said we haven't talked a lot of how though, is the aftermath of whistle blowing. not just for the width of lower, but for the move that these individual cases, you'll just end when they're settled. often times whistleblowers go on to found new organizations to influence policy and to educate the public. today we're going to talk about one of those success stories. i'm john curiosity of welcome to the whistle blowers the the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 a. 2 our next guest is a prominent, was a blower in his own right. having exposed extrajudicial killings, human rights, violations, and apartheid style interrogation techniques being carried out by the south african police. like every whistle blower i've ever met already, denique is did not start out to be one. he was a greek teenager who move to south africa to live with a family member. and to start a career, you had an act for technology,

and it came to the attention of a senior officer in the south african police, who encouraged him to become a member of the police auxilary working and assisting specialized units with his knowledge. and technology. was a good fit and ready begin accompanying the police on operations, including operations, to arrest burglars and even violent criminals. he often risk his life combating crime in south africa. and he received numerous police awards for his successes. but it was during those operations that he witnessed something terrible, he witnessed south african police officers, most of them races coming out of the old apartheid regime engaging and torture, and even murder. and so he blew the whistle internally at 1st. when the word came out are his life and the life of his wife came under threat. although he tried for 4 years to deal with a crisis while running his electronics business and still fighting crime, he was forced to return to greece with his wife in 2008, fearing for their lives. later already gave sworn testimony about these crimes in

greece and immediately came under attack from south africa's pro police white dominated press. he was the famed and threatened, but that didn't stop him. it encouraged him. so rather than go silent, try try to fade into the background, or he decided to embrace the whistleblower narrative. he began working pro bono with a highly respected blueprint for free speech and with transparency international greece, which in 2016, awarded him a special recognition for his whistle blowing efforts. as he gained vast experience advocating for freedom of expression, freedom of speech and whistle blower protection mechanisms, he created alliances with other european and american whistle blower organizations . they recognized his contributions to the cause and now is working on legislation in greece and other countries kind of not to further strengthen whistleblower protections through his own n g o. it's called liberty of speech. the bottom line is this whistle blowing is

great, but we need even more whistle blowers like our region because our joins us today. he is the founder of the greek and geo liberty of speech. all right, welcome back to the show. hi donna, thank you for having me already. for those of our viewers who don't know you and don't know your background, could you talk a little bit about your own whistle blowing experience? i know that i didn't do it justice in the opening. you and i have been friends for a long time. i know the details. i've even seen the awful videos that you brought out to expose these crimes. but tell our viewers who you are and why you are doing the work that you're doing. what was it that led you to this point in? did you and i go back a long way and it was sure come on, greek, inheritance, or the fashion to speak truth to power for those who don't know me, i'm a groups of topic i'm and that's 15. i me create this a topic in order to study electronics. i mean the process often in love with a country. it's diverse culture and the rainbow color stuff,

which as nice as you saw topic out from you, but unity because a fucking degree. secondly, that it had, and i grab this of which and successfully build a really, really products oscillating, at least through the end of appetite. and a weakness of africa, stuff was issued to democracy with all these challenges presented often have become a subject and season. and my computer and tony business was robbing. i was advised by senior police officer, also a specialist. you need to be joining that as a force officer, volunteer crime, scene investigator, or the most the most. i was in my late twenties and passionate about planes that all of the seller calls thing that i to department. i jumped to you, they deal having the training buds and the positions and the elite for this unit named seuss, involved in crime at the time. little that i knew that the head of this unit together was most of the specialized offices. what ex oper type,

every policeman with a dark past, still most onto the old regime, with the secret code of hate or against people of color. also spent some time with seeing the units i discovered that those races classes within the police force were using the protection of the uniform to demonstrate the hater on the african suspects, as well as peanuts and c. b. this is the color while promoting prohibited. i'll put hide methods for interrogation, such as start your extension. so key things and often money creating a top and it was crime scene. so in order to get away with the crowds, where you just my 1st on duty torture of a suspect by the cost of money you each a minus the use a state of the art at the time smartphone to obtain 3 short video clips, while opportunity to that i was receiving a call from a product increase all the time. i took a big risk without knowing the want,

which of lower i for common sense and made any general disclosure to my commanding officer is supposed to be close friend. the time the director of organize from union can cause on the durban. she just lost custody and when i presented it'd be just the she, she called me just broadly. that's how my boys get the results. is it asked for a copy in a pre type of a fall to wiley struck and you can switch things started to go south after that, although i still felt relatively protected by my friends is also called with these come under of the do me that he's found many in in 2007 weakness what i consider to be the turning point for me when i arrested crowns with a director of a unit and a witness that trustees and gross human rights violations. 5, the same got the money unit. the director was called by his union members to the rest in order to quote the native tongue putting off the crime scene and discuss the excessive force used by the policeman. us wireless execution of suspects by the

union. it was for the pick up spent high caliber cartridges and turned them over to officers of the scene. i was off to take photos and videos of the scene. a civilian friend was invited to cab with us of the crime scene and see what we can just above . and wanted to advocate suspect remains. we thought maybe treatment purposely a delay to def walter, quite a matrix where the fuse entry by declaring the c unsafe stand a method used by this unit in order for the suffix to die within a few months of the incident. enough that i had go from the, the commanding officer about my homeless bigler and it was a drive by shooting at the store. while i was off and received death threats and these kind of tact i made to further extended disclosures of cor options i media announcing my resignation enough that it was far off by members of my unit at my home i was forcing to ex, so waste my life, you return to greece

a decade or so ago with corrupt elements of the south african police still after you for your truth telling. what was your state of mind back then? certainly your primary concern was your wife and your family. you were also thinking about trying to rebuild your financial life. when did your thoughts then turn to whistle blower protection increase. i tried to stop my life, you know, focusing, adopting thing. i know in greek mythology, much different is the one i have list, drink to use and goes to the nature. adopting is a good culture for myself. my wife was a challenge, especially in the country where things were working slow. the public sector was that people with corruption and we were entering a financial across europe, annoying to me at the time. i will stop and we speak to you see something that was diagnosed on in 2012 for dr. menu randers from this international. but interviewed me in greece, but the case was a blessing in disguise for us and became

a part and for the 1st time in the country with strong democratic values, relative safety, the sides with respect off the line or the us while us my successfully investments, the land and solar power gives me a boost bottom line. i did not the wasteful future was less the gulf of what i had experienced and wanted to help improve brook consistent, but often was responsible for causing more damage. instead of helping lists of laura's vs as the initial puppy, to dig around in 2021 in my role through blueprint for free speech as a coordinator for the african region. task list. engaged with the family members of liberty to dig around for presenting the daughter of harris with a push humorous awards. is that that's my house. i realize that we think south africa accounting authorities for killing is whistleblowers. but the difference between life and death is the ability to have an escape plan. there were many,

most, often with some blows at this place, and many are still persecuted. any hiding, one of them is by 3 shot must solve that. you've worked alongside several different with the blow organizations and in the interest of transparency you and i both worked with the out standing so that dreyfus of blueprint for free speech. you then founded your own non profit called liberty of speech. tell us what liberty of speech is working on and what issues are important to you. well, i think we can help you body so goodness ations in promoting the freedom of explicitness speech and improve booster blog protection policies. look pretty, what about 1st collaboration and still going strong? after 7 years, we have done a great deal of work with the close friends and mentor suited drivers. we don't like the 1000 work. most of the top is behind closed doors and the 2018 and viking selected state. the ideal start being a greek chap through blueprint in greece,

and wanted to start a click into your name blueprint for greece. us in 2020 city decides to growth in activities and i started the n t o in the bucket seats with dr. select dreyfus being a member of the board. i wanted to extend that activity is not the only the defense article 19 of universal declaration of human rights. also article one of united nations for human rights. um, you know, we, we had a lot of issues of trying to say this a n t o. in fact we've had a lot of, uh, tax on the internet. i buy uh rugby go, elements of africa to try to sell a 1000 further conduct a snake to us, but we pull through, and now we're trying to implement new policies, but to help improve the safety of wisdom blows. so one of the things that i know

you're working on is the problem of slap suits, and journalists tell us why this is so important and what relation it has to whistle blowing. john, i was believed at the 525. the voices of whistle blowers lived with the gentlest. say that it listed between journalists and sources, a section of the secretary. when do you need me for supplies, for ways to make an external public disclosure or i don't, i'm a stepping journalist often become the subject of your deletion themselves and step digit. the creation against bobby participation is the order of the day with a nice and good, you distorted be solace. professional organizations, such as journalist and jose shuttle work is attorneys, as well as to what's the blood and sauce is called slots, which 9 grease. this is a common phenomena, nothing about you know, facility within civil and criminal charges against gymnast, simply because they are doing the job. i mean hodgin is suppose to serve the public

interest. you setting costs and it's futile for the nation. especially increase diesel reprocess is painfully slow enough for now just as the ladies just as the night already. thank you for sharing your life story with us. we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, we're going to go into some detail with our uniqueness about the piece of list of lower reforms, especially in europe, and about where the most progress can be made in the shortest amount of time. stay to. 2 2 2 2 2 2 take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify. it will confuse who really wants a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this,

but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the position i would suggest in belgrade was suggesting that we send americans in and the bridges on the drain and put on your bill is us have one of the most move dining room probably now. now that seems that a stone, when you see it, all the youngest will say that it will save you from esl classes in the middle city . so what i need to file a post post. most, most of our thoughts in this one is not as a guide on a source or cit,

emotional run. you, it might be, you know, a lot less radioactive than that. something is active uranium, but still it's radioactive, as toxins, as the kid killed the laptop. you want me to go and see. so ease of us here. again, let's see the eco seats. no boeing. good. i don't know the region mode. i was suggesting we fell great the bill call us what day was the the. 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with our uniqueness. he's the founder of the greek whistleblower

charity and n g o liberty of speech. are you thanks again for being with us or you recently hosted in international conference in greece, that included not only prominent whistle blowers from around the continent, but that also addressed issues that had here to for never even been discussed at was the blower events increase. tell us about that and about what progress was made . there was page fully initiated without fresh girlfriends, but happy to be also international and also against all odds. we had a low budget. we had you follow me in collections 3 days before our conference and it must succeed way piece. but what about it simply threw a name to global corruption and public integrity. the human factor we didn't call abrasion with the wisdom plus the america. so young country injected garrick, the president, the father of the somebody come into your trouble to greece with

a girl sprint and legal expert to human rights professor joe wage in order to present some finals and help me for these call phones through. we also have this up for the principal for the speech, but as far as their national degrees report at united, national listen wish below network was for multiple jane turner was one of many local organizations specializing, 90 corrupt supports accountability. most importantly, we had the support of the critic justice department with the secretary general asked us keynote speaker. some of the topics where they could, exec single feller regarding the reputation of the directive as well as out a lot of me are still issues tools used against junior this to ask for level, it's a slap since we started to have the support of got you and, and freedom house with new support. this divine is a month, it can be late speaking in the conference we hosted, it's

a topic and funnel with prominent activists. and what's the lowest discussing the topic of the human factor and what kind of stuff topic i do to help us with some laws that fantastic ari. i'm very interested in legislation as you know. back in 2015, i worked with blueprint for free speech to introduce a new whistle blower protection law in greece. it didn't pass as we had written it unfortunately, but a version of it did pass. more importantly, the european union decided to adopt our original version as a model for the entire e you. it was one of the proudest events of my life. tell us what the situation is in greece right now. we still see quite unfortunately, pushed back from the parliament and especially from the conservative new democracy, government on whistleblower protections. why is that? why isn't this something on which everyone can agree? oh, so this is essentially a complex issue. john goose is facing that demons. what political, ethical,

judicial, and cultural, i mean the gotten this proud d, as in producing high volumes of investments and advertising every cover, the calling on me. well, at least on paper of corruption inspection face in conjunction with an alarm is rising and living expenses as well as high tech station next to keep people video. happy. so fucked. the market is up, the public sector is one of the largest in you, replaced the country size, and in my opinion, the most corrupt is enough to be sending you. and, you know, add while its purpose is to secure votes throughout the government, the favor sends us before the elections. i'm talking about the public sector, as we know, it's now. yup, all generations. so this is meant by the reluctant to promote and decor option policies, because most of them thrive officially within a country. but it's economy supported cor option to pass. for the ginger,

new generation of business minds are educated in adopting as universal e you called to against corruption as well as promoting sustainability models of support in this policy through government accountability. and there were some blank concepts regarding culture. this is not for you to go consistency, governments come and go less than the probably gone into the, in, in the financial crises, even of using higher tax. it's your expensive cost of leavings a lot, stay new corrupted in dysfunctional public sector. and that's the result. many critics would promote action patients and sauce as well as corruption when it comes to increasing profits of the, or on, or their own business, the northern survive. because it got the most game. now do so we just took over a year off of it, easy deadlines to implement into each national last the 2019 easy directly. so that was a drug addiction, but it wasn't sloppy hospital that adopted absolutely medium. instead of this was

the ease you got this member states you extended directed to abroad, this call regarding corruption to public disclosure at the place of work you mention stays, you asked him to do more. i think the less to be for the right a for scott and g to inform there were some blood protection increase and a brief the body above the officials responsible for it. but i hope this will bust . it seems the decision lives with interest for the patients and thoughts. what are you more active? probably participation in this month. that included and yours. one of the problems lies was old fashioned for the patients, and conservative lawmakers was stuck in the old ways when he's younger brains. in your experience, what is the state of whistleblower protection? elsewhere in europe, we hear horror stories, especially from the banking sector, whistle blowers, and especially in places like switzerland and france. and what have south africa?

have there been any improvements there? should i think that there was some of the concept is confusing in most the you countries they shared is how much the spot and see how little cor opposite with these are as well as how seriously using eliminating corruption across the board to the main state members with a conflict of interest in national, those political obstacles, culture of a land which bears the box in the sector is the state within the state. so kindly because i love the game when it comes to housing, a comfortable for corruption within the bike and 6, the switzerland is nothing. these you but france has an excuse in you pausing chop the united states and which banking sector. so i've got, is that this lowest point at the moment when it comes to accountability corruption index and what's the brand protection policies or vote. and there is a pause the adage to listen to popular culture to promote public disclosures and

what's a good prediction policies based on fairly, a practical use. there is no effective mechanism to protect what's the blush and the families also have mentioned many times this stuff off the car is not stories for killing. it's a whistle. blowers are. you recently released that idea for an international whistleblower treaty or united nations official called it music to her ears. tell us about that and about its current status. just the idea came from on which the books finished off. the way i escaped without believe it was such a death in my gaze, my letter on which subject and was lost in the story. what are the allies that, that account to so corrupt you that often there was some brush i getting, assessing a deep, persecuted or silence. i remembered how bravely felt loss to hold your citizenship, if 2 passports and escaped to a friendly country after my public disclosure. that's the escape line to make the difference between life and death. but either what's to blush, this topic,

i did not have this option and paid with the lives. that's the idea off the international treaty for simple doors, as well as the issue of an expedited to visa, what we should less than this this came to me is published on the website as well as the blueprints west website. in 2023, i was advising by check and garrick, the president of elizabeth for america in your country. they use a travel and present my paper on this idea to the united states. in fact, we engage with congressional staffers with the capital. and we also engage further together, i think join now we also had a discussion out there was a blow for medical conference, workplace promising institutes in 2023 by late to school for an spastic. on the 11th 12th june, greece, i have the privilege to close the conference with the introduction of a paper and

a union senior officer news 4th task was on the panel and commented that it was music and seniors have support and these and when gaze with you play as globally to promote as well as a fine day, dear. hopefully it will be my legacy in fucking a few days. i am 100 above the universe of your hasbrook is up to present my paper off the international treaty for what's the lowest. i think i do me confidence hall on the 18th of july toppled, breaking the chain of corruption which blows us kept at least for structural do. but in south africa, you're not afraid of anybody are, you know, neither am i that's right. are you to because thank you very much. thank you. the basic reason for was the blowing is really quite simple. it's to expose non transparent and wrongful acts by those in power in order to enable reform. this china lights into dark places to expose waste, fraud, abuse,

or illegality. whistle blowers therefore, must be appreciated. they must be protected and thanks for their courage and public service. that's usually not how it works out though. the road is much tougher than that. i'd like to think our get started to meet us for being with us today and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the list of lowers. i'm john kerry onto please follow me on subset at john kerry onto. we'll see you next time. 2 2 the, [000:00:00;00] the, by the middle of the 19th century,

practically the whole of india had been under the rule of the british and by the colonial authorities, had imposed that heavy depth bringing the people into poverty. x 40 natural resources. and moreover, these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the predictions of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of disrespect even to those and cooperated with them. the facts of ignoring the religious beliefs of the hindus let them use nails as the voice mercenaries, older surfing under the british ground. 3000000000 began on the 10th of may 1857 in the garrison town of may river north of india, the form of abuse. the rebels quickly took over daily that he rode the resistance of the indian people lasted for one and a half years. however, the forces were not equal for the colonial authorities dealt with the rebels, cruel,

late fee and slaves. the boys were tied to the mouth of the cannon and were shot right through their bodies for the amusement of the public. this type of execution was called the devil's with the obliteration of them you may result in the death of 800000 inhabitants of indians. however, the british empire never broke the free spirit of the indians and their will will resist the go to zip to her deal. but provided me with the drivers why they and shape the position stores where do some of the work for which you spend people with show you the ultimate is the fundamental seasons.

that plumber to be 2 or 3 minutes silver just enough for the shock. you just go to my phone is mostly do they push you up with somebody who does she owns? well, yeah. is that audio spieth? the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings. except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show you alignment of the patient. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. the point obviously, is to place a trust rather than fit the various jobs. i mean with the artificial intelligence we have summoning the theme and the

robot must protect his phone, existence was on the

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