sessions and seeing well not only by governments, but the ordinary citizens, certainly that is emerging more and more just with that in mind. and the u. s. claims it's seeking to come to russian, china on the content. but given that some countries as you being leading, i pretty eloquently say that they prefer to work with, with countries such as russia and china instead of the west. why is washington attempting to dictate, just what happens there, instead of saying, well, okay, these countries are, are showing more of an independent streak. now it's time for them to choose their own path forward. we'll step out of the way. if you want to work with us well and good if it's somebody else, ok. with that, not be the proper way to, to do business to dictate relations in africa. i think the difference that we seeing between a country like russia and a country like america is that americans aren't use to bold effort. indeed is

standing up and demanding sovereignty and putting the focus on their own people and maybe to lots to dictate the wilton's. and unfortunately, it's living in a new world order with its presence and popularity is, is diminishing, particularly as receiving the nations of very strong and imperialistic leaders emerging in africa, which is a very, very good thing. so i think that the introduce more and more, they can say they, they not respecting the views of the people. and certainly some of the interviews that we've done across africa has shown that hopefully people are feeling respected by world power such as russia and to at least 60 in china, feeding turkey disrespected by the u. s. to don't listen to the voices and just want to be a watchtower of the what they believe or possibly inferior african leaders. and they and citizens life from johannesburg, political commentator and author

a kim miller. thank you so much. it's a pleasure to thank you. all right, that's where we have to leave a for not totally out of time. this is our introduction the the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the owners of this programs. i've certainly come across the observation that ukraine is on its last legs. indeed, ukraine's battlefield situation is grim and worst. by the day, however, it needs to be asked whether nato is on his last legs. the answer is certainly no. the

cross. how can you create? i'm joined by my guess, carla nixon in washington. he's a political analyst in lebanon. we have angie wong. she is a journalist and co host of the final countdown on scrutiny international and assemble. we cross through fedex a real i'm are he is a historian and political commentator, right across our rules. and in fact, that means it can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate where we get started folks, you know, i, i want to express my great happiness. the julia sanchez finally got his freedom back and the bomb and ation of justice. the never should have happened. julia sanchez, free. that means the rest of us are free. so now on 2 business study, you know, and i was, i was thinking of doing this program last friday before the events that happened over the weekend. the attack on civilians in crimea and then terrorist attack and august on and you know, i keep coming across it. ukraine is on its last legs, last legs. i've been hearing this now for quite a few months. now indeed, it may be on its last legs, but that's not what this is all about. this is about nato trying to inflict

a strategic failure on russia. this is what it's about not ukraine. go ahead and assemble a yes, i think that is the main issue and that's why it's very difficult to predict when this was finally and if ukraine were on its own the what would have ended for ukraine in defeat a long time ago. and i think we should even be more comprehensive. this isn't just about nato. this is also about us, has turned itself into self and made to appendix. and it's more generally about the best in general. around the, the leadership of the united states would stay calm, shape often don't going to shake off. and unfortunately, if you look at various moves that have been made in you concerning the financing concerning readiness to try to keep this will going for years. if they can,

and if you look at various moves that has been tried in the usa, of the situation is actually less stable. because for dick, if this will succeed well, what i do see in the past is an intention to keep going if necessary, from their perspective. for years they all cause issues. this, this, for instance, that you claim you, that the european industrial base is just not sufficient for it is not the right industrial base for roy economy even if they've been using the term now for at least over a year. a, the european armies are actually not very good at turning money into comeback battalion, so into complex capabilities in general, this is very but known, even the economists acknowledges that the cap, so money, that's a problem that doesn't make them necessarily more powerful. they have recruitment problems. and of course, my last point would be that what the collective wants to do is state in your brain

. they have to worry of issue for engine manpower, at least one. now if they don't want to escalate even worse and ukrainian man how is limited and has been strongly diminished. and that's a, as the context in which we see already discussed and being initiated in ukraine. certainly to prepare people of lorenzo mobilization age once again. it's a 25 mile navigate. talk about 21, and i think people to try to lloyd even further. if the collective rest, this half is weird, then your crank is going to blend right. even worse than it has already happened before. this is over. yes. and it seems say is, if that is not a major concern of its western backers, remarkably, you know, and see what we can see when i, i started seeing this when they took the height of the comp, like became quite obvious. and russians favor the terrorism would be used and we saw that over the weekend, particularly in the, in the russian authorities and made it very explicit. the,

the defense ministry is usually very, very, it's a mom they, they don't like this talk a lot. they, they give a lot of numbers, but they don't give context this time they gave context. this was an american military. um, uh, and munition missile that was guided by americans, maybe the ukrainian press the button. but this is something the united states as a part of the war, and they've made it very clear that they will react to it. i didn't use the word retaliate, but they will react to it. go ahead entry. yeah, and this comes, this term, most recent terrorist attack comes only a few weeks after the big terrorist attack up city hall. if you remember that in russia. so you're gonna see this more, more often because clearly the ukraine is losing its ground. remember, i was just about a week or 2 ago, that's a lensky had his. suppose that piece on that right. uh that really ended nowhere and then immediately rushed or came out and said, look,

we're ready for peace and putting did his asian tour to make sure he assured his allies in asia. so all of this is push pull. and the late is, you know, being a terrorist attack, it's been identified that us military weapon tree has been used in that terrorist attack. so the us has a lot to answer for, in that respect. and, you know, we're saw the fog of war. no one's actually claimed responsibility for the latest russian attack in crimea. but the problem is, you know, you have an incoming, uh, new secretary general of nato coming in march routes. right. and he is a ukrainian kind of sympathizer. so it almost feels and he comes in and in october of this year, it almost feels as if nato is kind of a ukrainian proofing itself in the event of a trump administration. coming in the following january. should trump when,

because trump has already said he is not for this, and he is certainly not for nato continue. well, i'm not sure that i'm not so concerned about that. m g because they did impeach him while he was not president. so carl, and what's to stop the congress from impeaching him before he becomes president? i mean it's, it's neither here nor there. it's the, it's the entered a departmental consensus. the accounts here. unfortunately, democracy doesn't, but staying with you. uh, garland. i mean, obviously what nato wants is russia to react very harshly of to the attack on crimea over the weekend. they're not going to get what they want. they're going to be disappointed. it will be a symmetrical, it may not even be in the region. but one thing i thought i could give my opinion um, i think that western drones should be driven out of the blacks the altogether that may be what they may do. garland, a yeah, i think that what's that will take action i think by of our meeting or

helping to supply in advance the military interest of some of their allies and us is adversaries. i think that's for sure. and i've felt all along, you know, that russia is winning, and they will maintain course and speed and they will continue to win. the reason they understand that the reasons that they're getting this desperation from us empire is specifically because they're waiting. and the us empire is trying to do something to throw them off their gain to get them to react in a way that's different than they are reacting now. because what they're doing is working. i do not think that the russian leadership understands that, that the way they fight the they're fighting this war is to exhaust their adversaries to destroy the capability of the west. to utilize you to continue to utilize ukraine as a, you know, as a, as an, as a weapon against russia. and they're going to continue doing what they're doing. understanding that if they keep doing this,

that they're going to have success. the only thing that can, that can slow their success is if they react to some of these prob occasions and alter those the successful course that they're on right now. and you, great, well, it's how did you know it? going back to something you said earlier, i mean, this is part of a much larger plan. you know, i, if you look at russian history, i mean, it least has modern history. uh, threats of always come from the west. okay? and this is just the continuation of it, this time, it is the entire industrialized west. that wasn't always the case when we think of the 3rd reich, or napoleon. so this is a, a western design. we have to remind our viewers. when you look at western imperialism, there's only one great land mass. they never conquered. it's called russia. go ahead, teddy. you know, i, i think that if using to in terms of the, the power that unfortunately is leading the best to migrate with black. i think that you're paying for the e u u p instant main to your opinions for long have for bad against tonight and states

. but if you think about the united states is needing, but it's west wide for them. it's not only about about so although their focus is now on russia, they have 400 years of these sort in terms of you. right? yeah. right. and they have a very clear conception of a. yeah. if misguided conception of geo politics that sees you raise of the location of the peoples of history the hotline, right, and know how it is supposed to be able to keep gemini in you raise of this, they apply to russia. they also apply to china by the way, right? and then the united states has an opposite again, for least a 100 years of another. that was more of a now, is strategy of preventing any regional head, gemini, anywhere else on the quote, right? not a global hegemony. any reach a hit them on it. and russia is one of those powers that is capable of building the

region that had gemini, and this is a desperate attempt. this ukraine was on the side of the west as a desperate attempt to degrade massive jew politically and to the private of the capacity of doing this, especially in the fact or lines of china. this is the worst possible nightmare. and i believe a few that the rest is this time fading. i mean, obviously the future's unpredictable. i don't have christopher bore, but from everything that they've seen over the last 2 years, a little more than 2 years. this rest of the attempt hasn't worked on any plan that hasn't worked militarily. it hasn't worked economically, it hasn't worked to mattingly. they haven't shredded the bus and economy, which they try to have isolated most and to nationally, and the proxy for and ukraine so to speak. the competing aspects of would have had to do feature rational, really one of the better for you hasn't turned out as they either. and right now i agree this investment and stuff, differentiated based me. so there's

a few days ago. right. and all of us are asked and this is initiative all along the front line. and i do think as models you said, i'm sorry, i can't quite remember who, but i do think that there is an element of exciting panic creeping into best and reactions. but of course, for all the thoughts live on this planet right together, that anxiety and panic on the sides of the rest as in fe, dangerous phenomena, it makes them even less rational. it makes some one predictable again, yes. and particularly when you see your own head gemini, the diminishing right in front of your eyes at a very rapid rate. this is something that also in gender is a lot of panic. i'm going to jump in here folks, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state with our team, the the,

what is part of is it that the employee would post that isn't the defense you of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present, let's stop without cases. let's go public or 41 percent of us adults have enough savings to cover a $1000.00 emergency. we have record numbers of americans who are on the verge of having their cars repossess more than a 137000000 americans are facing financial hardship because of medical that in america we do have a welfare system in place to help people who are struggling financially, but it's a conditional system you have to prove to the government that you truly need help. the simplest way, like explain the basic income, is that is like social security. for the rest of us, a basic income would be

a monthly payments that would go to everyone. just a $1000.00 a month, no strings attached use i have, i would like the main i don't know, i just won't go crazy. the reason that i am a fan of guaranteed income because it is this idea that everybody is deserving. just by virtue absorbing here. welcome back. across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter real about your mind you were discussing. you create the . okay, let's go back to engine, you know, and one of the things that i find very frustrating in the western coverage of this conflict is all the or missions and all of us and our viewers are aware of the address they put in, gave to these diplomatic corps last week and it's,

it's very interesting if you look at it, it's, it's long and was something he actually read and was very serious. but what was focused on most which got no coverage in the west. is it searching for, and establishing a new security order in europe? and this is what this is all about from russia's position, lot about land, you know, it's not about expansion. is he always here isn't how or how can all of us live here together, where we have security, that is indivisible. i know that it was a popular term when i was coming up, but you almost never heard hear it now. and there's something that the west willfully ignores. they want victory. they want to crush. they want to destroy rushes as we need to have security. and when we have security, we can have peace. that is an element. do you never hear in the west? angie? no, absolutely. and by putting saying that a completely destroys the western narrative that rushes the bad guy. and we're the

good guys, and we're helping ukraine to feed the bad guys. they need to create this narrative, mainly for the military complex, right? the industrial complex that they keep feeding. congress keep speeding money to remember. so much money has gone into a lot of these defense contractors and military producers of that. you know, a lot of these equipment and, and things that we're buying won't be produced until at least 2029. so, you know, it's, it's, it's unfortunate that the western media is not giving the coverage to put, and that's why he himself gives these press conferences, reads them out loud, and puts them online wherever he can. but you know, this is a propaganda war. and at the moment he doesn't have an outlet for the world media. yeah. well that is, that's, but it's called western censorship. okay. i mean, as i was going to the studio, it looks like the you is gonna try the band telegram. okay, another, i mean the, the issue is becoming more, more like the soviet union every single day. a garland,

one of the things again that i find really worry. some is that it seems like the current to leads in the west. i forgot how we used to be afraid of new killer war. they, you know, the russians won't do it. they, you know, they, they're too timid. they'll back down. well as topic has already told us they, none of those things have happened. none of the things that the west thought would happen has happened. and so they, we all should be very worried about a nuclear exchange because russia is, it has a huge, a conventional force. the west that's a go ahead. garland. yes, and what's really dangerous is that the, um, the military capacity of, of the west has declined to a point where they don't even have, they're not even capable of defending themselves any more, the neo liberal scam that it is. that is, the western economic system has hollowed out everything, including the military industrial complex. so now the leadership of the west, if you want to call it that, these bundling hapless pools deal, they're powerful,

not because their military can do anything, they understand that their, their, their ships are now, you know, subject to easily being attacked by hypersonic weapons, etc. but the only reason they feel strong is because they have nuclear weapons. that's all they have to rely on is to swallow a suicide pill. and that the doesn't that tell us that you can go up the escalation ladder pretty quick, considering that you just head. right? because when you have nothing else, when you have no other way to defend yourself, that's the only thing that you can go to in the event of a conflict because you're going to lose on day one militarily. so what do you do one day to use while it was so suicide, when i might add this, that the ruling elite is now called totally and completely is strange from the masses in the working class. you need only look at what's happening in the elections in the united states and in um, in europe, you know, in the u. k. in france, etc. the understand that the people have had with these people. yeah. but the

cutting out, i agree exactly what garland says, but that's all the more reason for the quote and quote, more economy giving more power to brussels, degrading the sovereignty of the you, members of a nato directives about being able to move troops through uh, e u, countries, i mean, this is part of the project to this is the creation of the united states of europe . it's so many people want and most in europe don't what you know the thing about. so you can union is that from its inception really in the 1950s, it's been the very latest project, right. and estimate this project, it's done certain things effectively. it's boot the common market. it's good at the rock of c a as far as one can be good at it. but at the same time, it has always not been democratic. the european union is simply not a democratic setup. it's been designed to give much more weight to it limits the

come from the various member countries. but that was actually a democratic accountability that they may have still at home once they've become european union. the leads that substrate goes this whole thing as the same time. what we have seen recently is that it has become, it's actually brazen and shameless about supporting a thing. it says to the united states to washington, right. and what's left on the line of cause is the key figure here, but she is by no means alone and use it for red is not much better even if he sometimes strikes a slightly different tool. right? so these are 2 ways in which the new union is institutional, the s u n. a, it's quite systematically from the european. so actually live in, right, it's an inhabitant as the citizens who live in it and you'll see them. but again, it's against that. but the part is, what happens is everybody onions, you know,

bomb goes initially and is left to the likes and of maloney and bind. i'll be have to be for maloney fire. right? which stands for you get somebody from the smallest fall right? getting into power and they have then absorb yep, by going along with all these prenatal pro american policies, the next big case business might be the question that they don't know how to end could be funds right at the end of this month. they have very shortly they have very important elections. there is funds goes to the us, am i right. so this all right, sounds everybody's across since visiting with law is fine, right? maybe not maybe well, you know, you know, when you mention maloney or you know, yeah, they all worried that she was going to be the next. most selenium chanted up being the next tony blair. so i am not really i'm not with the. yeah, i don't put a lot of stock into that, but i see your point now. i mean, but, you know, angie, this is one of the most interesting aspects of this. and it's something that i've had my many and my guess to discuss is that, you know, you have these european

a leads that are so subservient to the united states, what it is not in their security interest. i've always said, you know what, people say future historians will explain, but i think it will be future psychologist. it'll have to explain how this happened . go head injury. yeah. i mean, certainly it's the legacy kissed the ring of the us president. i don't know if that's going to happen anymore. i mean, we've seen joe biden perform with european leaders the last few weeks and he's not performing very well. so i, you know, but it is legacy, it's tradition and i understand the respective countries. but i think my colleagues on this program is absolutely correct. i mean, you see all of europe and other countries around the world going far. right. and it's just dependent pendulum swinging from left to right. now are we going to find a center or we're going to find some sort of common sense? i'm not sure, you know, and a, i've always had a problem with the far right. but i, i get your point here. it seems to me more and more people just want to run away

from behind the liberals. ok, i mean if that's far right, i can go for that. ok. but there are many people on the left traditional left that i see i on so many issues. it's these people in power and their ideology. i mean, i'm sure this is, this is a, a convergence, but it's going on here. and it's, it's actually a garland, we have to go back to what working people need. i mean, we that's been absent for almost 50 years in the west. go ahead. yeah, i think we have one other think this happening is in an ideological realign. i mean, we are in the traditional descriptions of far right and far left and center are changing. we have what would i call in the ultra liberalism before people would say ultra nationalism, this fascism. i argue this, let this, that this level of ultra liberalism that we have has really turned into fashion. yeah, i think what we're looking at now, people like me on what you may consider the far left and other people are

considered conservative. who believes number one, 1st and foremost in international stability, which means independence, which means sovereignty, which means understanding that the us is now, it's not a us lid and they told it to us dominated nato. and it is brutally and co worth of we dominated, which we see by their actions in blowing up north strings. so i think we're seeing an oregon and we're seeing the 8 feet. so say, well, we can agree that our country should be sovereign and at least yeah, the problem is we are rolling that they'll cover color revolution. both of them if necessary. no, they, well yeah, or worse. oh, you're worse than the case. i've got a, i want to ask you center and assemble. there's turkey stay in nato after everything is said and done. and i'm obviously thinking not only of ukraine, but i'm thinking of what's going on in palestine and the potential for war in lebanon. or no, i'm not actually it. next button tech is politics. unfortunately, i don't even speak text box. but as you have oh, i see, you know,

signs the turkey is about to read. it can be changed. it's foreign policy. um, but at the same time, as you know, even in size natal turkey has now for years very much insisted on its own interest and on taking positions off its own. i mean, this goes back to the s 400 issue of questions. for instance, it goes back, as you rightly pointed out, just now it has to do with a busy as i believe, genocide, that is what it is committing against the palestinians. and that turkey has at least verbally and much more clearly contradicting for many states and other states and nato. i, i don't know about any plans to actually change its former appearance, right. this is a different issue, but i do think that turkey is insist on his sovereignty in a way that for instance, a country like canada does not or germany for that case. why it's

very interesting in jail. i'll let you enter the program here. i mean, we have the election coming up here. how much is ukraine going to play into the us presidential election as well? you, well, joe biden has a problem with ukraine and also whether or not to support which side of gaza and, you know, benjamin netanyahu said to come to a joint session in congress next month. and joe biden, and democrats have a big, big problem here. i can't imagine a worth soft power event that you could have having benjamin netanyahu go as the entire global south is outraged with the way not only be as rarely as are behaving but more more, more, more importantly, how the us is behaving. and all of this now i, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in washington 11 on and, and this is campbell. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. and remember across

the summer to attend and i'm going to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do the have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want marshall state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the ways that the,

the headline stories this hour, at least 40 people are injured after a passenger train, the real, the north western russia. we've got the details plus the people of getting to have started the that would be that they will do nothing to do with these by non speed of 2020 for i can feet. that dramatic. you turn the canyon presidents sprout, so a controversial i in that box tax film that sparked deadly protest in the east african nation. the .