the, the, the welcome to was a part of the populace singles, you can never get an apple what you don't have buttons on thousands store people or whole nations from trying to get more balls the more than the economy on today's politics. i predicate its own goals and objectives that have little to do with a meaningful or balanced lives, quite the contrary and they often manufacture and dependencies in conflict as a way of sustaining themselves can be changed on itself by home or to discuss it. i'm now and join by thomas paley, an american economist. also there are several books including plenty of nothing, and the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies project. mr. bailey, it's a great on. i'm great pleasure for me to talk to thank you very much for your time . well,

thank you very much for inviting me. i'm looking forward to this. now you're not only a prominent the economist, but also i think the stomach send an economic your story and, and what i really like about here, our approach is that the, your factor in a psychology culture, morality as a way of explaining economic behavior of people or whole nations and using this a very comprehensive plan. so i want to start by asking, where do you think the global economy is finds itself at this very point i want on . so in terms of strong weak what i think i'd like to use of a school mazda, i'll give it a grade. i give it a c great. and of course, to understand the global economy, it consists as pieces. i'm so i, i don't think that that being is 3 pieces of significance right now with us because as the united states, as your up in and out of school, the rest of the world. uh,

and in the united states we're having a macro economic go see to now stock market now cash and so on. but there's a lot of discontent on the ground. and i would say to people that boom is very much a financial bill. and so things can and i suddenly was finance, i might say, i guess as a something that's a substitute, but it may be insightful. the longer it goes on the closer we are to begin with your, of the economies. we is quite clear that they are either in recession, both on the edge of recession and in the rest of the world. the economy is stagnant . and in the background, there's a good possibility of some sort of financial problems, financial crisis from the accumulated debt. put that together and the best that you can say is, and so she, great, i mentioned in the introduction that the you are the founder on the economics for

democratic and open societies projects. and there is very times democratic and open society is a very hard to define because um, you know, america for example, considers itself as, as the mode of democracy. but the, the, the current choice for president. so you have this here is quite narrow. and so i would say disappointing. so it like being the quality of that open society is quite debatable. what do you put into those terms? what does it mean to have a democracy or to have an open society in this day and age? the top open society comes from the philosopher called papa. and it is sort of comfortable, but this deal is on such as people think that the truth is accessible, that there is a truth out there and we can get a pop up showed that even in science that is not possible. and it's really a very clear why we just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. i mean we, we but it's the size going to rise. but we have to admit that we can't be certain

because we don't know the future. so it is possible, it is to see level and i thought one day probably the sun would rise. but what's true insurance is even more true in social science and what we know about societies . so if we con, you know, the trips, we must always keep an open mind to the possibility that we are wrong. and we need institutional interstate govern us and arrange social life in that way. and that's why, of what's happened to the person. it's not because persian such a great thing in itself, but it's the only way that we have to have dealing with this very fundamental problem. and that's what i mean by organs aside. well, it's interesting, it's something else going well. uh, i was going to continue on because i'm interested is obviously in the eye of the beholder. i'm, we in rush. i even have 2 words for the concept of truth. one is something that is internal and not accessible to human sense. and other one that is very personal, but in my society at least, there is such

a concept as justice as they are. and this, and this is something that also in the beholder. and yet there is some social dimensions that could be sort of worked towards. and achieved, when you mentioned that the american economy is now that it's boom. do you think um this boom is democratically distribute at one person's ok. is another button to match for the social life, but these are, i think was bitten. so that's why we have to sort of socially negotiate them. and that's part of, i'll pull it up what, what a good political system does. is it twice and negotiates them in a way that delivers or big are all joined together. same roughly, reasonable for our outcomes in the united states. clearly not. there's a tremendous in a quality. and there's a lot of on the happiness, as i said on the ground just, but people struggle to make it. and that's, by the way, honest because of all political problems. and by the way, it's actually very much why i started this economics for democratic and open

societies project because i used to work with the labor union ship. and i also worked for a while with georgia national. i knew i was not such a popular speaker anymore and russian, i'm but the idea was say, if you want to society, you have to ask yourself, what is the economic basis that will support it? and by the way, that's what george soros you never did, and that's why i believe his project is ultimately failed. it never engaged this question. what is the economic system that will support democracy? what is the economic system that will support open society? this is a question that smashed to be on the table and we in the united states in europe, i failed all the countries are trying to answer it in different ways and i understand what the, why they're doing it. they come from a different that is a place to start that. well, let, let's talk about that because i think that question is at the very correct some deal politics today. the bottom administration often uses this theme of the as the

central side of democracy is against a talk receives. and obviously that includes russia in the list of a talk where says, but uh, i know from my personal experience covering many international meetings that the scene is primarily use for domestic consumption. internationally. being democracy is like india, brazil, south africa. they couldn't be bothered about out of countries, political or ideological organization. they're mostly concerned about mutual trade about crime, about trans border issues. you know, print matic matters. why do you think this a theme of democracy is so prominent or danger to democracy? so prominent in the united states, why is it outwardly rather than inwardly focused on who is a danger to who are here? very good, quite so much that i yes i, i agree that the, the day in the united states, all foreign policy establishment,

all national security establishment is a weapon audition to pursue i don't believe we have any interest in promoting democracy that i don't even know what democracy is doing today the that's, that's good, that's what i, i, i think we have a rough idea of what democracy is. good more and more people realize that it's not working here. but let's stay with the point that this is a very important point for all of us to get is how we have westernized democracy as a way of attacking other countries. it becomes a cloak where our own regression, it becomes a way of flushing other countries on the back foot. and it's like our record shows that we're not really that much into a democracy that we have about low low strip interfering in other countries when they produce democratic outcomes. we don't like we have a long history of collaborating with uh on, on democratic countries. and we have

a very flawed spanning democracy. how democracy is deter, ready, con, be the the evidence of for a country that says it's in favor of democracy. we have work to do here. we should stop trying to end up being in the a 1000 others. the internal affairs of office. i want to ask you um, the question that the just popped into my mind i, i'm citing psychology and both collective around individual psychology. and whenever you all started doing psychological work or any developmental work, you're start where you are and it's not a linear or progress, but essentially you're sol wallace. you will even move to the next. then there's some regression always with what is important is to treat yourself with patients with empathy to invest in your development, then to treat yourself seriously. where does this idea that societies can somehow arrive a democracy over all of a sudden that they can be indoctrinated into democracy? come from because i simply don't understand how such a cult,

complicated and complex organism as a, as a car, as a country could become a democracy over night. they, when they for institutions are brought there. but i think that again, that is really of the essence. yeah. and that's why i talked about the united states weapon rising democracy. we know that democracy is very hard to come back to a very long historical process. each country has its own historical conditions, some have been more advantaged and more fortunate than others. perhaps the joker reasons of geographies, perhaps variations of west scientific revolution landed earlier or not, but the actual regions of culture. but so we know that you cannot just, i want democracy over not. and it's in that way that the united states is what the nice think democracy i would say, the right angles action countries go ahead of the game a little bit. and they were advantage. but now they've turned it around where i

think countries are trying to find ways of improving living standards for their citizens. a strength name back of an inch, improving the state of affairs. united states as if you don't know the democracy, your enemy. and then the company was the very common or was this terrible story that's through the washington st tax. yeah. as it should have access to more talk or 6. and this is part of that. there's a, i think autocratic alliance around the world industry in denver pushing. and this is part of what, how they drum up, the impression supports nationalism. i don't know, i have support for the military support for each for him. was it the intervention? of course it's going to be false. if i be of interest as the exact opposite. look at the history of who has been involved in was over the last 20 years, which the us look something like the defense budgets the you did on it states defense budget is 10. is as large as the next panel compress. we'll add it

together right now, and i hope it doesn't last is that the united states is leading aggression against these other countries. so i don't know how to get that. but if people aren't willing to look at the evidence, and if people are willing to consider the proposition, then we will just be led by the nose, which is what's happening right now and all politics. and which is particularly the case in europe right now. well and mr. paley, we have to take a very short break, but we'll come back to this conversation in a short while police station, the the,

[000:00:00;00] the welcome back joelle's appointments to thomas paley, an american economist, and the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies. project mr. paley, as we have been talking before they break, it's impossible to ask for develop person. but i wonder if american policy makers understand the democracy also needs maintenance. it's impossible to keep with a turnover without actually doing much work. do you think that resonates with americans? because i think in the american society there is a lot of this and of history sort of feel. and they assume that once they arrive the democracy, nothing has to be done and then they'll be there forever. it can be taken for

granted. i think you're too nice to say that they think of it in terms of the end of history that not that intellectual. well, i'll lead us. um, what we have is capture. i mean, we have, for what democracy and actually each one of the interesting, even the think i read recently in the economist magazine that those are the democracy index on the economist is quite a right wing magazine. and it said that the united states was a, through a democracy and, and, and which has not when there's no conversation really about in prison, i mailed us this, i'm n g o z. yeah. some sent our last people to say that we need to make changes, but there's no design. i mean, think of it. i'll send 100 senators to center. it is the state so that while name was 650000 people has the same representation to senators, as california was 43000000 people. and we have a huge problem at jerry monitoring when we use computers. now draw all boundaries

so that we can really get the biggest advantage why? big one, a group cost of them all together. they win. the chic was an 80 percent 20 percent about the adult. the dominant body then rearranges the rest of the map, so they can win the sheets, which say 52 to 48 percent. that way you can actually control the deluxe, even if you don't have a majority representation. indeed, by the way, but i think this happened twice already our presidential election, remember george bush got fewer total votes than algo donald trump got fewer total dutch than hillary clinton if that happened in another country. yes. what our media would be saying are, so i think what, what blind to it. yeah, we could manage this thing. we could drop competitive districts in college competition. we could talk different ways of counting voltage. so we have to be only the equipment to do it. but a bustle, the system is locked down and go and buy big money,

the rich part of this country, and then they work through the corporations. they own the system. so we have an extremely slow of democracy right now. i don't think the economist does anything black enough justice to house more we are, but at least it has the kite it in the stage says notes. and i think that's, i mean, you highlighted all the challenges associated with getting to power. but i think there is also a 2nd part of how one uses the power and whether, you know, the governing structures enough to implement a substantial change in the lives of the people. because ultimately politics exist for governance and it has to do some practical work around that and on the other way around. now, um, what elaborate is at this point? are you seeing an average american pass to not only and gab hughes or her interest voice or heard, but actually pursued by the,

by the politicians or elected leaders in the, in the sense of status? yeah. let, let me just roll back up the system. the problem of capture not being responsive to change ethics and racist authoritarian systems as you learned in russia in the, in the years. a good call in the comment in the soviet era could be pretty unresponsive and could be pretty captured. so every political system needs to think about this problem. if you want to talk about the united states, well, uh, can i stop here here? and because i don't wanna it to be only about the united states because, i mean the restaurant is often referred to, isn't a talk or see, but i, i know for sure for sure that i have a lot of lever, as for example, and there's something in my neighborhood, just a couple of weeks ago, there was something like in my backyard i, i made a call, i wrote a complaint and you know, a couple of hours later it was eliminated. so there are many mechanisms in russia to actually influence life on the ground. now, the if can be, are here that you know why the important has been in power for so long. but if you actually look at the, you know, the,

all 4 of the candidates for the upcoming presidential elections, we have 5 of them in the running. and some of them are pretty young and the, you know, handsome and attractive. but uh, the population, a student seems to be, uh, honestly and i'll send typically voting in favor of a certain party. now you may dislike it in the united states, but i think part of that has to do with the advocacy of governance. and this is one more question that i want to ask you, how like in focusing on labels so much whether any particular government is a democracy or, and that's a talk or see andre losing side of what it actually delivers for the people. because people don't care whether it's put in a bite and you know, what's the last name, more logical affiliation. they, they care and whether, you know, they bring something that bring something better into their lives. but yes, i, i don't want you to misinterpret who i was just making a general point, but every political system confronts this problem. and quite clearly, russia has

a political system, some of this political competition. and there's, there's a, that's about, there's a lively politics that, i mean, that's part of the misrepresentation, nebraska and china to, in our society a 6 i have no box politics is if president, good music is a dictator. he's no, he works within a political, we don't care. what's the, i mean, middle of the rest of the culture of the, uh, warrant is important, but uh, what this stands, what supports us more. it is more important than the worth itself. kind of a after the president is clearly popular, he will shoot elections by popular consent by want to say, well, so that again, i want to come back and talk is a good bad. i'm not an expert or an internal affairs in russia. i want to talk about the evidence rush or us relationship. i think what we, what we are doing, actually, if we were interested in democracy, that were saying we're doing is actually a set back to democracy. because

a lot of countries attacked from the outside us. i believe we've been engaged not a military attack, but in a slow motion, more of aggression on the border states with a long term time. i would say this up, if i put it on the table here, maybe we'll discuss it. i would say that within the united states, but in the state department of the pentagon, there is applied to a part to try and deconstruct prussia. just as the soviet union fell apart, the fractures where the republics. so 2 people here believe they can do the same thing with russia itself. the russians need to understand in i'd states as a long term, m a t, a gauge, russia, and by talking it's a bill for china. it actually encourages retreat from democracy. this is, by the way, also what happened in this country, often 911. when we were attacked by a criminal gang, the bush administration used it, as course to roll back out democrats to really i'm not sure i would agree with their here because, i mean, i think i decided that that american policy is not very friendly towards either

russian or china is pretty clear, but the, on the, on the other hand, i mean, you may have these as are several intentions. but as an economist, you know, you need to, you know, fortify them by actual means of achieving them. and the russians have known about that all along and they put the efforts and money into creating a military sector into a strengthening the defensive and also into making sure that the economy is self sufficient. the same goals for china. i wonder if the american leaves, who have this hedge and warning intentions actually do that homework to, you know, do the numbers to make sure that they can achieve those goals. whatever those goals are practically not just to inform of wishful thinking. but practically, well that, that, that, that's obviously a big debate and this to the benefits of debate, but it's taking place inside. yeah. i think that there is a re calibration taking place. you may have heard of globalization being on the

rocks such as well. i'm the original goal coming out of this sort of the end of history store. it was used to be cool as sort of the wall street model of globalization was still edit. states was going to become at the headquarters of world capital. well, wall street was going to be the course, and then it would have judy apartments much like say, britain, today is a junior partner or a gentleman. he is a junior partner. the hope was that china and russia would come on as junior partners, and they didn't accept that with good reason. but they didn't know i, i read a recent book about uh, it's called southern pre owned as a buy in australia. and also with the system was a subbing i was a, any pre owned by the united states below which somebody imperial powers, those shopping periods. bosh, some foreign policy is already, but it's all subservient to the uh, the imperial power. then they're all the actual states who have no foreign policy

rights at all. and then this arrest, this was sort of the low speed model. and it's on a part of what the united states was going to run the world to speak spanish. and it was really to outsource shortage manufacturing and this, and they told me it was gonna work and it doesn't work and be in the united states just recalibrating as a result, we are trying to bring back some manufacturing, but we're recalibrating it to as a little bit of i don't see, i don't know how much we can bring back. instead we've gone on the side of aggression. so we do things like 5 blocks of trust or technology. we try to exclude others and we try to shop a charge of the economic development of others. and maybe if need be, we'll try and i think roger was finding screw ukraine and drunk some of the board estate activities to nato latrice with maybe military force. so all of the year the us elite is very much aware of the problem. and if there's recalibrating a search, it's not it. but whether it will work or not,

it's another issue. i think the world has its own uh, thinking to do and uh, when i attends various international organizations, it seems that many countries actually choosing the past as of their own, you know, of intellectual and sometimes industrial economic autonomy because they don't no longer want to rely on anyone for a strategic decisions and that's an interesting development. and sometimes i get a sense that um, you know, many of them i have this not only sort of urging a sovereignty, but i also am sort of a lack of understanding why the united states is resisting the objective flow of history. because many of them see what's happening right now. notice the purpose will decline of that was with rather as the rising of the rest of the world on each country and bringing you know, its own strength and the weaknesses to the foreign. that's normal. i'm in, this is

a big world. we all want to develop and, you know, help each other and developed. i sometimes wonder if all this talk about the end of history is ultimately a cover for the united states. not being able to afford itself to have this historical on long view perspective. because russia has a china has in brazil, has a many countries that have a transitional governments haven't, but it seems that the united states, as for eval, locked in the, you know, election campaigning rather than a real discussion of on how the country should be governed. and what are the priorities and the distribution of responsibilities between big money as a social organization and social welfare of virtual or economy? to chris, really a last few countries like can really be anything like or thomas, i should be like the night states is about as close as you can get to that. it's a,

it's a, it's, it's caught on to a size 350000000 people counted extra, the north of a lot of resources, mexico to the south with a lot of people. the north american economy can't essentially go it alone. i don't a rush. i can't, i don't know that china cab china is in need of the resources towards large population in manufacturing and so on. so the rest of the world is a lot to be doing from a to existing into a peaceful world that promotes economic development. and that's what i was talking about this indeed for night, but, and that's why i think it's such a tragedy to shift and weld the direction that fractures it in this way. i think it is the really the, the rise of the rest should be seen as a blessing. this is a way that we are going to right raise living stuff which improves political life throughout the world. when they did it states because it sees itself in it. so in

imperial ends, and this is, it runs very deep into the culture and the people, but ordinary people see it and those down to the same crazy way that out on new york on policy makers do. but it's very easy, then you have to add you that you are somehow exceptional that you, that your or was right, but the right to do this, you want, if you have this imperial mind, then it's very easy to turn the rise into the rest into a 0 sum game and when you turn it into a 0 sum game, then you're going to have been talking. wow, you went into your exceptional or shining city on the hill, that $1000.00 tree you're from. i'm doing some basic reality checks and then you can look at the basic economic indicators of the united states to see how much or how little dog has brought to an orange in their american over the last uh, 20 or 30 years. anyway, mr. paley, we have to leave it there. i wish i had more time with you,

but thank you very much for this se lightning discussion. thank you for inviting. i've enjoyed it. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again on the world's a part of the or the, the issue that we have to initially see. and what is patient's ability to be able to have like a special ed in a younger civilian motor pulse your efficiently and the and chatting with them. awesome. the hands of showing shootings on our system. we have some sort of one. and i'm wondering if somebody wants to split that are starting as low as what i

actually showed. it will be something else to the most useful that i'm doing good and yourself. i know him, you know, the expects the smoke, but when he is the isn't boy most, but he had some grammar and the boys you'd see the youth with a somewhere below. and that's the money being made. and then assuming anthony is from a key within the united nation, then, you know, lane continues and interest, additional them for that or can you but you're still showing what are you mean by the southern using

the oxy obtains exclusive documents outlining a south african opposition policy attempt to enlist us involvement in the upcoming elections. and thebuilding policy says it's any intervention will be blocked. you can india showed that say we will look any attempt at imposing a way. i'd say us, so any of the, you know, allies, we would locust a not just as the in see the people so that we can get into some testing with our new choose the united states is responsible for these chaos because they are the ones who send a web us to create it all items claim us this feeling,