on the south, whereas the 1500000 guys is our sheltering now. those displays earlier on to the spend 10 minutes on yahoo. repeat it again. no force in the world will stop us. let's take a listen. we will complete elimination of home offices battalions, including and rough or no force and the world will stop us the money for so strong to do this. but it will not help because this side of the author of what it has done will not do this again. no, will it exist many global powers with most of the options that have been running as well. again, say opperation in such a densely populated area, america, sad and cannot to prove it is really based on into a rough fall without a solid plan of evacuation. but israel, by the way, never publicly presented, then it's on yahoo. what do you said? the date is said without given movie channels. so we have to wait and see now

seems like a pivotal moment or, or reminder, if you're in the mood for a deeper dive into any of our stories. this, our, our website is a solid jumping off point news views. and plenty more besides, can be found at our team dot com to give it a look when you can define the the water is part of the blog

post that isn't the deepest view of us in that in the word part. is it something deeper, more complex might be present there? let's stop without pleases. let's talk about it. as the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter lavelle. sometimes words do matter. nato secretary general stilton burke says ukraine may have to compromise with russia what that compromise might be is left on an answer. nonetheless, it is an acknowledgment nato's proxy war on russia. it is ending in failure,

the cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pasco look, house in keel. so he's an associate professor at toyota university. in montreal, we have matthew arrow and he is a senior fellow at the american university of moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada. and here in moscow we have pierre emanuel toma, he is electra leon university. our gentleman comstock rolls in effect, that means you can jump any time you want and i always appreciated. pasco, let me go to you and k auto because you are staying up late. i usually say you got up early, you're staying up late to do this program. you know, it's spelt and burke is a very interesting creature to observe. he's obviously just a mouth piece for the alliance, probably on speed dial to washington. but he does come out with these things that do, we should pay attention to that there that ukraine is going to have to make some compromises

. this is a, is, this is a way, an offer ramp for nato, as it approaches it's 75th anniversary, with not much to be proud of us go as well. i would hope that natal fine and he understands that an offer on these needed now that it has seemed basically all of its equipment destroyed by russia in ukraine on the ukrainians. little by little losing the ability to fight the support because they're running out of man, right? with out external intervention in the form of boots on the ground, which actually differential the british are not working on. but without that, there is just no realistic scenario anymore. even to drag out the war, i mean, in europe the all the talk is that because as told me, but even that is a law, right. it's not a stone me. russia is now is now really india advantage and can push on. so it seems to me that realism seeps through and need to understand that and all from

these needed. and this is the 1st kind of signs may be that they are willing to consider it. well matthew would be the maybe the argument that we're hearing now is that and it's been for, i guess now for the last 6 months, more aid is necessary to give the ukrainians a better advantage at the negotiating table. but matthew, if you think about it, the more money is sent ukraine and material, the less territory they control is what you can get smaller and smaller with more and more money being side cafe. see this is their causality issue here. matthew, it's difficult to say what they can or cannot see. i have to admit when we're dealing with these types of technic crowds or so removed from a battlefield or any plane of reality and are so used to being conditioned by game theory, models and think tanks without any attachment to reality. so when they come up with an assessment it's oh, is a little strange. try to get into their shoes by curious. we but i think you're, you're correct. there has been embarrassing over 2 years,

lack of any type of progress and, and just the reverse has happened. the more money is pouring into the, the, the, the culture in the less results has tended to be the outcome and even the i m f. a said has had to make demonstrations that the data cannot be fudged them that much or, or any more, it's very difficult as much the guy mess normally. fudge of data and then demonstrated that unlike the forecast that russia would be destroyed by this time much earlier on, they were supposed to be economically destroyed. the i'm asking you for recent reports has had to admit that they are now the, the bypass of germany as far as becoming the, the world's 5th largest economy, the most powerful economy in all of europe. they've not, they've only benefited in many ways by virtue of what has been done, section wise and everything else in the war is just one aspect of the failure of planning bodies. technocrats. so yeah, it's a while. well, it's difficult. i do think that there is like the previous speaker said some bending to reality currently. well, parent manuel here in moscow. what, what,

what's, what's, what's really quite curious is that, you know, we have someone like cells and birds saying that ukraine may have to compromise. they all people like felton berg, the rest of them. they always forget the other party in the complex russia. maybe russia doesn't want to compromise. so they considered that theory manual. of course not. oh, they know they should concede over, but she's real narrow teeth. and the narrow t for, for starting to think about to the compromising is because they know they are going not lose more and more we've time. russia is getting smoke around and do they try to hide disrupted chic disaster. and this is the time where they from bill potent of you need to us to concede or to, to compromise, to, to stop for a russians to advance and to try to, to save of arrest over ukraine. but actually, are russia is not the same interest of russia wants to achieve,

is for object teeth, which is to update a new twenty's ation of ukraine. but also, but you, your queen regime is not the threat anymore to russia. so it's much mo, under of the more we wait, the move of the result of compromise. we'd be at the higher cost for you queen of the west. well, you know, the passcode one of the, the, the difficult things in, in trying to understand this complex, if you look at both sides, neither the 2 sides are speaking and very different languages and then have different ways of understanding it and what, how it came about what i'm getting on here is that the russians always talk about their security, the europeans, and the americans talk about their so called values. that's why we're not getting anywhere house go yeah, russian has made it pretty clear what these war is about for them on the fact that on social media ending programs like these,

these message has been clearly understood. it has been discussed for 2 years. the fact that that also remind wells that we know that this is about neutralizing ukraine as a threats and, and making sure that russia will be safe is a very different approach. and this must be heard. i mean, but public media in europe, in, in the us, this is a completely different thing. it's propaganda. the propaganda is on a different level and it is still on a different level but, but we now see that the people in power actually do understand that what, what they publicly say and what, how they actually interpret russia are not necessarily the same. so this is the best chance that we have that actually, you know, the people who are responsible for the diplomats and those of the military people will start talking things into the politicians in, in, in, in europe, telling them,

look at some point we need to actually discuss with the russians what they want because they are winning or difficult they want. oh, the winning ukraine is something, you know, this could get much worse. we have to buy really the costco, you know, right. in december of 2021 before the start of the conflict in the february after the russians told the world, tell about the whole world what they wanted. that's exactly what they want today. nothing has really changed. they want security, okay. they don't want, they want a neutral ukraine, and they don't want a nato moving eastward, noticed a distance still the same things. let me move over to uh, to matthew here. the uh, the undertaker of the west pony blinking. um we sent a 2 not uh, 2 new cycles ago was standing next to the training for ministers. i ukraine will be part of nature. we haven't gotten much progress here. have wait, matthew, you know? yeah. all, all you, all that needs to happen is russian needs to be defeated and then you praise is going to become part of nato. that's. that's easy because obviously the 2nd then

you create as part of nato. that's world war 3 because there's a lot of, obviously, a powerful interest itching to invoke the article 5 collective security packed. so that's not something that, that will happen directly unless you really do want it all out of thermo nuclear war, which i don't think that there is that in seen. so i don't think that there's a lot behind those words. yeah, the and matthew, you're, i'm a, i'm sorry, the rapids. you're absolutely right that the in lieu of saying something else, they don't have in lieu of something else or just say, and of course, you know that there's no time table. there no condition you just will be you, you will eventually will be. i mean if i with you crazy and so i said, i would say we need to negotiate the end of this thing here because you can't trust these western partners. i'm sorry, matthew, keep going. yeah, no, absolutely. but then you, you have like, uh, what's the name of alexandra of leo, the public, who is the, the, the land force commander saying that all citizens must be prepared to buy and thus implicitly die under throwing up people. paraplegics,

people who are mentally described a you got a lot of a lot of people just being thrown his ken fodder right now, and they're doubling down and ukraine on the fact that they're the gospel from 2 years ago, somehow still flexible. and it's certainly not the reality is completely completely showing a different picture and they're not able to conform to it. so i don't know with, with blinking why he chose to say that it's just that they're incapable of shifting away property from their narrative. that's right. there's only one gear, these people have only one gear up here and menu. well, what, what is interesting with, with the french proposal, i'm not really sure wouldn't be crowned really means a french soldiers nato soldiers. and is that a blog? is a bless on a i think in narrative mistake as well because or the 20. we have to understand the

context for europe and elections in europe. empowerment and are very well positioned pots you'd. i could look and potty is far here. read ahead of the box you of a menu item i cool. and the popular menu item i can choose fulfill, not chief to, to, to push the fact that to be on the side on the plane of freedom of demo crusty, against a view to russia. and to accuse the loop in part to you to be a promoter of the russian, the objectives, son. and to be a put you to agents resist. i'll tell you ridiculous and envy you come, pay your come notice of french paper doesn't suck this narrative very. they, they want to vote more, more for nation are from so reset, taught, narrative said, or under the same time or so. and when you get a mock hole, want you to make friends relieved or of you uh, entered by supporting your queen and gets rush out to,

to take advantage of in an opportunistic way of your situation. and do to be able to lead or in competition with germany because french was always in competition, germany to lead the european project as required. notice about nobody in you want this to be told anything and to be led by you are a money order my call on especially to put troops on the ground. it gives russia which one to go to, to with front our wall and continue. but many experts on many tell even know it's not possible. it's your be at the sauce don't. so it does been a mistake in terms of narrative and also jump words. all right, hold on to that thought the wrong of it. we have to go to a hard break gentlemen, and after that hard break, we're going to continue. continue our discussion on ukraine, stay with us, the, the,

the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to the prospect where all things are considered. i'm curious about

your mind you were discussing. you create the hey, let's go back to pasco and, and kill to i think one thing. and if we look over the last 2 years of a few things, i think, um, we can all agree on this, isn't it? leach warm up here. and menu, always telling us about how french people feel about it. this isn't a lead ward, they, they expected rush, it would collapse instantly. you know, the sanctions with the, with the rubel would become rubble and all of these type of thing. but the only thing they seem to have in common right now is that they don't know how to win because they've lost. so their alternative is just to keep it going. that's what they're doing, just keep it going. pasco, i mean, you're, you're set that there is no timeline, but there actually isn't, that's november of this year, because that's the big election in the united states. and it is to me relatively clear that full, that the democrats and to you as

a trying to do is to keep it going until beyond the election when either to abide any saving the saddle for another 4 years. and you can like, you know, kinetic paper out. um, whatever it is, or donald trump wins and you can pin it on him. so really like for the, for the americans at this point is to, to have it going for another house a year without the ukraine collapsing of 4 reputational purposes for the europeans . it's a completely different gains. europeans, as, as he said, they, they, they hung themselves in their own words. and that's why we see my call trying to one up the game and even maybe go further then what, what nature would be would be willing to, to do one on their own. but this is such a risky gamble. they know that would be because it could buy this in world war 3, but also it, it, it, it backfires you know, use as x rays, ability in, in europe, stuff to europe and at the bottom and go from a bad place to the worst play it out of their own miscalculations and so well put, matthew, you know, the, the, the, the adage in politics never let

a crisis go to waste. i think that's exactly what your opinion leaders are thinking that would be steep brussels. is that this is a catastrophe. so let's take advantage of it. let's, let's pursue greater federal ization. let's allow brussels to start directly taxing the indian uh, individual citizens of the, you not nation states, but brussels gets the do it. i mean, this is one of the reasons why i think there's a big competition in europe who's going to be harder on the russians. because this is an opportunity to transform europe in a way that voters will not have no say in whatsoever matthew as well the, the, the destruction of any type of legitimate democracy in europe has been a long time coming in has been part partly the manifestation of the sorts of ideas we had originally seen already century going merge out of the mind of people like who the whole the color d with his a pen, europa of fascist movement. that had a variety of, of hyper fascist, like delma shocked. many circles around. but benito, mussolini, many,

many of the most hard core you genesis with global as we're all circulating around could involve declared these idea of creating a united states of europe. which ended up even adopting the outline that, that he himself, designed with beethoven's 9th symphony. big hoping would not be happy with that as the anthem. and ever since world war 2 ended, there has been an immediate effort to try to re purpose and, and put back into play. the churchill was a big follower of, you know, we'll amerys kid julian and many others were all a advocates, including the head of the british, a fascist party himself. oswald moseley, with the big promoter of this thing. and this became increasingly a federal realized structure that would have more power as far as an unelected bureaucracy above those elected components of the nation into lisbon treaty was just a more recent example of this thing. advancing forward in opposition to the actual democratic will of the people of europe who didn't want this, they would be voted, knowing it didn't, it would still force down the throats of the irish and others. and so i think

you're right in this crisis is being used to advance a more direct tutorial uh up or down shift of of this whole new world order again. but yeah and, and if you don't fall in line like a hungry or slovakia you will pay the consequences as you are ursula bundle. and so we have the tools. okay. very famously. um yeah, it's purely menu. well, i mean what, what is the, what does your get out of, of this supporting this war? i mean, i, i see no upside whatsoever. you see you're a p and a leads and your band doing their own self interest, their sovereign interest, the opportunity for us to, to see some of the fun of you all for very the you are p and i, you know, want you to a, always to push for a federal into rich in europe before the crisis in ukraine. the europe and

projects was already in a very bad situation because babies lester's, on this report from the people are economically he doesn't work anymore. but your role is exhaust or, and, or your pin union as no voice in the world, or will be claim to be jump with the car, actually, or between the us, russia, china, in your, they all week or on the week or, and this crises in ukraine they've been monday to date it. they'd be no, actually be swan westphal bulk to buy your by. you need to announce your month of the fuse or for washing to to negotiate. we brush a new or your pan 6 year, which a tricky regiment. as the e u. member states, they photo the yours. ok 20 the the government's wide fable between you and the integration like your friend sure of adjustments they use it. you know, fortunately, as opposed to this way to save the european project to,

to find a new enemy, russia to push for more european integration. orval people are less, less in favor of you. so actually, this, you, this is a sign of vast saudi zation over you to nato on the same time. it's because in term that e, v, r a week or on more almo divided between member states, that's a reality tv. it tried to hide, you rush, i'd be kids escaped, go to of you up and you and your problems. yes. and, and repair and then you. well, it also gives them reasons to put a push censorship in d platforming people. all the, all the name of national security, of course here, you know, pets go one of the things that it, we have the 75th anniversary, the official 70 if, if anniversary party of nato in washington, in july. and then, you know, the nato is good at p r. i mean, that's mostly what they do, but they're facing us catastrophic strategic defeat. and that's something they can

not contemplate, pasco, i warn you though, you know, a, in the states award that made or even when, which is different from the defeats. i would really not want to see an actual real fight between nato troops and russia, which will be weight uglier than what be seen so far. so guess, nato will, it gets, moves, and nato and the nato countries will try to improve their entire industrial chain. because they didn't know the news strategically, the last the, the, the production game of, of, of a major more in, in europe. and they will try to improve that over time. but they didn't, they just didn't, we knew crane. i would not want to see them challenge to the point where they would actually go into the field and shifting to a different gear, which would be world war 3. well, i mean, i guess there's one or 2 ways even though there's a path a is, is, is pascal side, you know, okay, lick, you won't,

you didn't when you crane. ok. but that's not the lesson learned. tier one downside of this is that now nato and certainly has an enemy, remember all before this, you know, rushed as an adversary. we haven't, if we're not threatening russia, this is not about nato expansion. the other nonsense, but now they can say, well, we got a real adversary here, which really interesting. matthew is the only 37 percent of the members of nato actually spend 2 percent of their gdp on defense. so, i mean, if russia is such a huge threat to the european con in why on are the all the countries are spending 110 percent? go ahead, matthew. know that that's a fund data point that i was just reading how the us investors in a to his chest izing the, the other non paying members as, as you're correct. if this really was a threats. if there were this was a serious, a high priority. you would imagine that a much more than the 2 percent minimum would be spent. we see rushes spend well

over 6 percent of their gdp on dealing with what they value was a very high priority to deal denazi's me encroach nieto in circuit of their country . that's what you do when you're, when you have a real threat, you spend the appropriate money. and as it turns out, they've wise, we'd be able to solidify a vast amount of positive relationships with your res road that is provided to a greater pope for real integration of your asia and stabilization, based on progress of real durable friendships and trust that anything we've ever seen before, so that's good, but no, you're right. there's just no actual follow through. so you can see that people are just being strong arms by a sort of force that, that must not be spoken about in polite society in public, to say certain words. but there's not an ability to actually act and walk the walk, which is just part of this whole, you know, detached technocratic scripts which, which wants to impose their opinions reality onto the world without actually recognizing that the world isn't that way. yeah,

and they're just to use the plain god for too long. that's why we have this program . we, you know, we're not, we're not polite society. okay. so right here, bench, well, one of the, the, the greatest um hopes of the european union who is 2 things. peace and prosperity. they're neither are in place right now. we're meeting europe. it is a single, the biggest loser outside of ukraine, of course, in this entire ridiculous scan. but go ahead. so yes, actually the program is your pen union is not a, or to them was project from a washington. actually your, the open project. is it the sup uh, strategy of for washington to control the re, milan to, to, to, against russia? because the washington, that's the strategy of controlling your racial. we for your banner, we blonde on the one side on into pacific,

on the other side. and europe and union with these crises more on move us. how used by a natal need less security instead of for any sharp project of a group. and project was peace on their way used as a weapon against russia. and or this is why the, the, the project with a good, we need more and more in a crisis on there for less on this reports of, of people are on the 20, the european union or so is not defending europe a set you up and civilization or your pin balance of power, which will include of course, of rush because of rush i sparked of european civilization and is unable in you, raise your to, to, to europe and are actually european union became little more a tour to defend you. a trunk space under i would say the western dominance of awards, which is not working anymore in front of imagine some nurtured port on words. so we are losing, in terms of a systemic or

a system of international relations. those of us why we are still afraid of each company? well, i think we could just say, thankfully, it's the end of the rules base order. all right, gentlemen, that's all the time we have a one, it's like my guessing here. so montreal's, and here in moscow, and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our d. c. and next time, remember, cross doubles the the of the day itself to gaining independence and from the form of the ivory coast

remained under the strong influence of its foam and metropolitan pro french president, phoenix, who say, borne, you ruled the country for 33 years, ensuring the interest to from the dead, the government dean isn't in the trunk. then there's also including his foster larry share goods was dumb, so strong and the more appropriate after the death of, of a one year, a new lead to long come back. the ball came to power reset and i'm ready to double open for example. yeah, curious to know if we're picking up from the big or was it isn't good enough for tiffany to one is the one that passes into the bronze immediately dean. good luck. boeing. enemy, a deep political crisis ensued. the walk a, the country 2nd largest city, turned into a theater of war. from 130 to the

other 2 voters saw no more dish. how did the dramatic events unfold? and how is block a recovering from? he is a bloody conflict. watch on see the ball, michelle revelations from rushes investigative couldn't mitsy to claim a hunter of bygone linked ukrainian company sponsored terror attacks in russia. under comes a criminal probe against us, the nato officials in relation to the possible funneling of funds to extreme this thing. firms been ukraine, is launched by russia state to do that. the investigation will apparently focus on the long list of terrorist attacks target itemize, the since the iceberg,