[000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to one's a part most western intellectual school degree and that technology is rapidly changing the world. we are leaving with one cavity that is somehow supposed to keep in place the old hierarchy of power. with the west, dictating and taking advantage of the most economic and political decisions. how far is the west to willing to go in fighting the inevitable? to discuss that,

i'm now joined by worry powell and then junk professor at queensland to university of technology in australia. professor powell is great to talk to your thank you very much for time. the pleasure to be here. now, in your writing, you argue that the world is now add them to can a logical point where nations by investing the human capital and resources smartly can truly uh, obtain the logical sovereignty m b. if not totally free, then at least less dependent on the american technology and the is dollar. when do you see these trends reaching its momentum? think that the prices have been in place for actually probably so if he is running in parallel with the american supplementary american big tech and the dominance of the american big tech model. the american big take model has been anchored in this

id or of rent seeking rights that can be that enabled them to increase super profits through the control the infrastructure and the prohibition of others from a to developing and implementing their own infrastructure. and of course, running applications on top of that infrastructure in parallel to that process has been in some regards, an underground movement that has lived on the edges of the peripheries of the technological social landscape. some of that has pain in the libertarian fringes of the american body politics, particularly in areas of cryptography, and the open source movement. who have been for a long time, incredibly concerned at the growing power and the centralized ation of authority. that comes with the american big tech model. the other part of the american big tech model is that it's not just a feature of the private capitalist market. in fact,

point the reverse american big tech would not be able to use without the longstanding multi decades support of the american government, particularly through department of defense and pendant on funding and institutions such as dop, which has supported cycled, jewel use research and development. we've reached a point in time, an inflection point in human history way. all these technologies of being grasped by large organizations and countries as a set of tools to extricate themselves from the shackles of american big tech and tech, non feudalism, and create platforms and infrastructure that support ambitions of national sovereignty. over the next 10 years, i would expect that these right, james, these technology right, james,

will begin to flourish in many parts of the world. now i suppose it's not just technology originally, it was, but also economic, financial, and political arrangements that allow for the creation of a truly inter national system, as you call it, with a hyphen, meaning that it's based on sovereignty and it's based on the idea the nations engage with a child or in pursuit of that own benefit. and i wonder if i find this notion of benefit of interest of a personal or international needs to be central here. because for some reason, somehow this american, a friend seeking behavior doesn't see this very crucial aspect of human psychology . it both them collective an individual level, the people actually, the needs need to be satisfied whether you like it or not. well, i think again, love with most things is a historical context which helps us understand the,

the state that we're in. and the historical context is the evolution, i guess, of liberalism, at the doctrine from the west that really had a way of thinking about what civilization meant. and within liberalism, civilization lots to revolve around a very particular idea of the individual. and that whole idea was that the individual was a free or tunnel. most individual that existed separate from social relationships. and that, that free individual inbound, in imbued with the qualities of rationality would be able to pass the dynamics of collective will and culture. so that was the idea now, on the other side of that idea was what was seemed to be be on the civilized person

that had to be overcome. and the other civilized person was the person who identified themselves as positive a social break as part of a cultural environment and responded and behaved within a social context. and that will seem to be an on the civilized, almost by barracks kind of way of being human. so this goes to the heart of how we understand what being human manes. and so full, 30400 d is. liberalism has sort 2 shrikes. individuals in this particular sense, well, it's interesting that it's has to be savory, not only individuals, but also, you know, large um, you know, collective groups like the united states because it didn't stop it behaves on an international stage like an individual who only has view of his own interest and totally unconnected to the world around him, not only in uh, you know, disregarding what other things or,

or need but also just regarding the basic reality, you hold the basic history of the world. look at the way of thinking about yourself and your place in the world and relationship to it. so when you say yourself as a detached individual, whether you say that as an individual biological being or individual, as a collective, such as a nation, you really don't have a sense that what's good for you or is intrinsically connected to what's happening around you. and that somehow, you're able to set yourself apart from everything else and dictate to that world around you want to be is that you want, how it is that you'll go about achieving that. we've seen that in many dimensions prior to the emergence of american had germany over the last 70 years, we sort of forcing in, in british imperialism and more broadly coming out of the west. we saw i particular

view about technology and human beings and the relationship to nature, which views nature as simply something that human beings put literally call, call and exploit. so there's a, there's in a sense of a philosophical package deal, concrete package deal that emanates it out of the enlightenment that has on the scene. the ways in which technologies are being mobilized and the ways in which a particular hedge a monic power has ultimately straddled the global lab, the skype. now that the era is coming to an end, i want to mention that you coined the term digital rest, talia and, and usage as the it may come to supercede or western dominance. now when we talk about the with valley of the history nerds among us would know that the piece of his folly a enshrined somewhere in c as the basic principle of international relations and

recognition that the countries ultimately act in the own interest. so there was a, you know, a sort of different stuff that go on depending within the west too. and what's important to me is that that piece of fist fowler came after 30 years war genius thing, the emergence of the, just all of us value of what the require such sacrifices. well, we hope that it doesn't become bloody, but i'm not provided that in some sense can provide a little global level. then maybe we can avoid the bloodshed that lead to the original trade. he's up of westphalia, in the sixty's thing. hundreds, the challenges we have of policies that whining powers done lyft guy willingly and will seek wherever they can, so cling onto what they have. and if they top click onto it, they're happy to bring the whole house down. i don't think one of the dangerous

components of the current mileage is that there is a strong except for electrical element which draws on a daily g to g di christian, a thread of thinking about the world and about right and wrong about good and evil. and that kind of jewel is, is, is, is, is a pace that gave us the inputs us to those a sake not to negotiate and work with others in the world. but to overcome of us been the well as. but professor powell, there's a, i understand this issue of power and dominance. but there is also, you know, an important element of self preservation, which is instinctual. and i think it's going to be argued that stability and um,

sort of smart alfred to allocate your resources and your efforts could be key if not vital at the time of major transitions which relieve them. and i would also argue that developed countries where populations are far less tempered by hard should've done in many other parts of the world need death more than anyone else. because, you know, you need to have all your ducks in a row, you know, that deal with phenomena that are outside of control. like for example, natural disasters, or even large migration flows there. lots and lots of, you know, huge problems in the world that even the united states where that super ego cannot deal with a loan. um, yep, it seems that the west is a band on the wasting. it's safe to cushion that it has accumulated over centers as fast as possible. how do you explain that? i think it's very hard to explain because in some regards you would think that that

kind of self destructive behavior is irrational. so there are funds irrationalities, which help us understand what drives these behaviors. and as i talked to them before, some of those rationality is guide. so that sense of dualism, the belief that they represent all that is gold and everything else is all that is able and. and when you've got that flowing through all costing through your binds, then you can just about rationalize anything. i think that's part of the explanation . i think that there is also some, or how you mean if he effects that a guy on, from a systems point of view. and that is that in moments of desperation, as you feel of your authority in the world around you, that you thought you knew very well and controlled, slipped through your fingers. your 1st reaction is to try to stem the flower to

hold that back to block the flow from happening. but the problem is, is that what often takes place as a result, you said you cause more harm to yourself. and this is what happens in the system in the energy responses, where you think your attacking on your body sinks that's attacking the threat to your system. but in fact, it ends up coding itself. i don't think that a lot of that's going on. i'm you see that all over the place where, for example, the, the, the, with an organization of technology in the name of preserving liberty and freedom and democracy and all those things actually on the la times, liberty, freedom and democracy and all those things. and we have reached the stage where i think that the, the, the, the global majority, if you will have realize what's going on and have simply prepared themselves to move on. okay, well uh, what exactly the global majority is doing in order to prevent parents off to move on. we will discussing a couple of minutes station,

the

the of the welcome back to wells apartments bordering powell and then junk professor at win slend to university of technology in australia. professor powell and before the break, we were discussing various forms of weaponized seeing the existing financial or technological infrastructure. but i think there is also a pretty clear trend on uh,

picking up a battles litchfield battles, rif countries. death can actually afford themselves. there's no logical silver, so somewhere in here, i mean 1st and foremost, restaurant and china. do you think this technological rise of the rash can be stopped or reversed by this? i would claim very intentional. breeding of insecurity by the west using insecurity as a strategy to a set of queen onto, you know, the passing away privileges the to get can be stopped. in many ways. the technology genie is out of the bottle now. and what that means is that the tools are available for people around the world and nations to build the hardware and the software that they need to protect the environments that they hold to be important, the informational environment that they hold to be important. so when countries or

businesses enterprises in countries trade and conduct commerce with others rather than an operating system, which requires a massive amount of data to be basically shared through server as a new new york. or, you know, the policy, the united states, which enables united states authorities to intervene and in effect so vile data flows. and of course, if they, so i want to sense the data flows to block the flow of funds this to, to, um, to sanction transactions, etc. etc. now, once you've got the, the digital parts, the, on the ground tables, the satellite networks, the doctor centers that enable your information infrastructure to operate independently of that. the next thing you know, the operating systems and what we have is the development of

a scale. very robust, the operating system is based on open source platforms and technologies, whether it's in a software applications or even in the design of mock, our process a trips. so open source becomes the next frontier. the next thing that gets built on top of that is actually a new set of standards. the standards of the world will begin to oper, right? but at least the global majority will be our console standards. and the reason why i control standards mca enables it to operability between what, how otherwise autonomous, with finally in like digital eco systems. now, the last thing that will get billed from an infrastructure point of view is an array of cryptographic tools. now cryptography is in essence the, the mathematics of keeping secrets and the, the need to ensure that insulation flies only when and where it needs to flow or to

the right people to the right counter copies and not to others is actually going to be 8 by 10 feature of the new technology landscape. and that's a good thing because it enables nation states and the enterprises and individuals invited station states to continue to conduct intercourse with those in all across the world. without fear that that information will create threats to themselves or to the country. okay. i understand that operate outside the reach of the western width. so to say, and i think it's important to add that it is in the interest of unknown, the western players to share that technology or with other countries as they do on the very rapidly in order to essentially realize that own view of the world, the world that is truly inter national with a hyphen in between that can also act as a system off. um, you know,

balances and counter waits for um, you know, to toronto, they call accumulation of power. and that's the power that's in and of itself that the united states, while preaching or extolling the, the values of democracy is actually conducting itself in a very, they're not called very despotic or very capricious way. and my question about that is not ideological. i wonder why do you think the united states has a band and this, you know, a craft of traditional classical diplomacy? is it because it doesn't feel the need for it been doesn't it doesn't feel the need for negotiating with other countries or simply because it cannot do that anymore. i think he lives across the sugar high of you need polarity over the last, if he is, has actually colored out the, the well spring of state craft capabilities within the institutions of the american

political system. and it has essentially leaves off the vipers of pax americana way, and it could dictate times to everybody in the world and a deed. and it didn't that any longer have the skills needed to negotiate with others. and i think this rise as a very fundamental issue about what being a great power means in an era of multi polarity. and the question really is whether one can sustain a position or an approach way. the great powers literally expropriate from the rest of the world, or the great pals actually empower the rest of the world. and that's the paradox because to be a bright power in a multi polar environment, you actually have to be generous and you have power. why? and when you can do that, you will actually build a very robust,

multi polar environment in the technology will give you an example rather than holding onto all of the intellectual property. for example, in a particular set of applications or operating systems. a multi paula environment, characterized by digital westphalia, will actually say leading countries in 1st significantly in building the skills and capabilities of applications, developers and software quotas. and people like that in the global majority. because you want people in those parts of the world with all the skills i need to participate in this multi polar architecture. yeah, absolutely. that's what the americans used to call when the way a man that brings me back to the glory days are for us to have gemini, uh, when its power was described by former years secretary of state, as an old, bright,

as benevolent um. it was background based on the idea of the united states being the global public goods provider. and the argument was exactly that. the united states doesn't curse, the country's call parade with it willingly because they appreciated generosity. my question to you is, are there any public goods laughed at this point of time to the united states junior late shares with the rest of the world without expecting something in return? not at the moment, and i think we need to also remember that during this period of national public goods provisioning the united states deed nonetheless, undertake continual military interventions around the world. so for example, between 98461990 the united states into the guys and $2.00 military interventions per year on average between 1991 and not in 2019. that

number actually increased to $3.00, military interventions per year on average. so despite the fact that it was a dominant apply up to, to equally in the post soviet period, it actually continued to pursue a kinetic 1st approach to how it wielded its power and authority in the world. so madeline albright, i think i was a, was a great sales person in that regard. and it was a very nice way to help people forget that there were other parts of the american empire in terms of its role conduct well in the american slide to say that mantra, the perception is a reality. and sometimes they seem to believe in it themselves. now you mentioned the kinetic or military aspect of it then clearly, you know, all the countries have been like the americans have been paying close attention to what the americans or the west generally is doing overseas. both russia, china,

turkey, and many other countries have 4 to 5. the military's but uh, china and russian particular as far as i know, china already has a larger navy that the united states. russia has acquired an ad in the supersonic a weaponry. and it's true that the western countries i'm modernizing, the arm is as well, but they are relying primarily on private const contractor. so it's more expensive and far less time efficient because in both china's and russian leaders can command their industries to develop and a certain way and deliver a product. my question to you is, as far as you know, kind of the west actually keep pace with its adverse areas, giving, giving how i, avidly it's, it seems to be picking a battles with them in terms of its manufacturing sector. it's clearly well behind and it is going to require a substantial investment in new technologies,

new robotics systems, as well as in the soft eco system, pre conditions necessary for successful martin diag menu factoring. and i'm moving by that design engineers then graduates, etc. all of these areas are currently well sure of way of the countries, particularly china, russia, and such like are in the world. i think the other thing that's important to bear in mind is that the nature of a conflict, i guess, in a multi polar environment is different from how things have been. and we're starting to say rapid developments in a range of new technologies such as dr technologies, the electronic, we'll say a and the role of information. and all that many propaganda about. i mean, they that the ability to send signals and encrypt signals to you'll technologies to instruct your, your equipment, to do things. now, all of that is developing at

a rapid place at rapid pace. the material sciences are affecting things like hawk a sonic delivery. and i don't think it's going to be a real challenge for the west. the other point to bear in mind to is that they, they wisdom and particularly the u. s. military build up, i have the last 70 years has been on the titan in the context of a doctrine of global domination. and i'm a part of that, a very clear doctrine in the american public policy frameworks that every part of the world is of security interest to the us. and they, for, it's had to commit to the development of a military footprint that can, in effect, intervene all across the globe. and the, on their own times, capable of fighting to was it wants other countries have actually had

a final modest approach to how it designs its defense spending priorities. and you'll notice that every other country does not have a global footprint. cannot project closely. bar importantly, is very, very capable in that and back yards because that's what they were designed for. well, uh, the last thing i would add is that their effective not only the backyards but also within that only yards. because this is ultimately the, you know, the goal of the governance to provide for your own people at the structuring your spending in a way that benefits them 1st and foremost, the rob and then allow due to 5 tours in documents me. but we will have to discuss in some other time professor powell, we have to leave it there. i greatly greatly appreciate your time and wisdom with us today. it's been a pleasure. thank you. and thank you for watching folks to sir. again, honey was a part of

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