we have plausible deniability, so that's okay. they, you know, we're not doing any. yeah, but that's not gonna have much impact on rushes reaction to whatever they do. i did that it's, it's, it's just part of the domestic and in group consumption,

i learned, it seems to me that this panic. and this desperation is that essentially what nato and washington specifically is embracing, and they have one of them part of the heart getting back to some words that victoria knew and said recently that surprises for mr. poodle, meaning they're don't going to rely upon basically terrorism. that's what they want to do to. yeah, it's delusional. thinking at best. and i go back to my other point about really bad intelligence. i mean, how poor can your intelligence be? how, how bad is of to be when you don't do any contingency investigation? a tool into what russia would do, what is the crime in a bridge or might, it might have been hit is nothing in that. you know, there's, there's just assumption. but between these air force go senior officials that to rush it would just be a sitting duck and have to take it. you know, i can, there is the, um, there was so some of these guys are talking about um not enough. you need some like

20 tours miss also really do some serious damage the bridge. and how would we do that? how would we when we already penny pinching on, being stingy about sending them 2020 towards me. so as long as the guy said, you know what, we can send a 20 or 30 bucks, and the brits also sends some as well. should that be that? so i'm next. you know, this is how far we've dealt with the war. it's penny pinching now is becoming ridiculous. you know, because when you fold it in the light did but hang on, hang on. but then this idea, you know, it says if you want a real joke is that we send a friends, raphael flights objects and to do the job for us, what do they think the russians going to do with his friends just buzzing around what ship like you know he's like, like you watch them, you know, ducks fly entrusted w golden, you know. cool. so going to shoot it down and then you have a massive, massive level of escalation. you have a huge problem from the west. the in the one of our guys has been taken out and that possibly could be a level as that goes back down cuz they wouldn't dare do it. i just, i don't know where that's coming from george. i said in my introduction, but is germany now and official enemy of russia?

i mean, it seems to be, this is 0. and i asked that to because i know you're a historian and it seems to me that there is a missing history here. this is not a good idea, i mean, seriously speaking, ok of all countries to want to avoid being an enemy of russia. it should be germany . it could be exactly as and again, it goes back to what i was saying is that the only reason germany was permitted to re unify was the soviet union go by people running foolishly night. we signed off on something that he didn't have to do. it absolutely didn't have to that. that doesn't matter what the british people want. the americans, one of the front of the soviet union, was the key blade or, and all of us and the soviet union signed off on it. but it germany then have to make that pledge. and of course i will go 400, ok. and then the, the hands will piece, will any emanate for doing so, but that's it. but it's very,

it's split out and i mean, it was clear, you know, fairly on the, on the, in the, the, and that's often the reunification of the drum. and he wasn't going to abide by these commitments. and now essentially drum to me is it, i'm back, you know, waging oh, of effectively a war against russia. the rhetoric that's coming out of germany today from the german bullet dishes, from left to right. you know, all the other than you know, the was or alternative with deutsch, send them this new left blodgett. but within, within the bonus tag, it's below the hostility and then hopkins back to what kind of the, the pre wolf era and, and, and so give a judge. judy will end on this, but this, it's been, this has been made permissible because of washington. yeah, they exactly surveys it, but as well, and the brothers and the happy all over the country, they continually raging the dramas before being to be sufficiently zealous in pursuing this war against roughly about the british. i think what's, what's wrong with the gentleman 0 and but again, yeah, you go, you know, step up all your finger out and then and get,

get with the program against russia. so it's a, it's, i think it's a dentist and i liked the video. he sends out between saying, you know, symmetric for 1st the depth of the classes you know, is the type of the old will, will to slow down. so yeah, that's a good that's, it is a very dangerous situation. so what we've learned gentleman from this problem program, when in doubt and when in panic as lights, that's what the rule is here, a very dangerous ground that we're watching unfold in front of us as all the time we have. i want to thank my guessing in budapest ending verification, of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our t c. and next time, remember across the rules the most affordable cuz it also, we're getting the business and you clean the 3 of the of the daily shows and,

you know, maybe comes green, we'll just go through with his desktop. sure, absolutely. so see what i mean for the largest assumption. sure, ruckel even was matter of the different suited him for which of course, and yet you throw in with them in the probably just a moment. that was curious if it was give you the 2nd. yes. just to be as good as the top. so usually i'm guilty and that'd be studies for civilian sort of place to for me to on, on all things to, to do. if we can, we can move it emotionally. just some of the push to just the moment because we use new way to 4424 colors. are there any, don't know which these are i know for the don't or that exist to do, given the other than that we're going to use best opinion pronounced has come all the the the

we proceed from the fact the gemini is obliged to give explanations. moscow respond saying jeremy's, preparing for a military conflict with ross. yes. after a nice delays, very high ranking military stopped communicating with you. craig and officials deposit loss of infrastructure a lot of shows as a job the wouldn't be standing. taras myself, see a great chance of us as the decision is guided by the fact that it's not to lose the funding. direct involvement in the company and the washington, the edge drops, aid to gather some of which it doesn't reach those. what stop annual falls into the see a spokesman for it. and unicef says that you have any tear and assistance needs.