remember capabilities that they need to defend their country? the everyone knows very well that we don't sell but known as binary poles or any kind of children's toys. we sell weapons. yes, we're also known in the world is almost dealers. that we must not be ashamed of that the of the the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. zalinski says kemp does not want to prolong the war and make it last for years. is even suggested using intermediaries to achieve that and at the same time, can please for greater nato involvement. as usual, zelinski is steps between a rock and a hard place,

the cross knocking ukraine. i'm joined by my guest, den cabal look in pittsburgh. he is a professor of law and the author of the plot to scape goat russia and in kills and we crossed upon scouts last task. he is an associate professor at kyoto university, a gentleman prospect rolls, and the fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate pasco, let me go to you. here. we've had a flurry of comments coming from the former president of ukraine's zalinski. he's no longer legally the president and even under the constitution of the country. but you know, he was talking like, just want a prolonged war. he doesn't want to have it last for years. looking for intermediaries, possibly another piece summit, after the failed, 1st one, which could include russia. but at the same time, he wants a no fly zone over a western ukraine. obviously, always asking for more aid, all kinds of

a particularly, um, financial aid. ukraine is facing international default immediate, it's very so now they're in very big financial troubles here. well, is there a, the attempt to change the narrative? uh, is there an attempt to change course on how to end this conflict? how do you read it? because it's kind of all over the place, pasco, honestly like when you reached out to me yesterday with that article, i tried to find the original source. i have trouble to locate it. and what i found was, uh select mr. zalinski use um, explanations of how they still want to the feed russia and how the oh the, the on the right piece is, is it just peas according to the ukraine, your piece formula. and that, that's something that can be said towards 3 days ago. at the same time, it is very much possible that these kind of talk from him,

these rhetorical chase gets older. so, oh, happening at the moment with me, with mr. savanski, i just don't know what is the case and who is currently in charge of what he is saying. he has being consistently talking out of both sides of his mouth, which is very different from what we've heard from. let them you put in who in a rush has had a very consistent narrative, if actually with what they wanted. so the one thing that i'm waiting for is for either mr. lensky or joe biden, or somebody in the west to actually actually start picking up rochelle. and it's all 1st for real peace negotiations, which would at the end, we know that by now that we know that for 2 years, the main pillar of that would be ukranian neutrality. so as soon as somebody starts saying, we are again serious about contemplating you printing and you try that, she has missed this last. it was 2 years ago during the eastern border negotiations

. then then i will start believing that something is really moving until and unless that happens, i do think it's just more rhetoric out in the east there in order to, you know, satisfied the demands of newspapers in different parts of the western world. yeah. and, and to keep the ukraine story uh, at the top of me keep it as a headline here. yeah. you know, tad, it's interesting when task outside, you know, because the legitimacy of, of zalinski in ukraine is quite questionable. but after the dimension debate, one has to wonder who's running the show in washington, d. c. i mean, a more ambiguity, like i was going to, you know, i've a many times and this program called the biden's war and things like that. i mean, well, i don't know if it is his war, but i don't know whose words it is at this point here. i mean, again, it gets more and more convoluted. we, if this is vitamins policy, well we saw from the debate,

we really don't know what he's talking about most of the time. and so who in the administration is deciding these things it's gets there's one layer of a mystery after another. go ahead, dan. yeah. well, i think certainly anthony, blinking is a big player and all of this victoria newland had been i guess she's gone now to the administration. i don't know, but she may be lurking behind the shadows. uh but yeah, no, you raise a good point. i mean, the guy who, i guess has his finger on the nuclear button is completely absent. you know, they, they say that he's just not, they are no ones inside that body, you know, and it's a very sad and, and again, but it's very dangerous because it means there's on elected officials for sure. like a blank and 2 are really in charge. and these are near cods who want war . and really i, i've said before, you know, every president,

since world war 2 is seen, one of their main tasks as preventing nuclear holocaust, you know, protecting americans from world war 3 if they did anything else. right. this administration seems to want one or 3, and i think part of that is that you do not have a chief executive as a functioning cheap, cheap executive at the helm to check these crazies at the crazies are in control. and you know, it makes me very afraid and it makes me very afraid to pan you're absolutely right . ever since the 2nd world war, the primary mission of the chief executive, the united states, is to avoid a new killer holocaust here. but posts go, we have with this administration, they seem to have rejected the idea of deterrence, of new killer deterrents. and this is what, you know, they, they talk about who is a saber rattling, but it's really the west that is doing it because they no longer play by the rules

of deterrence. and me, united states and the soviet union were ideological opponents. okay. and they kept the peace. there is no ideological difference here, except for i would say the west is far more ideological. but if you don't play by the rules of, of deterrence, that's the nightmare scenario plus go they don't believe in deterrence anymore, or they believe in the thing one way deterrence, they do not for steve, ross shaw as somebody who has a legend illegitimate reason to, to the terms, the, to me, the west is so full of it's set off at the moment that it has lost a capacity for strategic empathy. it trying to understand what the world looks like from your opponent's view point is a basic necessity of any saying foreign policy making. and the last 30

years off up there, really polar of the pull, the bowman has taken that away. and so people like mister blinking then all this, they are literally not able to perceive any more the world from the viewpoint of the russians. and therefore they goes back to that day and therefore they think comes to the rush race plus the they do not think it's rita. this is a super huge problem. and it might land us in a nuclear or a nuclear holocaust if it continues. because the russians are not the last thing, i don't believe groceries bluffing well, i think then because from the rushes point of view, this is x a central, i mean we have an incoming of foreign affairs of our for the european union call us . and she wants the breakup of the russian federation as predict suspenseful, don't you think? i mean, and the russians do believe in deterrence. and if you don't, if you have all of this ambiguity and decision making, it's going to make you apprehend. so that's a very, very least go ahead, dan. yeah, no, i mean, the russians do have an extra central threat. you know,

the fact that these radar systems in russia were packed by ukraine that have nothing to do with defending against you credit, right. they were created under the soviet union at, as you know, so that they could proceed, strikes from intercontinental ballistic missiles from the united states. so of course, why she has to say, are you destroying these radar system. so you can have 1st dried capability against us. i mean, that would be a rational conclusion to be drawn. meanwhile, yeah, by just saying ukraine can use us in western weapon rate to attack russia deep within its territory. you have this attack on cry me on from outcry me and civilians recently, which may have used us weaponry and re cognizance. um, how could you know if the she were on the other foot, if, if cuba, and, you know,

during the cuban missile crisis, this was a possibility, was using russian technology to attack targets within the united states to kill beach doors in miami. and the us would immediately response, i mean, in the how do we know that john kennedy said that that's what we would do. so obviously russia is under a central threat and frankly rush, it has to be applauded for it's incredible restraint in the face of all this. well, that's go, that's, you know, we, we know that, um, the defense minister here to us spoke to the secretary of defense in the united states for the 1st time, i think, and 16 months. and we don't, we don't know what the read out is, but i can well imagine is it, get your drones out of the black sea and of course not threatening, but saying there could be consequences if they stay. okay. again, being very restrained pasco, that's maybe the,

the only positive all of those states that it seems that for the 1st time these casualties at the beach is of us. the pole uh, actually managed to worry people in the us, in the highest levels. the, the secretary of defense to actually say like, we need to signal that this was not the intended. and that's actually something i believe. probably this is something that, at least from the us side might not have been intended. or maybe i'm being too gracious yet. maybe it was, but it looks to me as if though based might have been a genuine kind of accident, like real collateral damage. and if the us for the 1st time understood that they might have crossed the line, then maybe we are getting closer to a point where the strategic input, the, as i just said, is again on the table, which is the minimum. yeah, the best buy the go get to us go. this guy. i won't be so generous because it we have drones are being shot down over the black saved in the united states is going

to have to reapply and do they really want a go? i will go up the escalation lot or that's it will be the ball will be an airport passcode quick before we go to the break. recently, we have seen that the united states when push comes to shop. they actually walk back from the brink as with the wrong. i do think the same still goes for russia or our 3rd world war is not in the interest of the us and they do walk it back sometimes. and i hope it's the case. also the start, well we have to keep our fingers crossed here. gentlemen, we're good to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue. our discussion on ukraine. stay with are the take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really one say better wills,

and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as 1st. can you see through their allusions, going underground? can the 1935 fast is easily led by dictator benito mussolini decided to expand its colonial empire in africa and take over the opium. by that time, e z o b o was the only fully independent state on the continent back in 1896. its inhabitants were able to defeat the italian colonies and defend their independence since then, rome craved for revenge for the humiliating defeat. in the morning of october 3,

1935. without any announcement, the foxes attacked ethiopia, and bombarded it most severely. d, d o. b an armed forces bod, courageously. but the roots allergy of the italians knew no bounds. they use not only massive bombing attacks on civilians, but also the chemical weapons toxic gases. this change the course of the war. as a result of the occupation of ethiopia, by the fastest 760000 people were killed. the capture of the african state was committed with europe's tacit approval. britain and france recognize the annexation, giving the green light to a further fastest expansion in the world. and baby, and the way for the outbreak of world war 2, the

water is part of the, the employee would posted isn't the, the place you of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present? good. let's stop without please. is that stuff out of the of the welcome x across stock. were all things are considered computer lavelle to manager were discussing ukraine the let's go back to dan in, in pittsburgh here. dan, it's been report a bit of a foreign minister law, put off, had a conversation with the us and bass that are here in moscow. and the read out is pretty simple. we are no longer at peace,

very interesting statement. how do you interpret that? well, 1st of all, he's stating the obvious that the u. s. is engaging a proxy organs, russia, so there's no way to interpret the situation any differently. so 1st of all, i rob is simply stating what the world you know recognizes. but obviously what he also is saying, and that is a warning, he's saying that look, we're not gonna sit around and continue to not respond to this. and, and that you, the united states is going to be a target. if you continue to attack the russian heart land and you continue to threaten rush ex essentially we will have to respond. we haven't responded so far against any united states targets, but that they may be coming soon. and i do hope the us gets them as well. task out, i mean to see what, obviously the nato is beating, rushing into responding in

a way that they can point the finger or is that the russians are escalating the russians. having taken the bait thus far. but there's a wide variety of things that can happen. so satellites being destroyed, drones being destroyed. i mean, it's good. it'll be hard to make the argument, you know, article 5 has to be invoked. okay? so i mean, this is the, this is what makes it very, very tricky is we, we see both sides in parlaying. that's absolutely true, which is why this is such a dangerous moment that this is something that a lot of people have warned about, including mr. law girls who said, if this keeps spirally, then you know, a, an accident might be interpreted as a publication or a pro vocation as an accident. then we don't know anymore. what's happening i'd, i do not believe, but the decision makers in moscow in washington. and even the,

the satellites in key if and, and process and so on, that they, that all of them are on the same page. this is why it is imperative, absolutely. imperative to get back to the coach, the ations. now, because we are rubbing closer and closer to a, a gulf of tonkin bowl and, or, or a, what, a lot of these issues, one of the sparks that can really cost another general european war or a 3rd. well, yeah, well and then, you know, when, when a president of united states, even if he's a candidate for re election, finds himself in a very deep trouble. i have to watch my language here. i'm focusing the world. i think the public attention on foreign policy is always one of those things you can do here. it, it, it really bothers me very much. it can in including everything we have said here is it, there is a path forward. i mean, the russians have said this, we have a starting point. now you may not like the starting point. i get that. okay,

i got it. okay. it's called the ghost patient that we do all this. i live in the sand here. let's start from that point. okay. the west refuses me even to put up anything except for this ridiculous zalinski program. go ahead, den to yeah, i mean we have to be reminded that back in march of 2022, there was a deal on the table that apparently zalinski would have been willing to accept which would allow the ukraine to keep all of its territory. that the u. s. u k blocked. you know, the truth is that the deals off the table, they're not going to get back. well, they'll never get back right be, and they won't get back to don bass certainly. nor should the, in, in, in, in my own view. and the us and the west, you're gonna have to wake up to that, you know, but you mentioned that, yeah, that the, a president, that's in trouble in diamonds and trouble. they liked to focus elsewhere. so to, to try to, to be able to win. but you know, one way to focus else. why, how about bringing peace to somewhere?

you know, you know, you got a start of, we are, the win is ridiculous. the american people, the polls show they want peace, they don't want to keep supporting you crate. they want the us to stop to stop supporting israel's war. in does it, you know, why can't the administration wake up to the fact that maybe making peace could be a winning a winning strategy for them? well, i mean pascal, i mean, if we look at the recent elections in, in europe, the, a piece of proposal is something that is far more positive. i mean, we, we see a political party after political party supporting the american position on ukraine . they suffer at the polls, okay, badly, and we're going to see one in the u. k this week as well. that will probably go. both parties are very pro war, but we've seen this in the, in the european elections. that there's a lot of anxiety about where the european union is going. i always tell what you mean american line pascal. that is true. on the other hand,

unfortunately it's not enough to yet. i mean, the centrist parties that are basically pro bore in, across the board in europe still have something between 50 to 60 percent of, of support. the 40 percent that they lost is pretty huge compared to where they are coming from. but it is not huge enough in order to be aligned slide to kind of kicked him out of power, which is what we're seeing in the u. k. like you'd change from one pro war party to the other one. and while support is roading, it the, the, the, the inertial if the system is still strong enough to keep the, the people who actually want to push forward the war in power. and that's, that's, that's a tremendous problem. and i would hope that at some point, they understand that they need to change the narrative and didn't need to be come pro peace in order to remain there. but this, you know, it's a ship, it's a ship and it's below course. and i don't know if we can avoid the iceberg on time, although it seems as if though, the general public wants to is, there is theory. it was to continue your metaphor, posts go, i mean,

we all see the iceberg. it for everyone can see it just like we saw during that debate. everybody can see what's going on here. then you decided moments ago that the dog that should not be returned to ukraine. explain too. well, i've been to the dom bass peter 3 times in the last year and a half. and i can tell you that those folks don't want to go back to ukraine and why? because ukraine began attacking those people began attacking their own people. they were their own people at that time. they were part of ukraine and they attacked them because they were russian speaking. people and 14000 people died in that conflict between t as in the dom, best, even before the special military operations began in 2022. i think, you know, once ukraine went down that road attacking its own people in the dom bass, it's seated any right to have that as part of ukraine. in any case, these are historical parts of russia. these, you know,

the dom bass was the backbone of the russian revolution of the civil war and, and frankly, of the soviet union and of russia, you know, as the industrial hard land and, uh, you know, it, they're not going back because they never want to go back in their way, she should be respected. yeah, will self determination is something that we hear a lot about here. let's go. what country threatens ukraine more russia or the united states? russia, as the russia is the one that the bombs, the ukrainians, and the united states is the one that drives the ukrainians into the russian by on it. so if i was ukrainian, i would say, i would probably hate both of them. i mean if i was that's a very new that's their that's fair. yeah. keep going. you know, it's a, it's, it's an absolutely horrible thing. i mean the ukrainians are the greatest lakes victims. i mean every day ukrainians are the greatest victims

a bit. the 2nd victim instructions the, the, the ones that i wish were more humane would be the warmongers video collins in the united states. so actually on the stand that know we're playing with human lights here, but that's something that i think does not cross their minds because they still see this as a strategic victory. which, you know, fairness it a us as never, being in a better place in the european theater, off of geo politics than now, even in the last 30 years, i mean, switch over to your strategic competitor check, get the europeans all behind you, even to what do you want to do in, in china check. i mean, this is a huge us like 3, but it comes with a lot of the premiums. yeah, well then i agree with pascal, but i even though the united states has gone through the check check, check they pascal the. i don't think that's necessarily good for a year a, but i think the a lot of european voters are beginning to realize that, dan, yeah, well, i mean, europe lost its lifeline, which was natural gas from russia. i mean,

and that's what the partly, what do you guys wanted to do in this conflict is to cut them off from that so that they depend on us natural gas, which because of transportation costs will be a lot more expensive. if i were a german in particular, i would be just absolutely furious that my economy had been wrecked, not by roku, but by the united states. and look, the people in europe are waking up to this. the elections in france show that, i mean, i think the elections turn out the way they did in large part because of france's, a terrible foreign policy in regards to both russia and, and israel and a, you're going to see more governments fall in your is they realize they've been sold a bill of goods by the united states to test out what is next year between now and the election. because everybody uses that as a benchmark here. you know, we have to wait up until the election, but what,

what happens after the election in the united states? nobody talks about that, go ahead bus, go ideally, something would change, right? ideally, we would move towards toward final reconciliation with russia and the escalation with china. but to me, i think it's, that's probably my in their fairytale. and um, because what we have seen coming out of previous elections in the united states is that the permanent state carries on. so i have no objectives. oh, judging from from past elections that something is fundamentally going to change. maybe in the best case, we will see at the escalation with russia, but that would probably mean the re focusing of us efforts to china, which might be an even bigger well over to i, but rapidly running out of time. but then i, i know that this ukraine is on its last legs, so you can make that case here. but nato nato is not on its last legs. people have

to remember that in this conflict is gone, going to be over for quite a bit of time. go ahead, dan. well, that's right. you know, i mean, of course, the candidate donald trump is talking about making peace in ukraine. he says it can do it 24 hours. um you know, that is, you know, could be taking his bluster, look, he made good. um, you know, noises before the 2020 election and really didn't. he didn't not become afraid to rush, i think because of pressure to from the deep say well, you know, yeah, unfortunately we've run out of time, but i, i'll leave you with this thought with but with relative you, even if donald trump gets selected, which i think is very unlikely in the the way the system is designed. but bill in peach him before he is a knock you rated even if he wins, just i'll leave that with both that talk with both of you. that's all the time we have gentlemen. i want to thank my guests in pittsburgh and in kyoto. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time.

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in the headlines thrown off the international faltering. the bulk fee polo was inside of a persian arriving of the capital of catholics. don, the shanghai cooperation organizations, farmers with 16 nations and attendance, discussing regional care he among many other issues ukraine, it rejects a ceasefire. hunger is, proposal is shot down on a ride for the conflict meantime is growing among the military leadership in the city didn't cause to be dancing side. almost the children, the tank was just minutes away from the chart was crying out all the students. as of that toll in gaza at 1237000 rou, full details about.