the, the hello and welcome to cross topic where all things are considered. i'm peter live out. we're told us president joe buying does not want the stand off with russia over ukraine to trigger a global war. the evidence suggests just the opposite. nature now uses ukraine to attack russia, have no doubts. russia will respond. a cross talking nato. i'm joined by my guess, dimitri lot scholars in athens. he's a lawyer and a freelance journalist involve we have carlos out. he is a political analyst historian and host of the silk and steel pod cast and invasion . we cross blue she, when she is a international affairs commentator as well as

a cvt and radio reporter, right cross top roles and the fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate carl, let me go to you 1st and bali of far from the fray and ukraine here. i mean, it's really quite remarkable. we have this new phrase now adapt in a just, that's what nato is doing right now. when it comes to arming ukraine, except for now, oh, you can use nato equipment tissue just a little bit into russians territory, which of course we've been doing for over a year now. but now that's part of their adapt and adjust the mean. this is the path to war, and it's a nato war against russia. they can no longer say they're not part of the conflict . they've been part of the conflict from day one. is there a matter of fact, they started this conflict? go ahead carl. it was this, the nato is losing its proxy war against russia. right now, is our scrambling tried to do whatever they can try to salvage the situation. um, so is there a certain did not have to be more upfront in about the involvement,

but, you know, politicians in washington have been very explicit. we say this is a war. this is a proxy words are fighting russians using the ukranian. they're fighting russia to the last ukrainians. this has always been their policy. while it's very interesting, let's go to our guest in beijing. we keep hearing about ukraine has the right to self defense. well, it's a solver and country. of course, it has the right to self defense, but nato's approach to this conflict, this proxy war is carlos pointed out. here. russia is not allowed to have the idea of self defense. so you have american weapons in ukraine going into russia. it's killing civilians because it's a primarily what they've done so far. and russia is war not to react with. this is not how it works. russia will obviously react, and it is all russia's already warned the west that it will go ahead in patient

you're right here, actually as press them to, teen said, brisk monthly is the nato and the also or us, let's nato and eases. it's a restriction for ukraine to use lessons weapons there. there won't be serious consequence on that. and actually, um we know that so um uh, just uh, as you mentioned that the beginning that lincoln said that the us position was the hallmark of the by them. and this patients stands on ukraine to adapt and adjust as needed. so we can see that the u. s. policy is foreign policy has been changing time over time, and it's always contradicts itself. and it's also more interesting is that person by then i said he will not attend. the upcoming summit is switzerland, despite the lensky is urging by them to go, but instead of the biden is sending his vice president her us to be the or so,

i think this is some kind of ironic to see that the us approves you, chris, but you creams you solve on the west and supplied weapons. russia, which was indeed to escalate the conflict in the region. and so, so i'm highly doubtful about the upcoming re, uh, results of the peaceful. yeah, i want to talk about that in the 2nd part of the program. dimitry, i mean, again, you know, i adapt in a chest. i mean, this is a farce. i mean, the goal is always been nothing to do with ukraine. it's about to inflict a street shrink to feed on russia. this has been the policy from the get go now saying, allowing the ukrainians to use these weapons to shoot missiles and drones into russia. it's some ne toe forces that are the command and control of those missiles

and drones. these are americans and europeans making the targeting ordinance and everything else related to firing these arms. i mean, this is absolutely a farce. and of course zalinski whose name is already been mentioned here. he wants this, he wants nato, to go to war, to over it for his country. and this is something that the united states and nato seemed to be quite willing to go and proceed. go ahead, dimitri, as well, the targeting, which is clearly coming from american military personnel because ukraine doesn't have the capacity to do that. the manufacturer of the weapons and switches clearly coming from the united states and united states doesn't even deny that is only part of the story. in addition, you have us military personnel. they may not be formally designated as active members of the military, although some of them are, if they've been trained by the us military and other western powers, fighting alongside the opinions on the front line. you have the training. again,

this is not being denied tens of thousands of ukrainian soldiers trained to native standards, whatever that means by the admission of western governments. you have that those but a, so an economic work that was being wasted on we're sure. again, the western powers were not denied this. they were openly bragging about the economic warfare the wage. and there's been a disaster in every conceivable respect. this has been a war binding to against russia, and that has been cleared from the outset. and this whole non sense that uh, this is simply a ukrainian war with the support of nato. it's something that we ought to have seen 3 months ago. this phrase, by the way, adapt and the just, it's a relative phrase. it begs the question of, what are they adapting and adjusting to yep. what they ducting and adjusting to is a crushing loss on the printing battlefield. so they're responding bite to this crushing loss which they've now realized they cannot avoid by taking the fight.

we're trying to, in deep into the territory of russia with the, for rent this consequences that potentially entails. so people need to wake up and listen to the french anthropologist emmanuel todd who offered a book recently which said, which was titled, world war 3 has begun. it has folks, yes i, i better program on that dimitry. we are in the, in world war 3 right now. and we, can you actually talk maybe another program about how the different blocks are lining up. i agree with that completely. you know, carl, of the, there's this whole a adapt in a just, i mean, is giving the, the green light then this is all the public relations been here for ukraine to do that. of course. so it's nato. that's going to be doing that in ukraine and outside of ukraine, quite possibly. but that doesn't change the conditions of the battlefield in ukraine. you can take out a refinery in russia, but it's not going to change the course of the conflict and ukraine. again, this has nothing to do with ukraine. what it has to do is, is to push russia into

a much more aggressive posture. that's what they want. and they'll site see that guy started it. that's exactly what they're trying to do, carl. and that's exactly what they're trying to do, the, whatever they do, you know, strike is deeper into rush, or that's not going to have any material of effect on the outcome of the work in ukraine. because right now, russia is having the upper hand on the battlefields, no matter what, whatever these i just adjustment nato is making, is not making a difference. all it does is to makes the russian public to rally more solidly behind, present food and in its special uh, military operation ukraine. so i, i don't, right, it's, it's really, this is really a lot very desperate. last ditch effort or by the nato alliance to salvage. it's, uh it's, it's, it's, it's a face saving operation now. well, i mean, carl,

i mean i, i use the metaphor, a face saving. but essentially what they're going to get is a go on their face, which really bothers me here. let's go back to our guest in beijing because the more nato loses in the more at deploys and losing strategy. the more aggressive the nato alliance is going to be come, because they do, they do not want to lose face. they are the ones that are saying, if we lose in ukraine, russian tanks, we're all in to paris or to the, to the english channel, which is absolutely absurd. even american and british intelligence have agreed with that. but that's not the public relations when the problem here is that we're having to contend with a public relations campaign from the west and not about realities on the ground. go ahead and vision of your rights either. actually, if you look at the utah about over 99 percent of those supplies, whether it be military supply, initial supply or command,

many terry and 8 to ukraine, came from nato and to us. so if they're not hearing those weapons to ukraine, this conflict could have, i mean, see a result of at least have a back to the negotiation table earlier than what we're seeing today. and you're right, we are seeing that are the mainstream media in the glass to have being not very so i'll say balanced when it comes to as reports on the rush or you create conflict. and i just, i think that's why it's important for us to have this conversation now and to talk about like we, we don't, we, we don't, we no longer need, you know, like the ease restrictions on the west to make that post to you print and what's more interesting is that if you have um, if you could recall that for many times we hear us officials are saying and

washington well finds onto the last of the ukrainian it's right. so that's great. yeah, that's very around it because as they are now fighting until the last of america or the last off the you for appeals, they are fighting and to the last of the well entry and put and plus, you know, they're making a lot of money in the process, okay, that the profit motive is in play here. you know, dmitri, they keep saying they want to, you know, buy, adapting, and adjusting to improve ukraine's position at the negotiating table. well, number one, there is no negotiating table, no one is invited, rush into it, and the longer they do this, the smaller ukraine get. so what is improving their position? go ahead, dimitri, as well, the so called any any so called peace conference that doesn't include your adversary is not a conference, a piece of the conference of war. what they're trying to do, obviously, for those of us who are saying and objective is marshall more support to put pressure on russia to capitulate. and the terms that zalinski has articulated from

the outset are precisely that there are a complete and utter capitulation which takes no account of legitimate grievances of russia. it takes no account of the crew in 2014. it takes no account of the human rights abuses of the russian speakers in the dawn bass. it takes no account of the assurances that were given a barber shop that nato would not expand one inch eastward. it gives no account to russia's legitimate concerns about nato nuclear tipped missiles, just a few 100 miles from moscow on ukrainian territory. this is a demand for capitulation demand and capitulation today. and that's why so many major countries are not going to participate here. we're just going to jump in here, we're going to go to a hard break, and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on nato state with our to the

measuring. they just didn't get us to bring it. the issue will probably be doing it by giving the condition initially the final appreciate the goals and because of the issues typically cause to get to the city because of the consortia, the cases i chose coastal academy, but it just doesn't mean just just the most from the folks from the new level you want that to me. yes, that's the most important thing to the son of the west gutierrez, to the point of this sort of what you're selling you successful was to build some of the treasure of single additional for can eat on up. i'm forward to for slow motion, which might give him the

welcome back across stock where all things are considered. i'm curious about your mind. you were discussing nato, the okay, let's go back to carl and folly. you know, we've already mentioned this ridiculous peace conference, so called peace conference that will be held this month from the 15 to the 18th in switzerland. it's what the oddity of it all is, is that we have a, a piece proposal from the chinese. we have one from africa. i think the, even the pope, even the prophecy weighed in there's, there's

a lot of peace plans out there. if you look at the, the, the demands that the russia sent out in december of 2021 to nato, into the united states about, um, securing a new security architecture in europe. those that is actually part of the process. but they're all ignored. that's a long introduction, carl, the saying, the west has no idea about how to bring peace. all they do is know how to keep the war going on. that's. that's obviously true from their policies over 2 years. go ahead. that has been in the west has so much hubris that you did. it denies the rush that you've been have legitimate, security, interest, president put, and it has made it very clear call back in 2000 no 7 unix security conference or the word the west that they could no longer make a mockery of russian security interest and re neck on their promises for ever, and now we have witnessed what happened. well, but what, what we're witnessing right now is the, the nato establishment itself is inc,

still in denial, in our total failure to degrade russia's capability on the, on the battlefield. ringback the ukrainian manpower is being depleted. russia has the issue, russia has the upper hand, and this is why they have to act. they have to, there's a natal forces have to be more upfront about 30 involvement because then ukrainians are not holding up. ready uh, holding up their, their line against russian offensive right now. well, you know, it is, um, when and in beijing the, the, the chinese proposal is probably the most balanced of them all. okay. it, it, it, it talks about in terms of how to get to an end game. every country should have secure borders there, so sovereignty should be respected. those are the details, but that's a good way to start. that's how you start the negotiation process. and what we have

with this is a landscape piece plan, so called, which was probably drafted in london or in a, in washington d. c is basically say russia, you must admit defeat. ok. you, you should a surrender to, to, to the 1st you create in tank. you see, i mean, that's not how it works. it's, this is like, there's no imagination and when it comes to diplomacy in the west anymore, of your rights, peter actually, you know, at the past us or a lack of a summit in singapore. so let's be, he was so choosing, trying out for now, taking his sides actually turn up. there is no such a thing as trying to is pressuring other nations now to attend the p summit in special lands and nor it is helping russia to disrupt the summit. in fact, as your motion to turn his position on the rush or you can come to the test being

very consistent and it does not target any specific party and certainly does know the post assignments. in fact, as the motions, china, us position on those, i would say a counselor to remains out. there are 3 important elements in china's perspective that a successful piece um, it should have the 1st as that recommendation of, of, from both russia and ukraine. the 2nd is that equal participation of both parties. and the last is that a fair discussion all possible peaceful tense. however, if we look at the situation now, obviously the upcoming summit in space of land has not met these 3 important criterias on 1st. the summit was not recognized by russia the 2nd on this time it did not invite russia. and 3rd, one of the most important players in this conflict was not invited to the table.

how can we guarantee the are going to be an open dialogue to ensure a possible peaceful, you know, of them coming all top this on that? so i think that's those 6, the most important reason why china is now participating because trying to believe stats of a peaceful conference, i mean the carmen's, the upcoming peace conference, individual loans kind of sharply plague a substance, a role to resolve the issue. me over, i think it's important to point out that so not participating into the assignment does not mean china does not support peace and for certain nations for participate into the summit. does not mean they are genuinely supporting peace. because, i mean, china just does not want to see that the upcoming summit to become a platform, to support you know, come from taishan, among cans or, you know, all, all it's going to be is a p r stand for nato, that, that's it. and,

and their academy, and they're going to have their, i list her out as a lensky who's legitimacy is quite dubious at this point in time violating the, the constitution of ukraine. you know, dimitri, what i worry about. and i've worried about since the 1st day of this conflict and i, i, i know i cited on this program eventually we will get to an article 5 crisis. i believe that now more than ever your thoughts. yes, i think we are typically heading that direction because russia will be left. there's been no, no alternative that's already so there that it's going to have to strike military assets in western in, in central or western europe. i think that's quite clear. for example. ready there's a large staging area in poland from which a number of these weapons, a lot of training and a lot of intelligence is gathered. this is under international law. clearly a legitimate target in russia has refrained from striking it for months. but it's

very clear that it will have no alternative and they keep attacking military targets, deeper and deeper interaction to create. the key question, of course, is going to be, as russia has said, explicitly, how will the united states respond when russia inevitably attacks? one of these european, legitimate military targets, if the people of the united states have their way, the united states will stay out of it. but the problem, but the problem here and those of us who live, you know, have a front row view of what was on united states as i do because i spent a lot of my time in canada is that the united states political lead doesn't care what the people want, it couldn't care less about the interest of americans as the americans had their way. uh, there would be a lot less military spending, and these wars of aggression would never have happened. so this is the real danger is that the us politically will respond to the article 5 call from europe that will inevitably come despite the demands of the populace to refrain from world war 3 in its hottest phase. we're already in a low intensity world where 3 is we talked about peter,

but we're heading to the heart is night. i suspect we're going to end up in a full blown conflagration and i hope very much that i'm wrong. well, i hope you're wrong, and i hope i'm wrong. but it, carl, there's a certain logic of this. one of the, the biggest problems that we've faced in this conflict is the idea of deterrence has been so degraded by the west. see if, if you want to have the idea of a mutual assured destruction deterrence, both parties have to believe in that theory. that's how we got through the cold war . but we have one party now that is throwing that to the side, rushes saying we will have to deter this type of a salt on us. but the west doesn't speaking that it am anymore. and that's why everything is becoming extremely unstable. because if you have long range missiles or f sixteens, okay? and, and they leave a, a, a base in poland and they're on a mission. russia is not going to know if they have nuclear taped missile or not.

you don't take those kinds of chances. what you do is say, if we say a plane like that, it's going to be destroyed and they're going to say it upfront. and then you know what they're going to say carl. the russians are bluffing. russians don't bluff, they act carl. so western politicians are playing a very dangerous game of chickens right now, and i very much hope dimitry is wrong, even though i very much respect his analysis. you know, during the cold war nixon have pioneered the so called madness theory, where east to west acts likes a complete cycle. the other side will back down this. this was work we, sylvia union by today's russia, is quite different. political entity fung soviet union of yesteryear, mr. putting has shown that he will not risk. he will not spend dollar from the rightful nato. and so we're going to see we're going to see user

a. nato will be called always on bluff or will have room were stories for the sake of everyone. here i hope demetrius wrong. there the hope of that those, the natal bloss will because they will back down and i think alternately, people work in the military industrial complex in uh, in the washington base. their altima game is to lining their own pocket. so well, i mean, what i think carl, you're on to something with what they, what like, life is threats. they need a threat, inflation, i think. but if you go to the wall, then you lose your business model. okay, i mean that, that's kind of, you know, that's kind of the logic of it all here. when in, in, in beijing, i suppose china is watching all of this very, very closely. because the, the, what the americans would like is a nato in, in asia, in the pacific. and we know what targets they have. it is taiwan here. so i hope

that the, the folks in beijing are learning from the dirty tricks from the west. you know, you're right with, you know, many times people will compare like the case happened, the crane with taiwan. but the thing is taiwan is totally different because it's now the country is not like ukraine type was part of china. and so that's been great by most of the countries in the world, and also by the us. us of greece was the one turn to principal, but the, but without i, i agree with you dear, but they don't act that way. they don't act is a big part of the same kind of just typical us foreign policy is there's one thing, but as another southern china is fully throughout that and trying to well, i mean the remaining is consistent foreign policy on ty one. and so i think the world agree with even the un, like in the past, the world health or event, the un recognize china is the only legal country in the u. n. so i

think that the, the global and community support stats. yeah. but, you know, unfortunately we've seen the united states and its relationship with china throwaway, just about every important bilateral agreement going from the, the point of breaking diplomatic relations. and so we see a templates in europe, and we see a template in asia. and what it's called is the rules based order. and when you hear the rules space order, you should be afraid as all the time we have. i want to take my guess in athens, bali and of course in beijing. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are the see you next time. and remember, cross stop the plus the see the solver side of the somebody.

how can it be that um the ship to the middle east from a country whose top officials constantly complain about shortages of munitions and military equipments. this through a low paying the boy a bit of boss low cream and they'll be able to assist them with below grade level nominal or the other slash the. i'm about the easiest and we also want to know we have more of an easy, some better novel bubble. a full well nice day to kind of get the stuff going on now. well, why are weapons from ukraine spreading over the world to, to this country and to a major arms hub, will continue to bolster ukraine's and forces by rushing them occasionally use that they need to defend their country. the everyone knows very well that we don't sell but known as pineapples or any kind of children's toys. we sell women's. yes, we're also known in the world as items dealers that we must not be ashamed of them

. the of the revolution of 1789 in france, gave hope for the liberation of the oppressed peoples in the french overseas territories. but paris did not want to part with its stores as a profit. silver sign of the colonization was the uprising of black slaves in haiti that remote island produced almost half of all the sugar on the planet. sooner was made by isn't franchise slaves broad from africa. scene 1791. they started an uprising against their oppressors. the black swept away the colonial administration and formed their own army. it was led by that charismatic leader,

francois dominique tucson lever to rank to james to regain control of the colony were unsuccessful. having comes up, our napoleon dispatched a large expeditionary force to haiti. the french manage the caps or to solve level 2 or by defeats, but they could not suppress the rebels and suffered devastating defeats. on january 1, 18 o 418 declared the independence. the 1st one and the whole latin america. however, freedom was paid for with the blood of 200000 courageous haitians who had sacrificed their lives for the abolition of slavery on our planet. the events in haiti were the only successful uprising of slaves in history when they not only through of slavery, but also began to rule their state the,

[000:00:00;00] the people of india have shown complete faith in the b j. b. and the a. d. a baby, any a before the government for the future of india, crime is or another the declared thing. 34 is a lie and in this general election as puddle figures reveal is b. j. p. body alone receive less. that in the previous election in 2019 this over 1500 troops in just one day is who i should viruses to about the field is due to the town of the world from most is all to the bible seems to i called a few people in view,