because obviously russia, i don't think, well what will allow, does, does, does, does actions yards wonder if, if there was some truth on the ground, wherever there are you crying that will be attacked, but by russia and the same goes for wisdom, ethel's involvement, now something like this was contemplated 2 years ago, but as you say, it says to have more precious power. i'm all home. i mean, does it have more purchase power and long uh, people at large and why would that be the case? because i mean, it's pretty clear that whatever west and think there is a strategy, a sort of the russian army 2 years ago. the presuppositions were defeated, the to say the least way. it certainly doesn't have in the purchasing public opinion in the west. the old, if the older public opinion died. so we have, you know, assistant, yes the, you know, pop popular opinions, moving in the direction of a why from one direction of peace in simple some kind of compromise based on what the nights. so particular western countries to do something recklessly introduced

you, it's okay to get more involved. right. and it could still be in a no most kind of like out this the popular opposition black. so that's certainly a restraining factor. so how strong are these voices in favor? of direct tensional it's, it's difficult to say, i mean, did that, does, sadly a lot of them at the moment, i mean, there are, there are concept their accounts voices and, but i, you know, i think, i think it was, we might assist a popup of this conflict from the point of view of the west proxy why russia has been a kind of, you know, assist an escalation, one escalation off to the other. so they've done it so often has almost become the actual so i think i, i will be be shocked by will be surprised if they types of escalators that do you take this escalation as i calculated tactic. in other words, when people uh, raise a bit and see it, do they actually understand? are they conscious of what they're doing and you know, they possible a reply from the i i think is it is partly um uh yeah,

calculated tactics box i guess also um, but if i had an emotional advice talk to because they talk themselves into a position but i basically sums that retro it, i really believe that if they lose, do you cry new for us, your wins and the ukraine is going to be the end of the western world as we now, you know, eventually they'd be to someone that won't know it won't know, it won't happen, and that's important that we don't to be done actually poly into that that, that disco. so no, no, do you train, you train? what would be a huge blow tonight? so as the west to west stage, it will be critical be cried before highs of prices rise enough, but no i, i think the west of all just we know at night. so we are the west and palace of i think what will remind unless the wall goes on. yes. and russia kind of tried saving multi p into frank rush. it comes to occupy the whole deep. right. and then to walk, continuation of yeah, in that kind of extreme situation. yeah. that, that then possibly we are looking at the

a much more kind of talk elliptic outcome. let's discuss something that you and the number of other western schoolers proposed recent fan data is a compromise to this war. in fact, you suggested in one of your recent articles that budget reports and can solve this more by negotiating a peace deal that includes ukraine's membership of mater. why do you believe that this proposal, which is the underlying premise for, for this call? so it has any complying power not only in moscow, but 1st and foremost in keys and in washington, the if the is going to be negotiated into the peace settlement. then you've got this going to be some kind of western security, a guarantee of what's left of the ukraine started off to the war, right? that's the 1st by the 2nd parties that night. so on the west of the politically and retire, there's hardly a what funded very, very difficult to difficult to back away from accepting you. trying into nathan members even even under conditions dictated by russia. that's the 2nd. and the 3rd

thing um yep. strategically having ukraine in they say what have advantages from the west, and by the view, it would mean that you know, your trade in lights, i was left of it west a new crime presumably what, what, what, what constitutes some kind of office on with russia. ok. this process would be the militarize zone that we know when they took bases, no nuclear weapons, all kind of restrictions. but nevertheless, you'd have an independence pro western nathan member viewpoint. actually the public folks that are real kinds of good reasons for so yeah, the west united states and i talked to it except such a deal. now it kept mentioning this phrase, ukraine or what's left of it. and i think that's the, you know, the, the crux of the problem and a number of russian analysts indirectly driven there because they claim that the, what's, what is now being decided on the battlefield is where the boundary between russian and west and security of parameter will lie, whether it's formal or informal,

and clearly a mosque was interested in pushing it further into ukraine. but i'm not sure it's wants to push it as far as, let's say, western ukraine of it. it's very hostile and add to russian population. now, based on history based on the current sentiments where addressing done boundary eclipse live organically for, if there is such a term as organic boundary between russia in the west. i think as of now the natural boundary would be um, acceptance by you cried in the west of russia, the corporation of crime it until the default before additional provinces about that. and why? that's the only option that leads to call and fost rush. why is that this guy rush, those, those territories apart also pop apart. that's all right in the house, you choose your. yeah. so that's that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's the minimum. how far you go beyond that?

yeah. it depends on, on the, on the war. ok. some people argue that, that maybe you should go as far as hawk gulf, as far as a desa problem with that is yes, that may will, in a way that may, will be a natural cause historical cultural political badly. but it will be enormously costly for russia to actually occupied, talk of down to the end, the end of the desa. okay. but the bottom line is, i, i don't see russia expanding any further into your cry, done under that in the book. now it also suggested that in the criminal of worth to contemplate such a concession ukraine, and it's watson, beckers would have to give the quote, cost iron commitments to ukraine's permanent demilitarization or beat within the framework of a nato membership. but 1st of all, i, i'm not sure of the russians believe in any degree of firmness, alpha, quote, unquote, the western commitments. but on top of that, you know,

demilitarized within the nature of framework, isn't it a bit like, i don't know, it's a writer with wipers, but well behaving. mice, i mean, like, uh, even if and ukraine is the militarized and like, it's not your claim that is a problem for russia. it's beta. what, what do i do there is of kind of press of this kind of green because it goes when um, east germany was united with west job then became a spell and you have the kind of 5 nights of the agreement was the friend at that point. of the tray that rush hour, so it's units based restaurants, but it's only the danger ensure but the pain was that there will be no nights or expansion in so we still nichols populate from nature nature. then expand the trees . joe, to very close expand it is the baltic states supposed to add another country? so for all precedents for the conditions on that one, on the, on the, on the on nights those night nitrogen expansion. yeah. now i think there is also a more recent precedent. that's the support, the your case, the case of char k, a number of russian leaders, including pointers himself said that having trick is

a part of nature is not that bad for russian because it contains that country, which is an actual competitor, original competitor for russia. and i can see that the logic being applied to your plan, but i struggled to understand why i would need to want uh, you know, drive aged, highly traumatized uh, very limply angry country or whatever left with as part of it. so no to realize the originally important point, the, you know, if you, for the russian polite view, it's not ukraine's membership. the site match at all. i have a match out. it was, it was the nighttime military built up in the use of ukraine as a tool was absolutely. so if you pray that was left, it becomes while the night talk to under different conditions, then it's not such a, it's not such a frightening development. and we asked a question about, you know, why should this issue a process of looking at the trust cost both ways, you know, this is trust issues on both sides. and the only way to,

to work through the issue is to actually mike mike, mike agreements and see what happens and try to make those agreements like the, you know, as the rest, as like to say, yeah, you know, trust, but very flaw with the i ask you about the slightly different aspect of it. why would may to want, i mean, i understand native logic of having ukraine as you know, sort of send me affiliated member of its alliance and using it as a sort of battering ram against pressure. but if they actually have to take responsibility for your cranes, you know, angry intentions for rebuilding it for even providing it with some infrastructure. why would they need and because they're losing all the benefits of their policy. i'm assuming all the cost high. i, i think for political reasons, i mean that that's what i'm up if they thought, yeah, my eyes. well, why do i could come forward with this suggestion that you, craig could become a member of nato under certain conditions that could be part of to the i was trying to think of a lie to police equally given the what the west,

the way out politically to back off from, for the forever war with russia for of abrupt proxy what that, but that was my kind of kind of reasoning. so i think, you know, yeah, it would be the know most kind of challenges and all of us from all kinds of dysfunction, i'm sure that we plan the voices that we'd like to assign a we shouldn't listen to this. but i think for political reasons, nights i would find it very different, very difficult to actually to have his back on your crime completely and forever. i refused to, to allow an instant into membership. yeah, quote processor over. so i hope you're right on that. but even though i'm, you know, to some extent it's uh, you know, facing the consequences of, of your own polio. yeah. like it's no, i'm not making a prediction error or prophecy. i'm not sure what's gonna happen if i gets, i'm likely. well i, i know what's gonna happen right now because we're going to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments extension the

keyboard. is it still frontier, but provide me with the visually they cheap the previous stores for dis understood care which for which you spend people with sure the ultimate is the florida savings, that plumber to be 2 or 3 minutes to connect for the shock. it does go to a bonus last or do they push you up with somebody who does she owns?

well yeah. is that audio still the the hello and welcome to cross the full board. here we discuss the wheel in the extra range of parts best. geoffrey roberts emeritus professor of history at university college park. now professor roberts, before the break,

we talked about the russian rationale and they just logic. let's talk about the brain right now. and i think that's a very interesting case study because it's hard to find another country, the size of your brain. that's what so eagerly assumed the role of a client's faith without the go shading any developmental a security guarantee as for itself. and i mean, even israel, for example, and other clients they is very showed about um, you know, ensuring its own base. but the frame sort of threw himself into the western embrace completely without the, you know, asking actually from watch how do you understand the calculus of kids here? yeah, i did it because this is the most difficult off at 6 most difficult for me. i mean for you to once, that is why you crime shows because it did add on what still chooses. you have to fight to a to fights on. it obviously is to do with the power of ukrainian nations and we

did the emotional power as well as the political 5 you for international. that'd be one say, i think secondly, there was this um, cuz fife belief in the west in western supposed 99 in western power so that i persuaded themselves that they could, they could, they could win this war in some, uh its in some form. okay. and now having tried that actually effectively last last the war that just um, they're just playing on and waiting for something, something some something to happen, something to, to turn up. but look, um yeah, i could probably talk about public opinion or opinion and you're trying to shift as well. well, the opinion dice i've seen is that there's a gradual shift towards the majority of the ukrainians leaving in the areas coverage occupied pop up by you guys who want a compromise space. i think secondly, you know, you know, d, ukrainian, the political studies normally 5 i yeah. that they're out there. all kind of

elements we've been established, or maybe on the fringes of it, who would be prepared to actually that the negotiated facing a for see piece of this is a basis is made the best solution for me right now. so give me a 9 to talk to, we'll be introduced aside. let's just have a personal question that have ukranian votes and your credit is a very interesting collective psych you to me because i think it's has both very large entitlement and a very large material or it's a complex. you mentioned the, you know, the power of its national is meant to me is a little bit like me there who is the right. it took you, it's on her own children because she didn't get something. and historically, i think this a few or a was channeled very conveniently on to russia. but once you clean becomes part of the west, aren't you concerned that they sort of, of the target of its blames? i'll shift of what you describe is actually quite a typical phenomenon of both state nationalism. and i know that ukraine is not

particularly small side based as the most i associate getting smaller the why is this most i associate to evaluate a big state? and quite often what, you know, what you, what you described this sense of a combination of in type since we talked about and inferior article, but very, very typical of the nationalism. um, oh oh, all of us, most i so you know like that, that's not the, that's not unusual, but many outer space. a sort of middle space like turkey is around even poland won't pull into a lesser extent, that they've been quite skilful in playing big powers against one another. and this is what i want to ask you about. because i think leadership or the cultivation of elisa is a very interesting subject because it takes time, it takes such a national hardship to produce the kinds of leads cool understanding they've dynamic, psychological and developmental dynamics of that population. but also whereas we

enough to position the country within the regional and global context to go printers benefits for, for the people. yeah. but that's, that's what happened for you. cried wall thoughtful. so for uh, you know, for the 1st 25 years of independent crime, that's exactly the guiding you cried like really yes, absolutely. until until 2014, when you get this definitive kind of split upon a few crime ups definitively for the west. and that's when we don't hear back professor roberts, i think you're going to have some of the best conditions, post soviet collapse. they had some of the best economies. they had pretty wide industrial base. they have a, you know, with land. they have a lot of people, they have big, good graces of the west. they also have the good have the good, the basis of pressure because russian was eager to keep them within the if not within the, within the it's or the done it within its economic uh, environments. and yeah, they seem to waste it all on the some, you know, done something that, that, that, the, them,

that those i'd love corruption and also that they also kind of hide the provisions . if the political divisions been di, what that meant was to be a crime, never transitioned out of the ninety's, the kind of coyote politics or not is continued or the old away for the articles to go see the new crime that i never had a breach. and tracy come and pick some stability is the power old site that you know, some old on patrol and some, and some direct is a very unfortunate success, so concisely. right. but going back to a point where i think that once to will, if was i was to was either, if you have was left of your train, becomes part of the west and sub for which is already about the west. and that's all kinds of jobs. i've reviewed crime music, i kinda got upset on the west of that point that they're going to have a very, very different view and feeding tools to west when they see what has happened to the country that they have the full this proxy will on the other on the all post on

the off was and i've stuff to shoot kind of troll the shoes, the damage issues last a lot. i'm actually, i don't say they're going to play rush from the russians like that. they going to blame that the so called wisdom knowledge in order to be a self sufficient country. they have to accept the, you know, for me, once blame on, on you for me twice blame on me. i mean, the sooner or later they will have to extend our own responsibility for that whole investigate destiny and you know, also develop some acumen and shrewdness in dealing with the nature of that. but do you see developing i, i'm, i may be maybe not, i'm not sure i pull up to, to be a self sufficient country of any kind of life. some of the people in the western alliance. yeah. but, but they oh, shoot for you to be an independent cut. they need, they need very at least they need to keep a desk, or at least access to a desk probably knows, need to symbolic races. they need to keep hawk on this. well, the for most go now in the quantity of whatever the distance that i think that you

know that they're not there yet. but the prospect of a major military, the faithful, or your training metrics labs, which get a fraction, a russian taken of a desperate hawk. i was, was all part of the rest of some of these new friends that actually might shop to mean to actually come into the senses and to enter in a make. i'm making the data right. and i give, can you just give me up on this more? right. i'm making the necessary concessions a, to the restaurant we are very, are very good and nice. thank historical argument. because historically, russians have, i said, have had the foresight of how you should treat your enemies in order to create, you know, conditions for loss and peace. it was the case both with the french and the, you know, with the germans as well. i seen that's something that the, i think that's another very important part combined inside the, the kind of argument behind on putting that, you know,

that russia should make this a very she was procession of allowing ukraine or poppy trying to become become a member. and i to understand conditions is because i still russia want, has a wants to, has the been having an attitude for you, you probably know ukrainians as, as, as, as a people. and if that actually truth holds, fletcher wants to reconstruct his relations with you cried new state, i would do you pride him a people on a collaborative friend friendship. i re recreate some com, some a bunch of neighborhoods that anything, any type of us, anything got you though like that then that, that, that then i need to, they need to give something to you crying like symbolically. yes, he is quite different saying i remember hear you say they need to give something to credit and like made a membership. and what i'm arguing for is that they have to consciously or recognize ukrainian dignity. and that's if the ukrainian state is to exist as a space, not just as a song fragment of made up, but as

a stain that has some potential for self sufficiency band. if it needs such a geographic. oh, by says that i have the impression that the list, the majority of russian public opinion and political repeatedly available, it would be on that page at okay. the minority of the russian nationalist suits the world once it got thoughts of of that. but i think that's with that, that's where the sentiment is. michael's essential, that's one thing, strategy and politics. it is an over on the russia boots in the paper, russian, people today. and i'm going to come today to, i think we try to get a compromise the russia secure, but it's not good that we came to that because it's not just about the ukraine. i mean, for us to either to rush, i kind of have a ukrainian sensibilities at the top of its had bigger. at the end of the day, we're all talking about the time of european, secure, just structure. tell you written about it. and you said that is uh, the last thing, settlement of this conflict with the require creating a system that would contain rather than incubate conflicts. and i think the

russians and did that best trying to negotiate some way out of their predicament with nato. they weren't successful. washington said no. is there anything possibly that's good. the 1st way to change is perspective. i thought i do, i think the war. yeah. but you ukraine in the west, if the in the war this get my effects you're trying to and that perspective on the basis of yeah, you crying can become part of nights also conditions. but that would need to be an overarching framework of common european security to act as a consignment with that as a 1st. i thought a guarantee. definitely, you know, it's a full size. yeah, i mean, you know, the russians actually did not russian for the summers before the, i think actually been fine since the 19th to stretchy, to create collective therapy and collect the security structures including the soviet union into, including in russia. but i've always got stumbled against the fundamental fact that

the in the west rosters be seen as a reliable than that. and when the apartment and i am afraid and is quite track of these types and it may actually take this will this tragic war. so actually arrive a situation where there can be some kind of sensible negotiation about career gracing. come a common security. suffice for professor robinson. this is going to be my last question for that to happen. what the west will have to parts with is the idea of that. you know, it controls events into world economics, idea, logical, cultural, everything else. and there is an opinion in russia, that's what russians are fighting against here. it is not just the, you know, part of europe and secure destructor that fighting and goes 500 years of western dominance, which is 1st and foremost based on the western military dominance and the wisdom both the soviet union in the 20th century. and i think russian more recently has managed to not necessarily arrival, but at least undermine if the west agrees to any sort of negotiations with

russia. what does that effect and we mean that it's me over the world. the shutter is, i mean like the, it will have to you right off i, i, that's a lot to me. so that's what you, that's what the point you just make. and it brings us back to the point that you're beginning of the, the discussion. why? when you also, we, i, those of the situation to take the most and it's, it's dangerous is, gets even more multi. just let me find a way to get through both tags. because in the west or at least a substantial since section of the west is not prepared to give up on that self image of it itself on western new jermel, it's not always the self image it say we, i know i always turn the superiority. it's a constructive less got on you crying just being there any exist to ensure that match or the if the, if you grade lose is the night to lose, you knew right. then you're going to lose that on the nation. the dad, germany on the west, a place of the world. and that's why the advertising, the most extreme measures to above a that they did back up so,

so that's when it comes down to it. now, the fundamental obviously cool that you know to any, the swell of thousands liable, rochelle, with booty to what it might do it lies with, with the west. and what is it actually capable of, of trying to use fundamental welfare. any septic for septic, it's a different, a different set of relationship with the prime of prussia and in europe as a whole movement. and i would add to that, that ultimately what the west as the fighting against is not the russian. it's fighting history and history. it has certain objective trends saying that even, you know, the west can know it's and again, but the, let's leave it for some other time. it's special, great talking to you again. thank you. thanks very much. thank you for watching hope to hear again on was a part of the the,

on the line, scott bennett, i'm former united states army psychological warfare officer, really served in the state department counterterrorism office under investor del daily the . so i wanted to come here to russia in the dawn bass area and to gather the facts, to take back to the american people, the

hold on bass as the front lines and the square, the bombs and the bullets are raging. this is where people are dying. this is where the buildings are exploding the all. i wanted to see 1st hand the scars of war. the cause i don't watch a lot. so someone that just didn't want the family. this particular moisture face issue i have to fall under the guise of evacuation about 50000 people were transported. the, the main purpose of this concentration camp in bella rows was to in think,

prisoners was time for us and use them as a human shield against the advancing soviet, on a given mind of the size of 0. but 0 isn't slipping to phone. you put them in the, in the plugin for the ship that you're shipping and stuff like that, but don't want to bring your name. you know, i'm so sorry i missed because on your certificate 6 to put your side and that is a c c, 's use people as biological weapons leading them to perish without food. was that little shelter? the do of small it there for me, if i did think so, could anything who lives i knew you should be smart to can you could uh you can use your windows or just put an easy issue really strip for them to move the cam gloucester 10 days or what else made it drastically defense from other camps of that the rice watch on t the

a lot it may appear to arrives as a by john for a 2 days state and visit to discuss the biological partnerships on regional issues covers less than the cracks down on believe was an archbishop of wonderful football team to all this charge is the kansas. the west tells by seeing the pacification of christians in ukraine as, as kids look set to out little the nations or federal job as indonesia celebration 79 years of independence from touch me as people pull onto the streets in front of the are to palestine. judging the while to right now for all color and yellow and you called the disney is peeled and strive to it.