to excel us troops effectively, the us went out of its way to transform its role as a combat operation. interact to one of an advisory role at the expense of the express will of the iraqi people. so if they didn't get the hand to, then i struggled to see how they're going to get to hand. now, besides if of course, the p a math make some serious moves to escalate it's, it's attempts to expel us troops by force to stay with our to international up next on cost talk peter lavelle and his guests discuss the big talk, but empty words coming out of europe, about ukraine by the the,

[000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter live out. big talk empty words. how else to interpret the contradictory pronouncements coming out of europe and capitals on the subject of ukraine. bluster and threats are not a coherent policy. in fact, it is an indication of panic. meanwhile, remember russia does not bluff. it asked the cross talking ukraine. i'm joined by my guest, anthony webber in word think he is an independent political commentator in belgrade . we go to stephen gaiety. he is a research associate at build raids institute of european studies and in lisbon we

cross alexander guerrero. he is an international legal analyst, right. gentleman cross lock rules and the fact that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate a steve, and let me go to you 1st. and in belgrade as an outside observer, like i am of all of this going on in europe a who's speaking for whom. and what is the message when it comes to ukraine? steven, that is a very good question because we see a lot of move walkers here who are sending different messages. and i think that is because they are in between the nato agenda, which is escalade story. and if the situation to ukraine and with there are really 3 industries were going better, they would probably even be more aggressive. and on the other side, they have their own people who have no idea why the, how are their armies already involved when it comes to sending aid and perhaps people. and they are especially not happy about the possibility of direct a war between these respective countries. in the rush,

so that is why the politicians are jumping on on this hot rocks and trying to somehow navigate between between the agenda that they all have and, and their own population. so that is why we hear shots say one thing or on the other as well. look around this name is been mentioned already, anthony, let me go to the only thing with chrome and, and napoleon have in common as they were both small men. other than that, there is no similarity here. why is the chrome mouth being off the way he does? remember at the beginning of all this, he was the dog. now he's turning around and calling anyone that disagrees with them, a coward. what's the evolution of a crowd near as well he's, he's bullied back to the base on the multi site because he's downsizing from something that is seeking piece. this is the role with the patient. encouraging uh, the escalation is somehow um, encouraging piece,

which is absolutely ridiculous. but some business, right, but not quite installed, shouldn't be job in the past and started the pro is not super clear. um i will try to do the 5, but the me i that's a um are you got people like nights i saturday general us i know what the probably needs is. i mean ition. i'm not really quite to date such a rice because they the reality is throughout europe there's actually no unification. that's all that was speaking with different voices. you called the president trying to cite the united states when they're actually knots. and we've got a situation here where the guys have to face the fact that the client has actually been losing this conflict for some considerable time and how they actually going to deal with that. but the added problem is there's

a loss of elections in the countries to see it. yeah. and the key points about all of this is not one uh trunks for a pop by being all say, opinion. so i don't know if these policies gates, russia, i'm supporting the current governments in the price of any mine very well set that up and that's very key. and they talk about democracy. there's no democracy, there's always more money. all this huge expenditure public money without any overall shape analysis and then so the bodies, it's done. so he said that's why didn't but take to the bar in the united kingdom is spent 12000000000 site fall, cho built in, which is solely needed to develop. i is, i'm at the same time assumptions are getting frustrated, rebounded, and the cases of this i've had huge rises and the costs of energy and the costs of

living. and it's a disaster situation. i bought the pump. they can also allow me to have an opinion on this isn't a big uh, there's a lot said about the fact that people in russia doesn't have an opinion which are not allowed to go forward in the u. k. e. uh the, the media's some controlled but your costs have another well you, you could have an opinion, it'll just be censored. okay, that's, that's their method that alexandra, you know, we had the lot being president in the i refer to the ball to republic says the baltic chihuahuas on this program. he said he was quartered in saying russia must be destroyed. well, isn't that nice coming from a little country like lafayette and also we have other baltic republic saying that the u. k. should return conscription. so how do you react to that? it's nice that another country thinks another country should have conscription. what does a lot be a good to throw into the, into the mix here. i mean,

how many you halls, full of weapons do they have alexander? it's easier for them to say this, the i kind of catching the wave and the reminded me that plastic case of the younger brother who trusted deezen bully, everyone because he knows that he has an older brother that can go to his rescue in case of trouble so he seems to me that the 3 presidents from the baltic states are on the heads of the argument. they behaving this way because they know that they have someone on their back that will try and please not only to follow what they are saying, but at the same time to protect them and to, to confirm these words. however, lucky and not only has nothing but we have only a also see weeks ago that for example, denmark promised to send all the material artillery. they had at least you for 2 brain. and then you realize it's only 14 how beach this so it's not much, but the police to the finally called us when they are trying to say is that we are giving whatever we have a speaking of prescription, for example,

i speak for knowing the situation in menu opinion and countries easier to say for granting is to keep fighting until the last 2 brain. but when it comes up to the, to the situation where our own citizens should be deployed to the battle route to the battlefield, then that's a whole different story. that's kind of solution. usually most the majority of the people did not support we've unplugged to send our signs our grandchildren to the war, but we won't be other support for us. because if you see, even from france's, press the press for french residents, words, what she says usually is we are going to the boy as some of the lead, terry, in some way, are you great? and she wasn't, she was too vague. but at the same time, she's not saying that she's going to confront the russia because she knows how unpopular such words would be understood by the french or from what i understand alexander's a, it's 6768 percent of french people. paul,

do not want french soldiers going to ukraine. again, this is an elite agenda, you know, stephen, one of the things, you know, when i look at these european leaders and i don't know, my guess i'm a chrome, this has an inferior already complex, or he's competing with sergeant schultz or something like that. and we, we don't need political science, we need psychologists, i suppose, to understand these people. but you know, the moral ization rusher must not be allowed to wait. and what does that mean stephen? that means that they have a problem with the numbers and, and with reading what is going on on the ground. but it is also a very dangerous spot, because these words can eventually turn it into into moves which will cause escalation. the scenario, the possible scenario that i see is that uh at the beginning you would have made the forces over to enter wesley. and practically police

a occupied to be quite blunt. they would practically be occupation forces in ukraine in central advice. and you've trained perhaps you have to. but there, the point of them being there a would be to release old, the police man, all the national guard and honor security forces, all of ukraine to go to the meat grinder in the east. and that is how i call a slow escalation and slow. and i think involvement that can actually become a lot of i was even steve. and these are you bring up an interesting point here. so if you are ukranian, cells are being sent to the meat grinder and there's some french guy sitting in a cafe in care. but what do you think he's gonna think my life is worth less than the french guys. steven? exactly. i think they are, they, i mean, this was done from the beginning, but i think now they're starting to realize that on the front you see that the

people are doing everything to try to not end up in the mead rides or people are driving the local uh, maybe 3 authorities, they're trying to rescue themselves by running away on the border and they're being cost and then sense to the mean grinder. i mean, this is the dire situation of man in ukraine is really something that should be uh, called a humanitarian catastrophe. but it is not, i mean, this is against, uh, uh, the, the, the war war. this is against any kind of, uh, so let's say ethics of, of war. but that is exactly what we're seeing. well, i'm glad i'm glad saving you brought up the work ethics here. let me go to anthony . now, i mean lindsey graham o pines again. you know, he's complaining of the conscripting age is too high. they need to lower. we need to get these younger guys here. i mean, it's just amazing to see how western politicians are willing to, to use and ukrainians as cannon fodder and the always that, you know,

american troops. i mean, what a ghoulish way to approach things, anthony. yeah, yes, it's terrible. the loss of the psycho breast and read is not are actually has the amount of tree experience themselves. sites are quite happy for other people to type type the races, but not them are not very uh, sums endorses and a such a as i said to try to find the situation because of the printing casualties. so paul, a 1400000 pets died weight and did this again, not shit and shit. and on suddenly the rushing casualties about 288000 equivalent. so the situation is almost high level for the credit points of view. and it's probably much like the guitar and grace of not. so you drove the right people to starting to use around, right. so the old mass, but there were a few die all people around. but it's concerning that,

that some people, particularly in the united states, and indeed in the country who will be happy for the ukrainian bio population. but states are be whites out just states such as well i've, i've heard so the, it's a blood glass. last is what it is here, gentlemen. we're here, we're approaching a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on you can stay with our team, the crime here for almost 3 centuries. it's been a strong code of russian culture 10 years ago of the events that divided dependence is history into before and after. it became part of russia for good.

the, the voice of this sort of the, somebody tech to me plus or civil fitness, the superficial if the board, the different chest here, it was more or less to. but that will, jeff has to do some we do the with the cleaning station trista most. but what i think was in the midst of which is the port boulevard, the quote was pretty crossed and the good person it says gets, it was a decent letter. but it is a floor federal investigative, but only just the internet to the spirit. i didn't, i suppose by us then probably book with little things, but little simple story to chipped over to vehicle. because danielle, could we move in, you receive the,

the welcome x across software. all things are considered, i'm peter roosevelt's remind you were discussing. you create the okay, let's go to alexander and live, and let's keep with this, this theme of a true, a nato troops being sent to central ukraine, western ukraine as an exemplary force or something like that. we train what i don't know, but you know, is that is, is there a built in assumption on the part of nato think or is if that's not a contradiction in terms of that the russians wouldn't dare to touch those troops. that's a pretty big assumption to have. alexander. yes, do you think the next step,

of course, the russians, i can see the russians having to a lot of these dashes do hit naples troops wherever they are, regardless if they are in a so terry thr, resorting, they are in your brain in west circuit eastern west and central, whatever. but at the same time, we have just the focus and to the to see what's, what would be the mission of these nathan troops are, where are they going to be deployed as are only the french spots are obese, posted by the french? or are they going to be gray sponsors by nature of this will be a decisive factor in order to decide. and one of the stand talking, the russians dealing with these forces at the same time. because we have seen so far that there are a lot of military stocks from the 2 countries be great. not only gatherings for meetings, not only for the technical purposes, but they have been there and many of them have been dying in the battlefield. the problem is to see if they are going to at tech,

do bring it troops in certain areas, or if they are going to start any kind of look at the action in order to force, rush it to a deck, and then use russia all objections. first in 1st place, but i don't see any kind of confession from nato countries or even by france alone . you start any kind of conflict, ultimately 30 project office cameras, but, but i would render if they're in the battle field, they're in the battle space. what differences a make, i don't think, you know, if these forces, whatever they're doing with their aiding and abetting a military to kill russian soldiers. so they are the enemy as well. how could it be different? yes, the problem is if they publicly it means that they are on the ground, while at least through the present time, they have never admitted, but they weren't the battle wrong. they weren't the battlefield, they were not always friends, they're not only german of police, but also from the united states. they have been to during concentrations. the problem is that people look, well,

we know that they are assuming you'd be both leaks. then they want to start to use it as being some kind of trigger in order to go to create any kind of facing a possibility with russia. okay, talking about triggers. well then stephen, let's, let's think about it logically, i know western leaders don't do this, okay? but, you know, then, you know, we have the article 5 come into into play here, okay. i mean, if, if they're going to go into the battle space, okay, and there is a exchange, there are casualties, then they're in a state of war. but then you may to cannot invoke the article 5 because they've already violated article want that they would not go into a military conflict here. so i mean they're, they're shredding their own logic in their own law. go ahead, stephen. we're going into a philosophical discussion now because what nato has been doing for the last 2 years, if not much longer, is to get involved as much as possible into the war. but for the rest of the world,

the thing that nato is not into work. so for his us treasury policy has made its coalition for munitions. and so they are gathering the gather them, deployed 800160 5 millimeters shelves from they, they claim they bought it in, in the south korea and other countries and other major countries are involved in this. however, they are pretending to be, you don't need to, but that this is a, some kind of coalition of the willing, remembered the phrase from 2003 when bush a back to iraq. so it was a made. so it was called vision of the willing. so what they're doing now is exactly that need to else. all right, well steve and i can up the anti here. adelene a better bach? what 1? 80 degrees? better boxy wants to have somehow german missiles are sold to the british so the british can send them to ukraine. i don't know what kind of food was going to be raised by the weight, but it would see for some reason not the defense minister would be able to control

coordinates. i'd be a, this is getting insane and somebody react to that as well. the it is inside the recalls are pretty insane. the, on the defense, i prefer i ground stotts is likely to, to get along with that. but there are consequences for the current rate, which um i get so hopefully involved in helping uh, pricing eco, russian soldiers and in the u. k. do you guys just lost the major fishing agreement with brochure um, which is to do, but it's a, it's the staple dogs in many people in the united kingdom, official objects and go back out to see a scar or do i increase the price of fish in the united kingdom because this has been withdrawn of, i think russia is actually being for moderates and it's a reaction to various european countries. so the anthony,

we did this on the especially issue here. so the british public will be denied fish, but the russian public will be able to eat fish. yeah. how is that a sanction as well? that's the good. i'm sorry, go ahead. well, well, they've already found it again. see if i can get them like the looks of it. consequences of having such a policy because the, the due date. so i can sure exactly work. but if we guys, thoughts of the subjects of people killed is only the b, 5900. the 62 on soldiers killed in, in the ukraine, a good proportion advisor in the united kingdom. and uh, it's been a bit of a tougher off how much longer of the bus is probably going to be denied the information because they're supposed to be. you guys have delta dental of intelligence to help with the training,

to make sure the 5 ohms is all i try. but in reality, that how things are right offensive operations. again, instruction forces. i'm not so now i'm not a rule on this. they no power meant show pharmacy in the united kingdom, and she conduct for like actions against russia and already the united kingdom and government. so maybe i'll take out the events all trucking a very fine line with volt battery. well, i, i suppose this is one of the applications of the rules based order that we keep hearing about, okay, you break all the rules because we want to control that determine what is order. this is ridiculous here, alexander, you, we have. speaker johnson in the united states is. 4 thing about a stand alone bill for more a ukraine. i thought he'd come to his senses, but he hasn't. of course. um, an interestingly enough for republican house control,

there's going to give bite in the political when and election years. explain that to me here, but it's not going to make any difference. anyone that knows. i've listen to a lot of military experts, and this is just the way, okay, of course companies in the united states, they will of a benefit, but this is not going to benefit ukraine. to be honest, i think that even speaker johnson doesn't know what kind of a stand alone they tech is. will this be because he's proposal still presents very vague, char, we both know yet how is it even going to be submitted on the formal way. but at least appears that she will such a boost for some kind of single and autonomous proposal disconnected from a barrel of concessions that the 2 other political managers thought by democrats and republicans, alexander, it's been mentioned here. um, a new land lease. i don't even think the majority of congressmen even know what that term historical term is. how would that work?

i mean, ukraine is, could it paid the united states back after all of this? i mean that they either they, they don't know anything about history or they're just finding a new way to live the people. alexander, it was kind of that that's for example, president former president trump this weekend just call or to kind of alone lowering least this is simply just does not exist in breakfast, for example, even in the union, we have exactly the same aspect. we keep funding, we are going to find you pray, and you're going to be lonely. start to pay back after 10 years within 10 years. so i did, but no one knows. and everyone at the same time knows how will you brain going is going to pay for? well, i think there, there's a, there's a way that no one's thought about as they should tax ukraine's oligarchy. because they are the ones that are making so much money off of this work. i mean, the, they should sign a personal, you know, loan, you know, that you're, they're going to pay it back. of course, it's nonsense, that's not going to happen here. we're rapidly running out of time. stephen i, i think this is a, we're the kind of

a turning point here. i think there's so much panic and desperation in the air that we've discussed on this program. um, where's that, what's the next step? where are we going? the one thing that the west is the only advantage again being the desperate because of both, instead of just to drink his victory speech that russia does, it does not want a fake piece which will last for a year and a half or 2 years. so that the, uh, you know, uh, military industrial complex uh, in the western countries uh, gets uh ahead of the game so that they can send enough weapons to the front line. so russia was a political solution, and i think the political solution with the parents leads into was and with the current a government in ukraine or even ukraine as such, is possible. that is why i expect the russia to secure as borders. i'm putting,

again said that there should be a buffered so that the cities in, in russia are safe and secure. yeah, i mean there's, you know, do we have a on this program? we have talked about this quite a bit. and my only concern is, is that i want an end to this complex immediately. ok. however, in russia does not want to be put into a position where ukraine re arms for 5 years, and they start all over again. that is the problem. that's the problem. keep go, go ahead. that is why wife's want is the career scenario, the more likely yates, north carolina, a north south korea situation in the middle of europe. and the roster doesn't want that. it doesn't want to have a constant threat on its borders, but it wants to have a, a sustainable security architecture in european content. and it is, this is exactly what it was proposing some 1015 years ago, and what it was continuously proposing during the main main sk agreements and even

until today. but they are not going to be a willing to go for another fake agreement with slowly by time for a, for a 2nd. let's say punch that russia i should, uh, should guess from the west. uh so that is why i think is more inflict as much damage as it can and it will probably uh, solve this uh in military. yeah. so what it must in worst security is guaranteed for all i don't know how we do that, but that's how it must and or, oh this will happen again gentlemen. that's all the time we have a one, a think, my guessing where they build. right. and, and elizabeth and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time. remember across on girls the

summer to attend. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to planes or do they have the state department, the c, i a weapons, bankers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your facts for you going has changed, and whatever you do, don't want my shell stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direction, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way you the eclipse to do the renew cpd. what's the story ok on that all the use of solutions stuff. ok. yeah. i see the shift going a little quick, which to she couldn't. miller well collected, ftp 2 photocopy slip on to describe the video and introduce i'd have to do is make

sure that you create excuse that are new and useless. historical stories with disposable cleaning. some of the doors not say that the once it's done, it's conflicting the thoughts about bushing and goes to school centuries ago. your forebears name this country ukraine or frontier because your steps blink, europe, and asia, the ukrainians that become frontiersman of another story. the people who will be able to sing the songs which i like most of them is always, you know, gonna jump to the most goals and would have been that much a lot of the heavily negligence. cool. man, joe probably. then you post bouquets gift to 2nd the, we'll have to upgrade the stuff under

the moscow warns and paris that a troops will be legitimate targets and ukraine as rushes born intelligence chief says, 2000 front soldiers are gearing up to deploy their parents reported by joins warsaw and calling to limit imports of ukraine in granite, escalating protests by farmers across the u. of the international olympic committee claims to oppose the plug association of sport well warning. the output might put themselves at risk by competing at the upcoming world friendship games in russia. plus we hear from a defendant of a slave from nigeria who says london still owes reparations to the victims of the