for the width of lower, but for the movement, these individual cases don't just the end when they're settled, often times whistle blowers go on to found new organizations to influence policies to educate the public. today we're going to talk about one of those success stories . i'm john curiosity. welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 a. 2 our next guest is a prominent, was a blower in his own right. having exposed extrajudicial killings, human rights, violations, and apartheid style interrogation techniques being carried out by the south african police. like every whistle blower i've ever met already, denique is did not start out to be one. he was a greek teenager who move to south africa to live with a family member. and to start a career, you had an act for technology, and it came to the attention of a senior officer in the south african police,

who encouraged him to become a member of the police auxilary working and assisting specialized units with his knowledge. and technology. was a good fit and ready begin accompanying the police on operations, including operations, to arrest burglars and even violent criminals. he often risk his life combating crime in south africa. and he received numerous police awards for his successes. but it was during those operations that he witnessed something terrible. he witness south african police officers. most of them race is coming out of the old apartheid regime engaging and torture and even murder. and so he blew the whistle internally at 1st. when the word came out or is life and the life of his wife came under threat. although he tried for 4 years to deal with a crisis while running his electronics business and still fighting crime, he was forced to return to greece with his wife in 2008, fearing for their lives. later already gave sworn testimony about these crimes in greece and immediately came under attack from south africa's pro police white

dominated press. he was the famed and threatened, but that didn't stop him. it encouraged him. so rather than go silent, try try to fade into the background, already decided to embrace the whistleblower narrative. he began working pro bono with a highly respected blueprint for free speech and with transparency international greece, which in 2016 award to him, a special recognition for his whistle blowing efforts. as he gained vast experience advocating for freedom of expression, freedom of speech and whistle blower protection mechanisms, he created alliances with other european and american whistleblower organizations. they recognized his contributions to the cause and now is working on legislation in greece and other countries can enact to further strengthen whistleblower protections through his own n g o. it's called liberty of speech. the bottom line is this whistle blowing is great, but we need even more whistle blowers like our uniqueness. are you joins us today.

he is the founder of the greek and geo liberty of speech. all right, welcome back to the show. hi donna, thank you for having me already. for those of our viewers who don't know you and don't know your background, could you talk a little bit about your own whistle blowing experience? i know that i didn't do it justice in the opening. you and i have been friends for a long time. i know the details. i've even seen the awful videos that you brought out to expose these crimes. but tell our viewers who you are and why you are doing the work that you're doing. what was it that led you to this point? it did to you and i go back a long way and it was a come on greek inheritance or the fashion to speak truth to power. for those who don't know me, i'm a groups of topic i'm and that's 15. i me create this and hop in order to study the tronics. i mean the process often in love with a country, it's diverse culture and the rainbow color stuff, which is nice, easy, south africa from you between it is

a bucket increase that one that it had. and i grab this of which in successfully build a really, really products oscillating, at least through the end of appetite and a weakness of thought because that's was issued to democracy. with all these challenges presented often have become a subject and seizes and my computer and tony business was frightening. i was advised by senior police officer, offer a specialized unique joint that is a force us invited into a crime scene investigator. or do you miss the most? i was in my late twenties and passionate about planes that all of silicone thing that i to department i jumped to you. they deal having the training buds and the positions and the elite for this unit named seuss. involved in crime at the time little little that i knew that the head of his unit together with most of the specialized offices. what takes up a type every policeman with a dark past still most onto the old regime,

with the secret code of hate or against people of color. i just spent some time with seeing the units i discovered that those races classes within the police force were using the protection of the uniform to demonstrate the hater on the concise pics. as well as innocence he'd be this color, while promoting prohibited. oper had methods for interrogation, such a start, your extension, so key things and often money creating a top and it was crime scene. so in order to get away with the crowds, where you just my 1st on duty torture of a suspect by the cost of money, huge. on my next the use a state of the art at the time smartphone to obtain 3 short video clips. while opportunity that i was receiving a call from a product increase all the time, i took a big risk in stock knowing the want. what's of lar, offered common sense and maintenance of disclosure to my commanding officer is

supposed to be close friend the time, the director of organized from union can cause on the durban. she just lost custody . and when i presented, it'd be just the she, she called me just broadly. that's how my boys get the results. do that ask for a copy in a pre type of a photo while it struck me silly to switch. things started to go south after that. although i still felt relatively protected by my friend c o, so cold with these come under also, do you need to respond to the in, in 2007 weakness what i consider to be the turning point for me. when i arrested crowns with the director of the unit and a weakness that trustees and gross human rights violations. by the same got the money unit. the director was called by his union members to the rest in order to coordinate the ton putting off the crime scene and discuss the excessive force use by the policeman. us wireless execution of suspects by the unit. i was ordered to

pick up, spent high caliber capitalist and hand them over to officers of the scene. i was asked to take photos and videos on the scene. a civilian friend was invited to cab with us of the crime scene, and see what we just above, and wanted to ask a suspect, remain who thought to make a treatment, purposely a delay to dest walter and made dicks where the few century by declaring missing unsafe stand a message used by this unit in nor do for the suffix to die. within a few months of the incident enough that i had confronted the commanding officer about my homeless bigler and it was a drive by shooting at the store. while i was often received death threats and these kind of tact i made to further extended disclosures of corruption by media announcing my resignation. enough that it was far off by members of my unit at my home was forced into x. so waste my life, you return to greece a decade or so ago with corrupt elements of the south african police still after

you for your truth telling. what was your state of mind back then? certainly your primary concern was your wife and your family. you were also thinking about trying to rebuild your financial life. when did your thoughts then turn to whistle blower protection, increase attractive stuff my life, you know, focusing adopting. nobody can entirely too much different. is the one i have list 20 using goes to the major or adopting is a good culture for myself. my wife was a challenge, especially in the country where things were working slow. the public sector was that people with corruption and we were entering a financial crisis in europe, annoying to me at the time. i will stop and we speak to you see something that was diagnosed on in 2012 for dr. major randers from this international, but interviewed me in greece. but this was a blessing in disguise for us and becoming a part and for the 1st time in the country with strong democratic values,

relative safety. aside with respect of the law and order as well as my successful investments, the land and solar power gives me a boost bottom line. i did not the wasteful future worse and less to go through what i had experienced and wanted to help improve a broken system, but often was responsible for causing more damage. instead of helping lists of laura's v as initial pop, we to dig around in 2021 in my role through blueprint for free speech as a coordinator for the african region. task list. engage with the family members of liberty to dig around for presenting the daughter of harris with a push humorous awards. is that that's my house. i realize that we think stuff. optic or accounting authorities for killing his whistle blowers. but the difference between life and death is the ability to have an escape plan. there were many, most off because the gloss at this was,

and many are still persecuted any i think one of them is about 3 shot must solve that. you've worked alongside several different with the blow organizations and in the interest of transparency you and i both worked with the out standing so that dreyfus of blueprint for free speech. you then founded your own non profit called liberty of speech. tell us what liberty of speech is working on and what issues are important to you. well, i think we can help you body so goodness ations in promoting the freedom of expressing or speech and improve booster blog protection policies. look pretty, what about 1st collaboration and still going strong? after 7 years, we have done a great deal of work with the by close range and mentor. so the drivers we don't like the 1000 work, most of the top is behind closed doors, and the 2018 environments relate to detain. the ideal start being a greek chap through blueprints in greece, and wanted to start

a click into your name blueprint for greece. us in 2020 city decides to growth in activities and i started the n t o in the bucket seats with dr. select dreyfus being a member of the board. i wanted to extend our state. it is not the only the defense article 19 or universal declaration of human rights, but also article one of united nations for human rights. um, you know, we, we had a lot of issues of trying to say is a n g o. in fact, we kind of look off of tax on the internet uh body uh rodney co elements of africa who tried to settle a 1000 for the conduct of us navy us. but we pull through, and now we're trying to implement new policies, but to help improve the safety of wisdom blows. so one of the things that i know you're working on is the problem of slap suits in journalists. tell us why this is

so important and what relation it has to whistle blowing. john, i was believed at the bottom beside the voices of whistle blowers lived with the gentlest. say that it listed between journalists and sources, etc, etc. when do you need me for supplies, for ways to make an external? public disclosure or i've done in mississippi journalist often become the subject of frequently ition themselves and step digit. the creation against bobby participation is the order of the day with a nice and good, you distorted solace professional organizations, such as june of this and jose shuttle work is attorneys, as well as to what's the blood and sauce the scope slaps which 9 grease. this is a common phenomenon enough, you know, you know, facility we think civil and criminal charges against general just simply because they are doing the job. i mean, hodgin is suppose to serve the public interest. you setting costs and it's futile for the nation. especially increase diesel reprocessed is painful small enough for

now just as the ladies just as the night already. thank you for sharing your life story with us. we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, we're going to go into some detail with our unique us about the piece of list of lower reforms, especially in europe, and about where the most progress can be made in the shortest amount of time stay to the. 2 2 2 2 2 the russian states never is as tight as i'm one of the most sense community. best of all sense and up the in the system to progress be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union,

the kremlin media mission, the state on the russians cruising and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services for what question did you say a request for check the cry never transitioned to the ninety's child to politics or not just continued all the way all the way for the and of course to go see the crime. never, never had a breach of choice. you come and take some stability is the power all site the

the, [000:00:00;00] the now you need your visa, stupidly from here to nancy kim's in the book is that the message should see where it gets to that the young showcase use the thing of them. so i'm just going to the ways that the boys,

the, the noun that will be put down in my trip to florida doesn't want that extra them. but adults of a very much welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto. 2 we're speaking with our unique is, he's the founder of the greek whistle blower, charity and n g o. liberty of speech. are you thanks again for being with us or you recently hosted in international conference in greece, that included not only prominent whistle blowers from around the continent, but that also addressed issues that had here to, for never even been discussed at whistleblower events in greece. tell us about that and about what progress was made there was page fully initiated who we saw 1st

offers, but happy to be also international. and also against all odds. we had a low budget. we had the you follow me in collections 3 days before our conference and it must succeed way things. but what about a simply through a name, the global corruption and public integrity. the human factor, as we did it, he called at the rest and we say it was a ghost america. so young country and jacket, garrick, the president, the founder of the somebody, come into your trouble to greece with a girl sprint and legal expertise. human rights professor joe wage in order to present some finals and helped me for these call phones through. we also have this up for the principal for the speech, but as far enough from the greece report did united, national listen wish below network was for multiple jane toner. was one of many local organizations, specializing, done to corrupt support as accountability. most importantly,

we had the support of the critic justice department with the secretary general asked us keynote speaker. some of the topics where they could, exec single feller regarding the application of the direct tv as well as out a lot of me are still issues tools used against junior this to ask for level, it's a slap since we started to have the support of got you and, and freedom house with new support, those vine and some of that can be late speaking in the conference. we hosted, it's a topic and funnel with prominent activists. and what's the lowest discussing the topic of the human factor and what kind of stuff topic i do to help us with some learners. that's fantastic ari. i'm very interested in legislation as you know. back in 2015, i worked with blueprint for free speech to introduce a new whistle blower protection law in greece. it didn't pass as we had written it unfortunately, but a version of it did pass. more importantly, the european union decided to adopt our original version as a model for the entire

e you. it was one of the proudest events of my life. tell us what the situation is in greece right now. we still see quite unfortunately, pushed back from the parliament and especially from the conservative new democracy, government on whistleblower protections. why is that? why isn't this something on which everyone can agree? oh, so this the sufficiency of a complex issue, john goose is facing make demons. but political, ethical, judicial, and cultural, i mean the government's proud d, as in producing high volumes of investments and advertising every cover because i mean, well, at least on facebook, the corruption inspection face, in conjunction with an alarm is rising and living expenses, as well as high tech station next to keep people very unhappy. the fact that the market is up, the public sector is one of the largest in ju, replaced the country size. and in my opinion, the most corrupt is enough to be sending you. and, you know,

add while its purpose is to secure votes throughout the government of the favorites, and just before the elections, i'm talking about the public sector, as we know, it's not. yeah, all generations. so this is meant by the reluctance to promote and decor option policies, because most of the thrive are officially within the country. but it's economy supported cor, auction in the past, but the change it new generation of business mines are educated in adopting as universal e. you culture against corruption, as well as promoting sustainability models of support, things policy through government, accountability. and there were some blank concepts regarding culture based. if it is not for you to go consistency, governments come and go, lifting the funding down into the, in, in the financial crises, introducing higher tax. it's your expensive cost of leavings, lost a new corrupted and dysfunctional public sector. and that's in itself. many critics

would promote action patients themselves as well as corruption when it comes to increasing profits of the or on, or their own business, the north. this invites because it got the most game not to do so we just took over a year off of it, easy deadlines to implement into each national last the 2019 easy directly. so that was a drug addiction that it was a sloppy hospital that adopted absolutely. minimum standards was the ease you got into this member states, you extended directed to abroad, this call regarding corruption and probably disclosure at the place of work you mention stage. you asked him to do more. i think it needless to be for the right a for scott and g to inform that with some blood protection, often grease and a brief the body above the officials responsible for it. but i hope this will bust . it seems the decision, lots of interest for the patients themselves. we need a more active,

probably participation in this month. it included and yours. one of the problems lies with old fashion for the patients and conservative lawmakers stuck in the old ways when he's younger brains. in your experience, what is the state of whistleblower protection? elsewhere in europe, we hear horror stories, especially from the banking sector, whistle blowers, and especially in places like switzerland and france. and what have south africa? have there been any improvements there? should i think that there was some blood concept it's confusing in most the you countries they shared is how much the spot and see how little cor opposite with these are as well as how seriously using eliminating corruptions across the board to the main state members with a conflict of interest in national and those political obstacles, culture of a land which bears the box in the sector in the state, within the state. so kindly it is the last game when it comes to hold them

accountable for corruption within the bike and 6 to switzerland is nothing these you but france has an excuse in you pausing tough the united states and which banking sector. so how's it got? is that this lowest point at the moment when it comes to accountability corruption index, and what's the brand protection policies or vote versus a posted adage to the public counts or to promote public disclosures and what's a good prediction policies based on ferry and profit to get there is no effective mechanism to protect what's the blush and the farmers also have mentioned many times this stuff off the car is not stories for killing. it's a whistle. blowers are. you recently released that idea for an international whistleblower treaty or united nations official called it music to her ears. tell us about that and about its current status. just the idea came from on which the books finished off. the way i escaped without believe it was such a death in my gaze,

my letter on which subject and was lost in the story. what are you got lies that that kind of thing. so corrupt you that often there what's the gross i getting assessing to persecute or silence. i remembered how 3 weeks out was to hold your citizenship and 2 passports and escaped to a friendly country after my public disclosure. that's the escape line to make the difference between life and death. but other was to blush this topic. i did not have this option and paid with the lives. that's the idea off the international a treaty for some of those, as well as the issuing of an expedited to visa. what we should less than distance came to me. it is published on our website as well as the blueprints west website. in 2023, i was advising by check and garrick, the president of what was the best for america in your country. they use

a travel and present my paper on this idea to the united states. in fact, we engaged with congressional staffers with a capital and grocery gates further together. i think join now we also had a discussion out there was a blow for medical conference, workplace promising institutes in 2003 at the latest girlfriend, spastic on the 11th and 12th june, greece, i have the privilege to close that confidential introduction up a paper and a union senior officer lou support this was on the panel and commented that it was music and seniors have support and these and when gauge whiskey play as globally to promote as well as a fine day, dear. hopefully it will be my legacy in fucking a few days. i am 100 above the universe of your hasbrook is up to present my paper off the international treaty for august of last. i think i do me confidence hold on the 18th of july toppled, breaking the chain of corruption which blows us got at least for structural do. but

in south africa, you're not afraid of anybody are, you know, neither am i. that's right. are you because thank you very much. thank you. the basic reason for was the blowing is really quite simple. it's to expose non transparent and wrongful acts by those in power in order to enable reform. this china lights into dark places to expose waste, fraud, abuse, or illegality. whistle blowers therefore, must be appreciated. they must be protected and thanks for their courage and public service. that's usually not how it works out though. the road is much tougher than that. i'd like to think our get started to meet this for being with us today and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the list of lowers. i'm john kerry onto please follow me on subset at john kerry onto. we'll see you next time. 2 2

the in 1884, the german empire began its colonial invasion. internet may be from the very start . burling encourage the white calling is to settle in south west africa and take away the best land from the local drive. the germans were actively draining natural resources and using the local population as a cheap labor source. this was causing major protest and led to rebuild your in 19 o 4 here arrow and now my drive is rebuild against german colonial rule. kaiser wilhelm the 2nd was fully determined and ordered to suppress the rebellion with the

utmost severity against the inhabitants of nam may be germany through it's 50 in 1000 well equipped army. all around the country concentration camps were built in humane medical experiments over citizens were conducted within the period of 4 years. the german scaled up to 60000 people among weights. there were 80 percent of the here railroad tried and 50 percent of the number dr. the events in south west africa are called the 1st genocide of the 20th century, and not without reason are compared to the whole of cost just $2.00 decades later after the massacre in nam may be a hitler's the solve unit put on the same round, colonial uniform which puts the world into the chasm of the 2nd world war, the cause that one which the not to someone that just didn't want to say

i'm on this for the best interest you. i have to fall under the guise of evacuation about 50000 people were transported the the main purpose of this concentration camp in bella rose was too insane. prisoners was typhus and use them as a human shield against the advancing soviet on me. giving my own but silly for them to form. the problem is the best place to move in love with like you can put the shift on your step a, put a supervisor step. i don't want to bring your name the i'm so sorry i missed because on your certificate 6 to put your salary and that is a non sees use people, his biological weapons, leaving them to perish without food. was the most shelter the door of small enter from you for a deity. so create a new lives. i usually use more to the can you put the intrinsic nation? we're so it just put each each sure we have

a ship for them to move the cam gloucester 10 days or what else made it drastically defends from other camps of that the rice watch on t. the flushes defense ministry. safety of is looking to a queue, the most go up selves do thing as of a pulse of ukraine's plans nuclear publication, a much warmer germans. 5 people need to crate in poland into hoops over the terror attack on the notes. trained to pipelines, facing of the operation of that scale on sophistication, couldn't have happens without nato's the poles. and this is where it all came. true for indonesia, on august 17th, 1945 freedom from the dodge colony of rule and independence for the nation. indonesia, amongst 79 years of independence from dogs. colonial rule by officially in over