[000:00:00;00] the, the policy obtains exclusive documents verifying and opposition. party attempts to enlist us involvements any upcoming south african elections, and see building policies spokesperson says an incident and shouldn't be blogs. you can be assured that we will look any attempted to impose the a with i'd say you as well. any of the, you know, allied we would look, it's a not just as the in see the people so that we thought addictions to united states is responsible for these chaos because they are the ones who send the web us to create it all, some ice and claim the us is meddling and viewing the crisis in the country as at

least one person is killed in another round of escalating gun violence in the car. be a nation the 1st with the guys of all notice 6 months. we get a 1st tons accounts from a journalist. here's extensively covered the complex on the ground for op, safe before he left to when i basically lost all access any safe place to work from us to serve my people. i thought that i could talk more about the pieces of his time from the outside versus inside the lives of those. all you'll headlines at 2 am, i must go time. my name's pizza scott's, and i'll be back with another look at the top of the hour. see about

the of the tone of welcome to worlds, a part of the populace singles. you can never get an alpha what you don't have, but since on thousands store people or whole nations from trying to get more balls and more than economy on today's politics. i predicate its own goals and objectives that have little to do with a meaningful or balanced life. quite the contrary, they often manufacture and dependence isn't conflict as a way of sustaining themselves can be changed on itself by home. well, to discuss it, i'm now enjoying, by thomas paley and american economists. also there are several books including plenty of nothing. and the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies project. mr. bailey, it's a great honor and great pleasure for me to talk to thank you very much for your

time. thank you very much for inviting me. i'm looking forward to this. now you're not only a prominent economy, but also i think this, i'm extend an economic to store and, and what i really like about here our approach is that the, your factor in psychology, culture, morality as a way of explaining, i cannot think behavior of people or whole nations and using this a very comprehensive plan. so i want to start by asking where do you think the global economy assigns itself at this very point i want on. so in terms of strong weak what i, but i think i'd like to use a school last a. i'll give it a grade. i give it a c great. and of course, to understand the global economy, it consists as pieces. and so i, i don't think that that being is 3 pieces of significance right now. the 1st of course is the united states and this europe. and then at

a school the rest of the world uh, in the united states were having a macro economic boom, shooting out stock marketing on cash and so on. but there's a lot of discontent on the ground. and i would say to people that boom is very much a financial boom. and so things can and quite suddenly it was finance. i might say, i guess as a, something that's a substitute, but it may be insightful. the longer it goes on the closer we or to the end with the or up the economies we, it's quite clear that they're either in recession or on the edge it for a session. and in the rest of the world, the economy is stagnant. and in the background, there's a good possibility of some sort of financial problems, financial crisis from the accumulated debt put that together. and the best that you can say is. and so she great. i mentioned in the introduction that you are the

founder of the economics for democratic and open societies projects. and there is very times democratic and open societies a very hard to define because um, you know, america for example, considers itself as, as a mode of democracy. but the, the, the current choice for president, so you have this year is quite narrow. and so i would say disappointing. so it like being the quality of that open society is quite debatable. what do you put into those terms? what does it mean to have a democracy or to have an open society in this day and age? the term open society comes from list the last of uh, uh, call pop up and it just sort of comes from publish views on such as people think that the truth is accessible, that there is a truth out there and we can get it and pop up showed that even in science, that is not possible. and it's really very clear why we just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. i mean we, we, but it's the size going to rise,

but we have to admit that we can't be certain because we don't know the future. so it is possible, it is to see level, and i thought one day probably the song won't rise. but what's true insurance is even more true in social science and what we know about societies. so if we confident the troops, we must always keep an open mind to the possibility that we are wrong. and we need institutions that governed us and arrange social life in that way. and that's why i wish i could have put our lives. and it's not because blurs and such a great thing in itself. but it's the only way that we have to have dealing with this very fundamental problem. and that's what i mean by organs aside. well, i want to say it's something else going well. uh, i was going to continue on because i'm interested is obviously in the eye of the beholder. i'm, we in rush. i even have 2 words for the concept of truth. one is something that is internal and not accessible to human sense. and the other one that is very personal,

but in my society at least, there is such a concept as justice as they are. and this, and this is something that also in the beholder. and yet there are some social dimensions that could be sort of worked towards and achieved when you mentioned that the american economy is now that it's boom. do you think um this boom is democratically distribute at one person's ok is on the left button to match for the social life would be so i think we've been so that's why we have to sort of socially negotiate them. and that's part of, i'll pull it up, but what a good political system does, is it twice and negotiates them in a way that delivers, or become all joined together. same roughly reasonable for our outcomes in the united states. clearly not. there's a tremendous in a quality, and there's a lot of on the happiness, as i said on the ground that people struggled to make it me, it was, by the way, honest because of all political problems. and by the way,

it's actually very much why i started this economics for democratic and no business bodies project because i used to work with the labor union ship. and i also worked for a while with george saw. so i know it's not such a popular speaker anymore and russian, i'm, but the idea was say, if you want to society, you have to boscoe. so what is the economic basis that will supported? by the way, that's what george source you never did. and that's why i believe his project is ultimately failed. it never engaged this question. what is the economic system that will support democracy? what is the economic system that will support open society ada? this is a question that flashed to be on the table and we in the united states in europe, i failed all the countries are trying to answer it in different ways and i understand what, why they're doing it. they come from a different to that is a place to start that. well, let, let's talk about that because i think that question is at the very correct some

deal politics today they bought in administration, often uses this theme of the, as a central side of democracy is against a talker says, and obviously that includes russia in the list of a talk where says, but uh, i know from my personal experience uh, covering many international meetings that the steam is primarily use for domestic consumption. internationally. being democracy is like india, brazil, south africa. they couldn't be bothered about out of countries, political or ideological organization. they're mostly concerned about mutual trade about crime, about trans border issues, you know, pretty maddox matters. why do you seeing this uh, theme of democracy is so prominent or danger to democracy, some prominent in the united states? why is it outwardly rather than inwardly focused on who is the danger to who are here? a very good light so much that i yes i,

i agree. but the, today in the united states, all foreign policy establishment, all national security establishment is a weapon audition to proceed. i don't believe we have any interest in promoting democracy. i don't even know what democracy is doing today. the that's, that's good, that's what i, i think i think we have a rough idea of what democracy is. good more and more people realize that it's not working here. but let's stay with the point that this is a very important point of view. as to here is how we have weaponized democracy as a way of attacking other countries. it becomes a cloak where our own regression, it becomes a way of flushing other countries on the back foot. and the effect our record shows that we're not really that much into democracy, that we have about little strip interfering in other countries when they produce democratic outcomes. we don't like to have a long history of collaborating with and i'm democratic countries and we have

a very flawed understanding democracy, how democracy is deter, already caught, be the uh, the evidence of for a country that says it's in favor of democracy. we have, we're up to do here. we should stop trying to end up being in the 1000 all those internal affairs at the office. i wanna ask you um, the question that the just popped into my mind. i, i'm citing psychology and both collective around individual psychology and whenever you all started doing psychological work or any developmental work, you're start where you are and it's not a linear or progress. but essentially you're sol wallace. you will even move to the next. then there's some regression always with what is important is to treat yourself with patients with empathy to invest in your development, then to treat yourself seriously. where does this idea that societies can somehow arrive a democracy over all of a sudden that they can be indoctrinated into democracy?

come from because i simply don't understand how such a cold, complicated, and complex organism as a, as a car, as a country could become a democracy over night. they, when they for institutions are brought there. but i think that again, that is really of the essence. yeah. uh, and that's why i talked about the united states weapon rising democracy. we know that democracy, it's very hard to come back to a very long historical process. the each country has its own historical conditions . some have been more advantaged and more fortunate than others. perhaps the joke provisions of geography, perhaps variations of west scientific revolution landed earlier or not, but the actual regions of culture. but so we know that you cannot just a lot democracy over not. and it's in that way that the united states is what an isaac democracy it, i, i would say it me, but i go section countries go ahead of the game

a little bit. and they were advantaged. but now they've turned it around where other countries are trying to find ways of improving livingstone outage for their citizens. a strengthening back of an inch improving the state of a fast united states as if you don't know that democracy your enemy. and then the company was the very common was this terrible story that's through the washington's think tax. yeah. as they should have access to more top proceeds. and this is part of that. there's a, i think autocratic alliance around the world industry in denver pushing. and this is part of what the hell of a drum up. the impression supports nationalism. i know i have support for the military support for these before who was at the intervention. of course, it could be false if i be of interest as the exact opposite. look at the history of who has been involved in was over the last 20 years, which the us look something black. the defense budgets, the united states defense budget is 10,

is as large as the next 10 countries. we'll add it together right now. and i hope it doesn't last is that the united states is leading aggression against these other countries. so i don't know how to get that, but if people aren't willing to look at the evidence, and if people are willing to consider the other pop proposition, then we will just be led to by the notice which is what's happening right now. i know politics and which is particularly the case in europe right now. well i, mr. paley, we have to take a very short break, but we will come back to this conversation in a short while, playstation,

the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the

welcome back to wells, a part to thomas bailey, an american economist, and the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies. project mr. paley, as we have been talking before they break, it's impossible to ask for democracy. but i wonder if american policy makers understand the democracy also needs maintenance. it's impossible to keep it at a terminal without actually doing much work. dissing that resonates with americans because i think in the american society there is a lot of this and of history sort of feel. and they assume that once they arrive the democracy, nothing has to be done and it will be there forever. it can be taken for granted. i think you're too nice to say that they think of it times at the end of history, then all that intellectual allow. i'll lead us. what we have is. gotcha. i mean, we have, for what democracy and actually each one of the interesting, even the think i read recently in the economist magazine that does have a democracy and that from the economist has quite

a right wing magazine. and it said that the united states was a, through a democracy and, and, and we tell them not when there's no conversation really about in prison. i mailed us the some n g o. she had some incentive last people to say that we need to make changes, but there's no desire. let me think of it. i'll send 100 senators to send her to the state so that why only was 650000 people has the same representation to senators. as california was 43000000 people. and we have a huge problem of jerry monitoring when we use computers. now, to draw all boundaries so that we can really get the biggest advantage why they want to group the cost of them all together. they, when the sheet was an 80 percent 20 percent about the adult, the dominant body then rearranges the rest of the map. so they can win the sheets, which say 52 to 48 percent. that way you can actually control the deluxe,

even if you don't have a majority representation. indeed, by the way, but i think this happened twice already our presidential election, remember george bush got fewer total votes than algo donald trump got fewer total dutch than hillary clinton. i if i happened in another country, guess what i'm media would be saying, i saw, i think what, what blind to it. yeah, we could manage this thing. we could drop competitive districts encourage competition. we could talk different ways of counting village. so we have to be only the equipment to do it, but above all, the system is locked down and bo, and by big money the rich and powerful in this country. and that a work shows the corporations they own the system. so we have an extremely flor democracy right now. i don't think the economist does anything black enough justice to house more. we are, but at least it has the car industry. it says

a notes. and i think that's, i mean, you highlighted all the challenges associated with getting to power. but i think there is also a 2nd part of how one uses that power and whether, you know, the governing structures enough to implement a substantial change in the lives of the people. because ultimately politics exist for governance and it has to do some practical work all around that and on the other way around. now, um, what elaborate is at this point? are you seeing an average american has to not only get his or her interest voiced or heard, but actually pursued by the, by the politicians or elected leaders? well, look at it and discuss the status. yeah, let me just scroll back of the system, the problem a capture not being responsive to change ethics and racist authoritarian systems as you learned in russia in the, in the years. a good call in the comment in the soviet era could be pretty unresponsive and could be pretty captured. so every political system needs to think

about this problem. if you want to talk about the united states, well, uh, can i stop here here? and because i don't wanna it to be only about the united states because, i mean, the restaurant is often referred to as an a talk or see. but i, i know for sure for sure that i have a lot of lever, as for example, and there's something in my neighborhood just a couple of weeks ago, there was something like in my backyard i, i made a call. i wrote a complaint on, you know, a couple of hours later it was illuminated. so there are many mechanisms in russia to actually influence life on the ground. now the if can be, are here that you know why the important has been in power for so long. but if you actually look at the, you know, the, all 4 of the candidates for the upcoming presidential elections, we have 5 of them in the running. and some of them are pretty young and the, you know, handsome and attractive. but uh, the population, a student seems to be, uh, honestly and i'll send typically voting in favor of a 2nd party. now you may dislike it in the united states,

but i think part of that has to do with the advocacy of governance. and this is one more question that i want to ask you, how like in focusing on labels so much whether any particular government is a democracy or, and that's a talk or see argument losing side of what it actually delivers for the people. because people don't care whether it's put in a bite and you know, what's the last name, more logical affiliation. they, they care and whether, you know, they bring something that bring something that are into their lives. but yes, i, i don't want you to misinterpret who am i, was just making a general point that every political system confronts this problem. and quite clearly, russia has a political system, the ellis political competition. and there's to that, that's about, there's a lively politics that, i mean, that's part of the misrepresentation, nebraska and china to, in our society are 6. they have no box. uh, well, that takes us if president bush is a, is a dictator. he's no, he works within a political, we don't care what's,

i mean we look at the rest of the culture of the uh, warrant is important, but uh, what this stands, what supports us more. it is more important than the worth itself. and actually the president, brutish, clearly popular. he wins the election by popular consent by want to say also that again, i want to come back and talk is a good bad. i'm not an expert or an internal affairs in russia. i want to talk about the rush or us relationship. i think what we, what we are doing, actually, if we were interested in democracy, that we're saying we're doing is actually a set back to democracy. because what countries up attacked from the outside us. i believe we've been engaged not a military attack, but in a slow motion, more of aggression on the border stage with a long term plan. i would say this up, if i put it on the table here, maybe we'll discuss it. i would say it within the united states, but in the state department of the pentagon, there is applied to

a part to try and deconstruct prussia. just as the soviet union fell apart, the fractures where the republics. so 2 people here believe they can do the same thing with russia itself. the russians need to understand n. i'd states as a long term penalty against russia. and by attacking it's a bill for china, it actually encourages the retreat from democracy. this is, by the way, also what happened in this country, often 911. when we were attacked by a criminal gang, the bush administration used it, as course to roll back out democrats to really i'm not sure i would agree with their here because, i mean, i think i decided that the american policy is not very friendly towards either russian or china is pretty clear, but it, on the, on the other hand, i mean, you may have these other serial intentions. but as an economist, you know, you need to, you know, fortify them by actual means of achieving them. and the russians have known about that all along and they put the efforts and money into creating

a military sector into a strengthening the defensive and also into making sure that the economy is self sufficient. the same goals for china. i wonder if the american leaves, who have this hedge and wanting intentions actually do that homework to, you know, do the numbers to make sure that they can achieve those goals. whatever those goals are, practically no, just inform of wishful thinking practically. well that, that, that, that's obviously a big debate and that's the debate bits of debate that is taking place inside. yeah, i think that there is a re calibration taking place. you may have heard of globalization being on the rock such as well. i'm the original goal coming out of this sort of the end of history store. it was and it used to be cool as sort of the wall street model of globalization was still added. states was going to become at the headquarters of world capital. well,

wall street was going to be the headquarters and then it would have judy upon this much like say, britain today is a junior partner or a gentleman. he is a junior partner. the hope was that china and russia would come on his junior partners and they didn't accept that with good reason. but they didn't know i, i read a recent book about uh, it's called southern prius and buy in australia and also with the system was subbing. i was a, any pre owned by the united states, below which somebody imperial polish, those shopping period, polish, nash, some foreign policy is already, but it's all subservient to the uh, the imperial power. then they're all the actual states who have no foreign policy rights at all. and then this arrest, this was sort of the low speed model, and it's on a pop the what the united states was going to run the world, speak spanish. and it was really to outsource shortage manufacturing. and this, i thought it was gonna work and it doesn't work and be in the united states,

just recalibrating as a result, we are trying to bring back some manufacturing, but we're calibrating it to as a little bit of i don't see, i don't know how much we can bring back, instead we've gone on the side of aggression. so we do things like fight a blocks of trust or technology. we try to exclude others and we try to shop a charge of the economic development of others. and maybe if need be, we'll try and i think roger was finding screw ukraine and drunk some of the board estate activities to nato latrice with maybe military force. so all of the, the, the us elite is very much aware of the problem. and if this recalibrating a search, it's not it, but whether it will work or not, it's another issue. i think the world has its own and thinking to do and uh, when i attend various international organizations, it seems that many countries actually choosing the past as of the own, you know, of intellectual and sometimes industrial economic autonomy because they don't no

longer want to rely on anyone for a strategic decisions and that's an interesting development. and sometimes i get a sense that um, you know, many of them have this not only sort of urging a sovereignty, but i also am sort of a lack of understanding why the united states is resisting the objective flow of history because they, many of them see what's happening right now, notice the purpose will decline of that was with rather as the rising of the rest of the world on each country bringing you know, its own strength and the weaknesses to the for and that's normal. i'm in, this is a big world. we all want to develop and you know, help your child and develop. i sometimes wonder if all this talk about the end of history is ultimately a cover for the united states, not being able to afford itself to have this historical on long view perspective.

because russia has a china has in brazil has a many countries that have a transitional governments have it. but it seems that the united states, as for, of a locked in the internet election campaigning rather than a real discussion of, on how the country should be governed. and what are the priorities and the distribution of responsibilities between big money as a social organization and social welfare of virtual, or economy? to chris, really a last few countries that can really be anything like autonomous. i should not be an ide states is about as close as you can get to that. it's a, it's a, it's, it's called on to a size, 350000000 people counted extra the north with a lot of resources. mexico to the south with a lot of people, the north american economy can essentially go it alone. i don't think brush, i can't,

i don't know that china can. china is in need of the resources towards large population in manufacturing. so. so the rest of the world is a lot to be doing from a to existing and a peaceful world that promotes economic development. and that's what i was talking about this indeed for and i buy it and that's why i think it's such a tragedy to shift in world in a direction that practice it in this way. i think it was the really, the verizon so rushed to be seen as a blessing. this is a way that we are going to right, raise livingstone image, improve political life throughout the world when it be a stage because it sees itself and then it thrown imperial ends. and this is, it runs very deep into the culture and the people, but ordinary people see it and those down to the same crazy way that out on the o'con policy make us do. but it's very easy. then you have to add, you do a somehow exceptional that you that your or was right,

but the right to do is you want if you have his imperial mind, then it's very easy to turn the rise of the rest into a 0 sum game. and when you turn it into a 0 sum game, then you're going to have been talking, wow, when this here exception now or to shining city on the hill, that $1000.00 free, you're from, i doing some basic reality checks. and then you can look at basic economic indicators of the united states to see how much or how little the dog has brought to an ordinary american over the last 20 or 30 years. anyway, mr. paley, we have to leave it there. i wish i had more time with you, but thank you very much for this se lightning discussion. thank you for inviting. i've enjoyed it. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again on the world's