the, the 5 people are reportedly killed during an a delivery and got to stop. it's highly secure with the officials, heads of egypt, arkansas for negotiations to come off all the stadiums and their supporters world wide come and right. so cold blooded the day of the deadly 1917 protests against these really an extension of the palestinian potent month process. these 5 and then so the idea of killing of civilians found industry here in order to send a clear message to is what and they united states of america that it is time to send you an update as the and they actually take us to on to

profit of a game. what is happening if they say to call you now, the rest of the world will fall over. bunches of people moved by the tragedy of the march of 20 seconds. tara attacked in must go together outside the constant holes on those who lost the lights. on passages have also paid tribute. we will do everything that russian needs. we stand in solidarity with it. we will spare no efforts. russia is fraternal and friendly country to a rocks. we are in full solidarity with the russian people and the russian government. and us statements are way out of line. the saw, new delay has responded to the whites houses and boxes and the rest of the positions they got a month before. india's general visit headlined to the story of escripts on monday as piece of scots and we parked with another look in just so that i was the

in the closing. welcome to was the part from a special military operation to a state of war. the crumbling definition of facilities on the russian ukrainian border shifted starkly this past week. following a glory attack on concert goers outside moscow is this which in the rest of rick likely to be followed by change in military tactics. while to discuss that, i'm now enjoying by the mitre trend and research professor of the higher school of economics in moscow and

a member of russia's foreign and defense policy council. mister training, it's always an exclusive pleasure, intellectual pleasure to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you for having that sign up. now sit out this last 2 years. you've written a lot about sierra b use and regulatory function of fear in international relations, for example, how it may encourage diligence or risk calculation and healthy self restrain. but here we are faced with a different kind of fear. 3rd, to be precise, but it's also at some level of russia now it aims at certain behavioral uh, outcome. and i want to start by asking you, what do you think are the motives behind this attack? well, i think we are the process of understanding of there's a dog they think that the a lot of uh, of evidence sofa suggests that the fact was a, uh,

the rekeying. uh, that's a psychological havoc in russia essentially sending the message to the russian people that the best appointment may have won the election. and yeah, he can not fully guarantee security to russian citizens even in the capital of the country. i think that is one of the most important motives, whoever, once they find that, like i think that was important. another thing is that the attack was perpetrated by the people coming from trump to jacob stand. and those who are planned that probably most probably wanted to um, what are some relations interested relations with the russian your what, remember

a few months back up there was an attempt to stoke the extensions in douglas stock. oh, by the arrival of uh, the number of uh, uh, george people uh, from uh, from uh israel and uh, and that was uh, clearly an attempt to destabilize the northern caucasus as in yourself. no. and as, as you have just expressed, the rush is no stranger to either terrorist attacks or malevolent efforts to see, to saw the dis court within the russia. having said that, i do want to ask you about the conduct on the initial reaction to this attack. because, you know, there are certain things that are truly chilling here and on just the number of, of victims. we have a handful of heavily armed man walking into

a park concert hall team dar arsenals without chanting, any ideological or religious logan's getting into the car. and driving off along one of the busiest roads in the capital, i wonder if that in and of itself is meant or was meant to convey something. and if so, wanted to home? well, again, i think we're in the, in the process of understanding what actually happened, why it happened, who was responsible, who was beside the, the, the attack. i think we, we know a lot right now. but the, the investigation continues. i just think that what the surprise me personally is the, uh, is, is the, the immediate reaction or from the united states to the shut up this was the attack attributed to the,

the expedient most of the islamic stuff. i don't like find the name on you are still not. i'm the 1st one except you lose your point of finger. and i pretty nice to me directly as, as many as, as, cuz as many people did that i think that there's more evidence that this was something um the, this, this was a potentially a false slide operation. i definitely want to get to this question of attributes and certainty on both sides because i think it is put down usual to having a task. when you know the time when it's committed, both sides are pretty confident about uh, who has not committed it or who may have been behind. but before we go there, it's a very sensitive question and i'm myself,

a russian citizen. i live not far away from that small, but i think it's an important question to ask to understand the dynamics because in the united states, as far as understand has warrant that citizens not to go to any mass events and specifically avoid large gatherings and including concerts on the eve of this attack there, there was also some reports about them handing over some uh, vague information about something possibly happening. i mean, you have, the russian authorities did not change any levels of security and the capital in this event was allowed to take place. perhaps because the russians that, sorry, the russian authorities wanted to convey this message of peace and stability within the country. and my question to you is pretty blonde. do you think the, the russian security services in law enforcement services also have to, you know, consider the way they operate, given that the countries and did it in a state of war. and yet we are still at least in big cities,

are trying to lead as normal of a life as possible. well, i think that the 1st of all, we don't know, ever speaking about the uh, about the warning that united states uh, made. uh, we don't, i mean, which i'm guess, but uh, i don't think it was much but the, the shortly i don't know what the actual reaction of the russian authorities was to that to that message. i know that publicly russian officials referred to those of us to invest the statements as a, as a way to uh, let's say, in the back of the level, like on the invite, a bunch of pre election of russia. i think that their way, uh, this one is good deducted uh is uh, meant to cause a,

uh, 2 messages up to say die to a very contradictory messages. one is the, this is an extra special matter. on the other hand, there's a very conscious attempt to allow people to continue living in normal lives. it may be, i would explain that by one of the oh sorry, it is uh uh, conclusions uh the, the public. how do the spell the last uh, many decades, if you started, would not want to switch to what time and would not switch there. what time do you usually that? where does this, the switch could uh, reduce more problems. so that's the reality of peace may be false reality about the, you know, moscow is, uh or, or, or maybe i'll do a august, it is accept for bill garage maybe quarter sca baby a, a clearly of the, the,

the city is like the done. you have good the other cities in the, in the new territories of russia, they do not experience war 1st, temp dicks, the to saw things on television very, very the, the know that there's something going on. but uh, they are low, their own lives, the not, the not feel the, he told the war from a appears thought a point of view. it's understandable that death or just would wanna preserve, you know, some semblance of peace. but if you do not a sort of how your public a custom to the realities of the day, your enemies will do it for you. i mean, if people continue living as this, they leave without the war, then don't you think that could be a certain point more dangerous because the shock of a terrorist attack like we've just experienced, would be in this case. uh,

truly shocking. i mean, like, it's better to, i mean, the gap with reality here in this case would be larger. my opinion is that the, we are at war. we have been at war for the past 2 plus years. and we need to mobilize it different ways. i'm not talking about the waves of the mobilization over service. this is up to the commander in chief up to the general staff to decide. but society of society needs to understand that the peacetime is over for a period of time. maybe for a lot there at the time, and then we need to adapt more quickly and more effectively to the reality is of the day. and um, unfortunately this, this effort is not the, it is not really much in evidence that you see more people, the official side trying to create what you call the semblance of the thing. stay

normal is there's, there's just something going on at television screens and the deals collecting, uh, uh, funds that are helped uh, are soldiers on the front line, but otherwise the, so it's so normal, it's sold nice. this is one thing. another thing is, is you know, what kind of television content is appropriate during war time, because uh, you know, people work uh well, well, you know, we're, uh, we're have a good time in moscow. why loves thousands and thousands of their co citizens were fighting and many of them died. and that is the, you know, the, that is a problem that needs to be resolved. otherwise i think you, you're going to get that out yourself. uh, otherwise we may have a pretty serious problems later on. someone has to tell the people that the little guys of his time is over. we have this

a dire situation that will not go away by next is still by next christmas. so you know, either 1st year, but the future we all need to carry are part of the burden. so this, this mentality needs to stop and from all the way from top to bottom, from top to bottom, that needs to change. okay, well, what needs to change right now, mr. training is us taking a short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the

the water is part of the blog post that isn't the deepest of us and that in the word or is it something deeper, more complex might be present? let's stop without collision. is that spelled out of the as daily the quarter board and if it's the, did you get the schedule, you know, when go to the crest? i'm one of can you read the book? people just started. you said the deadline of to so i mean if it isn't you, when you might be able to move my car for you,

you can use it for you. share bumper to your phone to to confirm. sure. you guys bought the group using this book. the solution solution and the newest or exactly was taken to 7 simply in our mind that was about our new dig through amazon. i was part of the

leading the kids and we just found as though it's empty, just the frame the the, the welcome back to was a part with the metric training and research professor at the higher school of economics in oscar and the member of precious foreign and defense policy council. now, mr. training uh as we were talking before as we were discussing before, the breaks here and just come 1st thing you need to be managed not only outside but

also inside the country. otherwise your enemies may um taking initiative upon themselves. but uh, let's now talk about the international implications of what has happened in the article that he wrote immediately after the attack, you positive that it may lead to serious changes in the nations public security and foreign policy. i'm, i'm sure your role telling me that it's too early to speculate, but still, what are the possibilities here on the international or foreign policy front? this would be a very slow investigation. uh, no one is jumping to conclusions. uh before that, that investigation is over because everyone understands the mistakes involved and they've got coaches that will be made or will have to be translated into some real action. and i think we're closing in on the,

on the find an old result of the investigation with bird junior, if it goes and the russian security establishment. mr. board because of the a f s. b, the federal security service. and mr. popular sheriff of the, the secretary of in, of the russian federation, security kind of sold a bump. they both essentially point a fingers at the crane and, and the support because case also to the united states, the united kingdom and, uh, this link uh to your credit and then further on to the us and the u. k. is established, it's going to have a practical consequences for uh, for the war. i think that with regard to ukraine, we have also heard of that uh uh,

the leadership of the ukrainian of security services may in fact village it and that targets for a rush and strikes. we have a good in the days after the, the terrorist attack, the russian missiles targeted buildings belonging to the, to the ukrainian security your services. right now they have been just in the last couple of days, they have been very major dash against your plenty of your trade in energy and infrastructure. so the war has been around the, the intensity of the war. the russian side has been ramped up. now, as you yourself pointed out in that article on, if the ukranian trail is confirmed, it would necessarily mean that an attack of this kind will would not have been

possible without some approval of the head of state and present savanski in this case. and as you mentioned in your article, at this point, moscow is still abiding by its own sort of south take and restrained, of not targeting the ukranian president directly. but if the complicity of the ukrainian leadership is indeed confirmed, that's what not only make them legitimate targets, i suppose that would make them uh, necessary targets. i mean, russian security services, including the commander in chief, by law, obligated to take measures to defend the rest and national security. and what i wanna ask you about is, what's the at this point, the larger geo political meaning or symbolism of this self impulse constrains off not targeting zelinski. and he's close this circle personally. and what would it mean to a bad them this constraint versus worrying?

it had been evolving since the start of the special military operation. and you would recall the to the, the original terms of the pre g that was drafted russian ukrainian creative that was drafted by i didn't show but, but never, never signed up. i think that if the connection between the terrace of the train you should occur to services is actually established in the restaurant establishment, then not only the ukrainian leadership is seen as a cause of not under any circumstances, not a party to any future dogs in a future negotiations, but i think this will strengthen the view that uh, quite

a few people that have been expressing openly got to russia can not, not tolerate the invasion. the russia cannot afford living next to a terrorist state. so that state must go. this would be if that conclusion is rich. i'm told you about the conclusion that about the connection declared and connection. this is the, the logical uh, photo uh to the conclusion. if you're dealing with a bunch of turbo sound to capture the state them, the doctors, you must go, i'm not sure our audience understands the difference in military terms. what was the differentiation here? i mean, combining a terrorist state versus a conventional and the misstate. how would be tactics change in this case?

well, you know, of an award. you can, well, you can decide to, uh, to the point you can decide to uh, to come to terms with your phone. uh, you have exhausted your cell phone. it is, does it yourself, your, uh, your comfortable terms, you know, you may or may not agree on a treaty, but at least some sort of an honest look at career of since 1953. that has been an honest us out there. no peace treaty. but no more either uh, so far for, for some people in russia and many people outside of russia. oh, the korean scenario is, uh, is, is, is a, please. um, a potentially possible scenario. that's for some people. this is the most generic, you know, i think this,

the disconnection tourists would kill the scenario because you cannot, seriously, if you're serious about yourself, you know, serious about your, your obligations as leaders of the stage, etc. then your tune dot to, you cannot tolerate living next door to the real estate. you have to go smash, you'd have to snatch the machine and make sure that the future regime will be, will be decent. a has been an advocate advocate of introducing sierra, more squarely and directly into the us a russian or us western relationship and make it, it's aligned in both washington and london that they cannot way into a proxy war with russia via ukraine without no harm to themselves. and i think of this sort of argument to receive some rhetorical supports from the russian

leadership, but, but i didn't see it materialize into any straightforward action. and if that link with uh, britain and the united states is established either directly or, or let's say, through intelligence channels. what could possibly be the russian reaction? because he, i think your point is very well taken that, uh, you know, as russia is being self constrained in this war. the, the western definitions of what is allowed to keep moving and keep expanding. so how can the rush of possibly stop without the creeping process without uh, initiating a larger perhaps nuclear armed conflict in the age of nuclear, the trance. uh, here is the, the best uh, maybe only gonna give you that. uh uh the doors will not well not fail.

the alternative to replace the drivers. there is no clear war. i'm very tragically . so i'm not a field longer. i'm just someone who is the lighting of the importance of something that lives at the heart of the taurus, and that's fear. if you have no fear, if you lose fear the initial fearful they were. absolutely, i mean, even in basic psychologist here is a necessary reaction to it, so actually keeps us alive. this is a king brother ingredient to in survival. and if we want to survive as a human race, that we must remember to cover a bit of fear when we deal with the with was one another. i think that, um, that is the shortly you're for a if it's established up to the community and officials built out their training

and officials were behind them down. um you know, the headquarters of the ukrainian services of their train. yeah. and the top leadership and the need to become targets for that. it is also um, um a logical that to yeah, we only know about this promise not that i get the opinion process from we're only know about that from before i leave. i missed a food. never told us that. but uh, so low is uh, from a former prime minister advantage of israel was right when he was saying, but he would say that he understood correctly the should the, this promise should the should be lifted. but mr. training again, would that be enough to a forest striking? no, no, no fear and not only in the car. so if you're bringing literature but also,

you know, sobering up the western o eats will support that or what has been really, it's, i think there was a, an important statement from the risk and of the other for an intelligence service. it was just that the, you know, in front of the sides of the sound, the soldiers up to your crying, those soldiers will be wiped down. it will be a priority targets for russia. and i think that, uh, that is uh, that is a serious warning. and that what it needs to be and is it good to should not be ignored. now of the other studies, i think that the, the, i don't know whether the russia cruise missile, the boulders of space by chance because of some, this calculation, them the in mapping of the flight. or maybe it was intentional. i think it's more

likely that it was intentional. this is a message to uh, polish neighbors, that the, at some point point of the target should polish territory that will be engaged by, by russian missiles. we're talking about supply points. we're talking about communicate, communicate, ations. we're talking about logistical routes, leading to ukraine, the there levels of got a solution. we're talking about the need for restaurants, talking the need about the need for russia to ensure escalation, job, and so not to be always on the receiving end. because being always on the receiving end, but uh, i st. george safely take us to the absolutely terrify you book when uh you know, there will be a choice between other defeat.