the the, the many years ago i took a trip to northern argentina where i stayed in the hotel that had a view just over the fluttering river into both brazil and part of why i thought correctly as it turned out, that this would probably be the only time in my life when i could go to products, why? even if it was just for a day. so i paid a taxi driver to drive. we didn't even slow down when coming to the border. we just blew across it. but the sleeping border guards didn't seem to mind much. i don't remember very much about where i went that day in. so you got the state part of why . what i do remember is seeing what was more or less a parade of electronic equipment being smuggled into brazil. it was both brazen and

obvious. the question though was why, when i got back to my job at c, i a headquarters i mentioned what i'd seen to a colleague the last. and he said, that's how hezbollah makes its money. there's a huge lebanese community and see what the deal is that they smuggle electronics to brazil, and then they send the prophets to his butler. it had never even occurred to me. i'm john to reaku. welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 the most in the media, in the think tanks and even in hollywood, focus on terrorist operations on capabilities and on strategy. where will the next attack be? how many rockets does a terrorist group have? can they build bombs where their cells located? can they get on to an airplane? not much thought that was normally given to something that is at least as important

and that is terrorist financing. i'm not talking about the work of treasury, department, or finance, ministry, bureaucrats and accountants planning future sanctions. i'm talking about how terrorist groups around the world pay for their weapons, explosives, ammunition, training, housing, even their travel. i'm talking about how they raise and transfer money. money is the life blood of terrorist groups. it's money that allows them to launch everything from a tax to propaganda campaigns. the conventional wisdom is that in today's world, it's extremely difficult to launder money or to pay cash for anything of any real value without it coming to the attention of a government. but it happens, it happens every single day, assigned a bit loud and managed to assemble an entire army. mostly under the radar. has bella is one of the best financed and best armed to terrorist groups in the world. how does that happen? it takes a special person to develop expertise in terrorist financing. it takes the person

who is not afraid to confront the details, and it takes a person who will be committed to the issue over the long haul. we are very fortunate to have that expert with us today. loretta napoli only holds a master's degree in philosophy and a master's degree in terrorism, studies from the london school of economics. she also has a ph. d. in the field. she was a full, bright scholar at the johns hopkins university school of advanced international studies in washington, dc. following career in banking, loretta went into journalism, publishing her work in newspapers, all across europe, as she's now chairperson of the globe. they might lead. that's a group studying terrorist financing. she's the author of 11 books on the subject, including her latest called pin no capitalism, loretta and a pull a on a thank you so much for joining us. what thank you for inviting me, loretta. you have devoted much of your adult life to finding and to countering

money laundering and terrorist financing. you've advised governments and heads of state from around the world. you've written about the subject and you've appeared on virtually every important news network in the world. can you explain to us why the measures that have been taken by world leaders and their governments have not been enough to stop terrorist financing? but i would say that the 1st reason is that this measure a change from country to country or in terrorism. it is a global phenomenon, in fact, i think is one of the most globalized illegal activity is. there was seen the st sooner, the floor of the building wall and the policy that being put in place to come to tatters, financing, and also to meet the gate, to raise them the impact of service activity or even to eradicate saturdays of not being put in place everywhere or in the same way or with the same intensity.

so there is some, an approach, the global approach, which is not as strong as it does require. so this is the 1st reason. the other reason is that you know, 10 or is, is very much, you know, parts all of our life, them as being with us. so right from the beginning go and tell her is believe that the freedom pfizer says would they want to change existing regina? so they work together with clement organization and then cleaning organization the of the deep, a deep rooted in the any society. so it is a problem that i'm afraid we will never solve to completely. now we can meet to gauge so we can reduce the impact, but dreaming of a solution to terrorism. i'm afraid to, it's

a dream that will never come to how much of an actual problem is this? on a global scale with a post $911.00 changes in place in the international finance. is it possible for terrorist groups to finance their operations on a grand scale? to okay, so $911.00 was then i would say it was one alpha. meaning that was an event that took place at certain point in history because of a series of circumstances. so if you think about that, the hijackers were funded with trans federal money taking place to norma by cut norma banking got channels. so they, they obtain visa to enter the united states. most of them not to solve your ad, your own is the, the procedure right now. all of that to took place at the time in which nobody

could have predicted or would have expected. and events like that, not to take place that think about getting on a plane without being checked. i mean, this is, is it possible it's never going to happen again. but that doesn't mean that terrorist that's not pose at the same kind of threat that's needed with 911. i mean the look what, what happened with the seminal october attack by a months in israel, i mean did retaliation know from is or at least very similar to what the united states as done after 911. now that is so generally what inflates people support therapy with the support of people that sympathize with certain codes. so we will see the consequences in the years to come. so from that

point of view, i would say that is still possible to create the same kind of the cale set at global level, or at least at international level. and also does possible through these kind of event exceptional if and just to convince people to join in the fight. because the illusion that these kind of attacks project is that it is possible to achieve the goal of terrorism. so in the case of a kind, i swear, all know, was the distraction of the united states that as an economic superpower. so the tact to towards the, the far away enemy in order to stop the far away enemy from financing and supporting the near enemy, which was, you know, the corrupted regina of the various countries from where, you know,

the members of archive that's came from to the same think we can then say hey, could up and now after october, the 7 know of course it is an illusion because no, right? oh no, we don't have any prove that's the in history, these kind of event of really change an existing or a game. so unless of quotes that followed by an uprising, which is a public uprising? no, we have not seen this happen in go in the our award after $911.00. we're not going to see that happening in the rewards after october 7. but never the less, you know, there is this idea is this new, you know, and that is what we should really be concentrating on. if we want really to meet you gauge and also to reduce the power of error. so again,

it's ations. i read recently that virtually the only way left to launder money on a large scale is through the purchase of real estate, fine art and resources. i don't fully understand that. can you explain? well, yes, of quotes. what we've seen a many cases in recent years. so people buying uh, for example, a property in the, in spain, uh, in the south, in the, on the, on the menu there on your shore. so of spain, portugal also, you know, the 1000 valley and the use these kind of activity to load their money. now you, you may ask ours, this possible because, i mean, you can, people are actually, you know, carry suitcases and therefore cash and some with the accept them. well actually yes . i mean, most of the money laundering them, they staking place today as it was in the past by the way it was in the past takes

place and in cash and takes place with bach shipment that because you know, we're talking about large amount of money. i mean i, i gave you an example. i actually came across a situation like this in the option tina is. so people in the united states want to buy property in one of cyrus because you know, they want to have a place to go during the summer months. so, or, you know, whatever, you know, but they can't really bring the money in so easily. you know that then to take them out because there are no one entire section. so what did they do? they range for people that they know to do the exchange. so let's say, you know, you are in a resident of the cyrus, you are

a professional and you want to send your children to school in the united states and you have to pay the fees in us dollars. so instead of doing the transfer of money, which of course it will be tax and also regulated, at least you know, until recently, where you do is you, you get into an arrangement with somebody in the united states. and you will provide the money in the website is to buy an apartment uh for this person and the next change, this person will pay the fees. all your children are going to university know this is a very, very, i would say, middle class level, any happens all the time. now, do people know that by doing that, they may get involved with money laundering? i think you lots of people don't, but this is a very,

very easy way to overcome restriction, know on both sides through this kind of connection. so yeah, i'll do you stop something like that to see in order to stop something like that, where you need is to educate people, to teach them that by doing that, by behaving in this way. that actually, you know, breaking the role. but also, they are supporting any legal activity. this is just one of the many example. and then of course, you also have, you know, the, are towards the same to be, can be applied to the art ward you, you, if you are buying something go, which is very expensive. if you're buying a castle or you know, in a row, that's going to be very difficult. but if you buy, let's say,

and middle to lower side artist, which is not very well. no, no, it is in you. it doesn't require a lot of money. then. yes, you can easily do something like that and you say, well, i'll do the loan, the millions and millions, hundreds of millions of by doing that. and just repeat the same old variation over and over again now. or there's plenty of people who are willing to get into this kind of activity loretta and apply on it internationally recognized expert on terrorist financing. thank you for speaking with us, but don't go away. and we're going to take a short break. and when we come back, we'll continue our conversation and ask her about the methods by which terrace are prevented from financing and how the must constantly change state to.

2 2 2 today, the arab countries are in my view, in a stronger position than they were in 1973. they carry much more economic weight than to didn't 1973 today guys, uh united something and. and it's very clear that the palestinian issue is not going to go away and there is no way israel will be integrated in the region before this browsing issue is resolved. the, [000:00:00;00] the position i would suggest in belgrade was suggesting that we send americans and,

and the bridges on the drain and put on your bill is us on obama . move donnie and holly now, and they'll talk soon. but as to when you see it, all the owners will tell you that you will see the 1st of classes you know, the middle city. so what i need to file a post post. most most of our thoughts in this one is not as a guide. you on a source or sit in motion around noon. it may be, you know, a lot less radioactive than the something is active uranium, but still it's radioactive. it has toxins that can killed the laptop. you want me to go and see so easily. again, let's see the echo seats. the boeing good. i don't, the mold was suggesting we farm sell grace for bill cars that are what they were just

the each. 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto. we're speaking with officer journalist and terrorist financing expert loretta nipple a on a. loretta, thanks again for being with us. thank you. loretta. i spent 15 years in the c. i a working on counterterrorism, followed by 2 years as the chief investigator at the senate foreign relations committee. i remember very well how complicated tracking terrorist money was. and i remember how so many big important international banks found themselves involved. it was probably inadvertent, but there was also an element of bank leaders being blinded by greed. that's would cause them to look the other way for far too long. has this been your experience and if so has that changed? oh, yes, absolutely. i a s being

a my experience. oh so things have changed. since i would say significantly after $911.00 because of the end of banking regulation. it is not as easy as it was in the past, but this is still take place. i'm afraid. yes. this is an element of course as come into the equation and reason to you, and this is creep to conferences. so now i, a beast calling is very much a core and say that is tracked every single step. now initially, bitcoin was used by team and organization on the dock and that it was also used for money laundering. but that as stopped because now it is clear that

you can track of every single step of the beads calling the bulk chain. and eventually, when you go and exchange the beat, the bid calling for real money, which can be any quarter and says, this is when that's the mechanism of the investigation actually can block you. we have several cases was seen in recent here where, you know, people where long getting really on. so, and there was a hand discover that actually was the f b i that they did the 1st major but break through with big coins. but this calling is just one of the many, many, many, crypt accordance is some, some of these crypt mclawrence is like monopoly money. how they're just being created out of view of the success of search or organization which of pulled up, you know, web page is or that they sell service and kind of services on the internet

. so through that kind of a crypto car and see if it is possible to long throwing their money because there is no control because you know, there is no, it's impossible to patrol every single transaction without the the block chain which includes just typical only of the beach calling them now the banking system, a dozen deal openly in bates calling audio. now beach cooling is part of the financial industry, let's say in the, in the united states. so technically speaking, you could, to beach can still do this kind of activity, although, you know, it's, i don't think i haven't seen it anyway. i mean, claiming organizations are not relying on on beach call and, and then you know that there are many other ways. um, there is

a formal banking system for example, known as a, sorry only there while a but also the informal banking system which is use in, in china. i mean, the chinese do land each other money to a new form of banking system. and often the system is based upon in a large family. so if you really want to money loaned me to uh channels which are either the banking system, the or you know, the informa banking system. you can still do it. but you have to be more careful than you are before. i actually wanted to ask you about that. specifically. i did an investigation more than a decade ago for john kerry when he was the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee. i went to the middle east and i was able to transfer just as

a test, $50.00 to myself, through something called while i went to a small shop in abu dhabi. i gave him in $50.00. he gave me a very long number by which to later claim the money. and when i got home to washington, i went to an arrow bakery. i gave the man there my number and i got my $50.00 back . this was very small stakes, of course, but are these while as used to finance terrorist groups and if so, what can be done to regulate them? of course there is there why that is use for terrace finance and i mean it's not. so we just know the deal wallace system is controlled by terrace organization of 3 not, but the wallet system is so you, jack, and it's all over toward is you know, it's a super global. the system is, um, is actually very cheap in comparison to other systems. so transfer like, you know,

west and, you know, for example, ice very quick. you can do, i mean, you, you must have experience. that is, is also link to the goal. and so the, the reserves of their while a are actually in goal to see it. so you can even transfer that goal instead of you know, transferring money if it is possible to do that. and that may be actually a good way to avoid the controls because i mean golda is yes, this tangible but it's difficult to phase it. so, um there, while i was there, the advantage of the wireless is that it goes everywhere so, so you can find in a wallet or to somebody that can transfer the money and gave you the money

everywhere in the ward. so, you know, you could, you can be up in the mountains, in pakistan and, and use the water. now the, of the use of the wall, i would say, in terms of the terrace financing is at the micro level. is he either small donations, for example? no, so we're not seeing and saudi arabia, for example. i mean, any body we sponsoring go on to the any zation for inside your if there is no going to use that while it's going to use either x to you either means bulk shipment of cash being the most uh the most use and the preferable one but a global level, the supervisor, the people in the, well actually look at that group, but that arms are going to zation that they believe that is fighting for the

freedom of the region. no space. if i that the freedom of the region, because most of the people the actually are sponsoring in the, in this way, people that have no idea what to terry is good. his haitian is they really do believe that the group that they're funding is a group was finding that's, you know, for the freedom of their own people. so that these kind of individual all over the words, you know, used in walla, to find the various organizations as they use the wallet, also to phone charges. so they do a good job in that range. what's the next financing battlefield, loretta? do government still have to worry about the banks? can money still be transferred on a large scale and how much strategies change in order to keep up with the terrorist to? i think we're already in the, in the next show,

the fields or the new frontier is actually cyber sad or is this very little is reported about that to so many, many companies. so do know a report that they have been hacked by organization that require payment to run some run. some is today around some of us, which is also a button, particularly i would say run some of the cyber attacks is one of the most important source of tanner is financing. and we know very little about that. so imagine of a big organization in b corporation that gets hacked and they, we'd run some way and they ask for a payment of 2 or 200000000 and stuff like that organization will pay as quickly

as you possibly can. so that nobody would know that is being hacked because you know, if you, if the news that you've been hacked comes how to then there's a few taishan of this organization is going to be damage. and there is no way there is no way that you can protect and present yourself from these kind of back tax. so hacking is the new frontier. and perhaps this is why we haven't seen a lot of financial activity for tatters financing and not the feels because the old takes place in the documents of the internet to loretta. that was absolutely brilliant. thank you so much for coming on the show. what thank you, john. know nature as all of us have been infected by terrorist and then one way or another, whether it's americans arriving for a normal day's work on the morning of september, 11th,

2001 russians gathering in the theater to listen to some music earlier this year. or anybody else in any of the world's countries. terrorism, of course, can never be accepted, never under any circumstances. it's up to us to fight together with methods that do not compromise our respect for the rules of law and for human rights. that's why we owe such a debt of gratitude to people like loretta napoleonic. i know that i for 1 am indebted thanks for joining us for another episode of the west of lowers. i'm john kerry onto please follow me on subsets at john kerry, uncle. we'll see you next time the,

[000:00:00;00] the the, what is part of the blog post that isn't the deepest view of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present during that stop without collision. is that spelled out of a mara math. oh yeah. why do you know sometimes when he doesn't

know the face sometimes the he might not be a make me happy. i don't know why i don't say man one time the the it is a war of neighbor against neighbor, brother against brother. father again saw the name get to wounded capture. now just what is the legal status of these prisoners who have been fighting their fellow citizens within the borders of their own country?