general health and stone less capable and started to retreat. only a few out of the $16000.00 invaders who had begun their march from couple made it to the british position in general about the defeat of the royal army caused a norm is damaged to the prestige of the british empire throughout the world. the victory of the afghan people became the most important events in the history of the oppressed peoples resistance to the colonialists. it just failed the res. estimate of the european invincibility. the water is part of the valuable postcard isn't the deepest view of us and bidding the word. but is it something deeper, more complex might be present good. let's stop without cases. let's go out of

the hello and welcome to cross topic. were all things are considered on peter live out? we're told us president joe buying does not want to stand off with russia over ukraine to trigger a global war. the evidence suggests just the opposite. nature now uses ukraine to attack russia, have no doubts. russia will respond a cross talking nato. i'm joined by my guess, dimitri lot scholars in athens. he's

a lawyer and the freelance journalist involved we have carlos out. he is a political analyst historian and host of the silk and steel pod cast and invasion . we cross through she, when she is a international affairs commentator as well as a cvt and radio reporter. alright, costs up rolls and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want and i always appreciate it. all right, let me go to your 1st and volley of far from the fray and ukraine. here. i mean, it's really quite remarkable. we have this new phrase now adapt in a just, that's what nato is doing right now. when it comes to arming ukraine, except for now, oh, you can use nato equipment to ship just a little bit into russian's territory, which of course we've been doing for over a year now. but now that's part of their adapt. and it just means this is the path to war, and it's a nato war against russia. they can no longer say they're not part of the conflict . they've been part of the conflict from day one. is there a matter of fact, they started this complex, go ahead carl. it was this,

the nato is losing its proxy war against russia. right now, is our scrambling, trying to do whatever they can try to salvage the situation? um, so is there a certain did not have to be more upfront in about 3 involvement. but, you know, politicians in washington have been very explicit. we say this is a war. this is a proxy words are fighting russians using the ukranian. they're fighting russia to the last ukrainians. this has always been their policy. while it's very interesting, let's go to our guest in beijing. we keep hearing about ukraine has the right to self defense. well, it's a solver and country. of course, it has the right to self defense, but nato's approach to this conflict his proxy wars, karl's pointed out here, russia is not allowed to have the idea of self defense. so you have american weapons in ukraine going into russia. it's killing civilians because it's a primarily what they've done so far. and russia is war not to react with. this is

not how it works. russia will obviously react, and it is a rush has already warned the west that it will go ahead invasion. you're right here actually as press them to, teen says, brisk monthly. is the nato and the also or us let's nato on eases is a restriction for ukraine to use lessons weapons there. there won't be serious consequence on that. and actually, um we know that so um uh, just uh, as you mentioned that the beginning that lincoln said that the us position was the hallmark of the by them. and this patients stands on ukraine to adapt and adjust as needed. so we can see that the u. s. policy is foreign policy has been changing time over time, and it's always contradicts itself. and it's also more interesting is that person

by then i said he will not attend. the upcoming summit is, was a land despite the lensky is urging by them to go, but instead of the biden is sending his vice president her us to be the or so i think it's, it's some kind of ironic to see that the us approves you. chris ukraine's you solve on the west and supplied weapons, russia, which was indeed to escalate the conflict in the region. and so, so i'm highly doubtful about the upcoming re, uh, results of the peaceful. yeah, i want to talk about that in the 2nd part of the program. dimitry. i mean, again, you know, i adapt in a chest. i mean, this is a farce. i mean, the goal is always been nothing to do with ukraine. it's about to inflict a strategic defeat on russia. this has been the policy from the get go now saying, allowing the ukrainians to use these weapons to shoot missiles and drones into

russia. it's some ne toe forces that are the command and control of those missiles and drones. these are americans and europeans making the targeting ordinance and everything else related to firing these arms. i mean, this is absolutely a farce. and of course, zalinski whose name is already been mentioned here. he wants this, he wants nato to go to war, to over it for his country. and this is something that the united states and nato seemed to be quite willing to go and proceed. go ahead, dimitri, as well, the targeting, which is clearly coming from american military personnel because you've trained, doesn't have the capacity to do that. the manufacturer of the weapons and switches clearly coming from the united states and united states doesn't even deny that is only part of the story. in addition,

you have us military personnel. they may not be formally designated as active members of the military, although some of them are, if they've been trained by the us military and other western powers, fighting alongside the opinions on the front line. you have the training. again, this is not being denied tens of thousands of ukrainian soldiers trained to native standards, whatever that means by the admission of western governments. you have that as a say, an economic work that was being waged on. we're sure, again, the western powers were not denied this and were openly bragging about the economic warfare the wage. and there's been a disaster in every conceivable respect. this has been a war binding to against russia, and that has been cleared from the outset. and this whole non sense that uh, this is simply a ukrainian war with the support of nato. it's something that we ought to have seen 3 months ago. this phrase, by the way, adapt and the just, it's a relative phrase. it begs the question of what are the adapting and adjusting to

yep. what the ducting that adjusting to is a crushing loss on the printing battlefield. so they're responding bite to this crushing loss which they've now realized they cannot avoid by taking the fight. we're trying to, in deep into the territory of russia with the, for rent this consequences that potentially entails. so people need to wake up and listen to the french anthropologist emmanuel todd who offered a book recently which said, which was titled, world war 3 has begun. it has folks, yes i, i've done a program on that dimitry. we are in the, in world war 3 right now and we get, you actually talk maybe another program about how the different blocks are lining up. i agree with that completely. you know, car of the, this, this whole a adapt in a just, i mean, is giving the, the green light then this is all the public relations been here for ukraine to do that. of course. so it's nato. that's going to be doing that in ukraine and outside of ukraine, quite possibly. but that doesn't change the conditions of the battlefield in

ukraine. you could take out a refinery in russia, but it's not going to change the course of the conflict and ukraine. again, this has nothing to do with ukraine. what it has to do is, is to push russia into a much more aggressive posture. that's what they want. and they'll site see that guy started it. that's exactly what they're trying to do, carl. and that's exactly what they're trying to do. the, whatever they do, you know, strike is deeper into russia. that's not going to have any material of effect on the outcome of the work in ukraine. because right now russia is having the upper hand on the battlefields. no matter what, whatever this i just adjustment nato is making, is not making a difference. all you does is to make the russian public to rally more solidly behind, present food and in its special military operation. ukraine as so i don't. right,

it's, it's written, this is really a lot, very desperate. last ditch effort by the nato alliance to salvage. it's, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a face saving operation now. well, i mean carl, i mean i, i use the metaphor, a face saving, but essentially what they're going to get is a go on their face, which really bothers me here. let's go back to our guest in beijing because the more nato loses in the more at deploys and losing strategy. the more aggressive the nato alliance is going to become because they do, they do not want to lose faith. they are the ones that are saying, if we lose in ukraine, russian tanks, we're all into paris or to the, to the english channel, which is absolutely absurd. even american and british intelligence have agreed with that. but that's not the public relations when the problem here is that we're having to contend with a public relations campaign from the west and not about realities on the ground. go ahead and vision. you're right, peter. actually,

if you look at the utah uh about over 99 percent of those supplies, whether it be military supply, initial supply or from in many terry and age to ukraine, came from nato and to us. so if they're not peering those weapons to ukraine, this conflict could have, i mean, see a result and at least have a back to the negotiation table earlier than what we're seeing today. and you're right. we are seeing that are the mainstream media in the glass to have being not very so i'll say balanced when it comes to is reports on the rush or you crank conflict and i just, i think that's why it's important for us to have this conversation. now, and to talk about like we, we don't, we, we don't, we no longer need, you know, like the ease restrictions on the estimate that post to you pray. and what's more

interesting is that if you have um, if you could recall that for many times we hear us officials are saying a washington well finds onto the last of the ukrainian it's right. so that's very, yeah, that's very erotic because is there notes by t on till the last of america or the last off the you are appeals, they're fighting on to the last of the well entry. and so, and plus, you know, they're making a lot of money in the process. okay, that the profit motive is in play here. you know, demetrius, they keep saying they want to, you know, buy, adapting, and adjusting to improve ukraine's position at the negotiating table. well, number one, there is no negotiating table, no one is invited, rush into it, and the longer they do this, the smaller ukraine get. so what is improving their position? go ahead, dmitri, as well, the so called any, any so called peace conference that doesn't include your adversary is not a conference, a piece of the conference of war. what they're trying to do,

obviously, for those of us who are saying and the check to is marshall more support, to put pressure on russia, to capitulate. and the terms that the lensky has articulated from the outset, are precisely that there are complete and utter capitulation, which takes no account of the legitimate grievances of russia. it takes no account of the crew in 2014. it takes no account of the human rights abuses of the russian speakers in the dawn bass. it takes no account of the assurances that were given at border shots that neither would not expand one inch eastward. it gives no account to russia's legitimate concerns about nato nuclear tipped missiles, just a few 100 miles from moscow on ukrainian territory. this is a demand for capitulation to demand and capitulation. and that's why so many major countries are not going to participate here. we're just going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on nato safe with the

beautiful sun soaked vineyards and nestled among some rest. picking the rolling hills, as a gentle breeze comes off of the surrounding sea comic imagery of french wine country. but this is not france. we are in a coupon at russia on the black sea, where recently they've got a serious about making some world class. one is the charge that makes you know, i'm not going to listen to you. if you care about me. if you care about the play. i

wish somebody could just tell me why this square herald patriot lynching beating poverty, why supremacy is just the disgusting amber. the people of mississippi voted on a flyer and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the current. why our purposes to this in the name of the confederates. so because of these monuments that you see are required or not, can they're not monuments to the confederate government. they're monuments to the, to the soldiers, to the batteries. you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything the welcome make across stock. were all things are considered. i'm curious about your mind, you were discussing nato,

the . okay, let's go back to carl and volley. you know, we've already mentioned this ridiculous peace conference, so called peace conference, that will be held this month from the 15 to the 18th in switzerland. it's with the oddity of it all is that we have a, a piece proposal from the chinese. we have one from africa. i think the, even the pope, even the prophecy weighed in there's, there's a lot of piece plans out there. if you look at the, the, the demands that the russia sent out in december of 2021 to nato, into the united states about, um, securing a new security architecture in europe. those that is actually part of the process. but they're all ignored. that's a long introduction, carl, the saying, the west has no idea about how to bring peace. all they do is know how to keep the war going on. that's. that's obviously true from their policies over 2 years. go

ahead. that has been in the west has so much hubris that he did. it denies the rush, they even have legitimate security interest president put and it has made it very clear call back in 2000 no 7 unix security conference or the word the west that they could no longer make a mockery of russian security interest and re neck on their promises for ever, and now we have witnessed what happened. well, but what, what we're witnessing right now is the, the nato establishment itself is inc, still in denial, in our total failure to degrade russia's capability on the, on the battlefield. ringback the ukrainian manpower is being depleted. russia has the issue, russia has the upper hand, and this is why they have to act. they have to, there's a natal forces have to be more upfront about 30 involvement because then ukrainians

are not holding up. ready uh, holding up their, their line against russian offensive right now. well, you know, it is, um, when in beijing the, the, the chinese proposal is probably the most balanced of them all. okay. it, it, it, it talks about in terms of how to get to an end game. every country should have secure borders there, so sovereignty should be respected. those are the details, but that's a good way to start. that's how you start the negotiation process. and what we have with this zelinski piece plan, so called, which was probably drafted in london or in a, in washington d. c is basically say russia, you must admit defeat. ok. you, you should a surrender to, to, to the 1st ukrainian tank. you see, i mean that's not how it works. it's, this is like, there's no imagination and when it comes to diplomacy in the west anymore,

of your rights, peter actually, you know, at the past us or atlanta, um the, uh, the assignments in singapore. so let's be, he was so choosing, trying out for now, taking his sides, actually, i'm trying to, there's no such a thing as trying to is pressuring other nations now to attend the p summit in space. atlanta, north. it is helping brush out to disrupt the summit. in fact, as you mentioned, that china's position on the rush, how you create conflict has been very consistent and it does not target any specific party. and searchlight does know to post assignments. in fact, as the motions turn to us position on those, i would say a counselor to remains the house of 2 or 3 important elements in china as perspective that a successful piece. um, it should have the 1st as that's the recommendation of a,

from both russia and ukraine. the 2nd does that equal participation of both parties . and the last is that a fair discussion all possible peaceful tense. however, if we look at the situation now, obviously the upcoming summit in space of land has not met these 3 important criterias on 1st, the summit was not recognized by russia. the 2nd on this time a did not invite russia and 3rd law of the most important players in this conflict was not invited to the table. how can we guarantee the are going to be an open dialogue to ensure a possible peaceful, you know, a plan coming all the help this on that? so i think that's those 6, the most important reason why china is now participating because china believes that so a peaceful conference, i mean the carmen's, the upcoming peace conference, individual loans kind of sharply plague a substantive role to resolve the issue. me or i think it's important to point out

that so not participating into the assignment does not mean china does not support piece and for search. and they shows or participate into the assignment. does not mean they are genuinely supporting piece. because, i mean, trying to just does not want to see that the upcoming summit to become a platform, to support, you know, confrontation among cans or, you know, all it's going to be, is a p r spun for nato. that, that's it. and, and their academy, and they're going to have their, i, a list, or out as a lensky who's legitimacy is quite dubious at this point in time and violating the, the constitution of ukraine. you know, dimitri, what i worry about. and i've worried about since the 1st day of this conflict and i, i, i know i cited on this program eventually we will get to an article 5 crisis. i

believe that now more than ever your thoughts. yes, i think we are typically heading that direction because rush will be less than all the alternative that's already so there that it's going to have to strike military assets in western in, in central or western europe. i think that's quite clear. for example, there's a large staging area in poland from which a number of these weapons, a lot of training and a lot of intelligence is gathered. this is under international law. clearly a legitimate target in russia has refrained from striking it for months. but it's very clear that it will have no alternative and they keep attacking military targets deeper and deeper interaction to click. the key question, of course, is going to be, as russia has said, explicitly, how will the united states respond when russia inevitably attacks? one of these european, legitimate military targets, if the people of the united states have their way, the united states will stay out of it. but the product, but the problem here and those of us who live, you know, have

a front row view of what goes on united states as i do because i spend a lot of my time in canada is that the united states political lead doesn't care what the people want, it couldn't care less about the interest of americans as the americans had their way. uh, there would be a lot less military spending, and these wars of aggression would never have happened. so this is the real danger is that the us politically will respond to the article 5 call from europe that will inevitably come despite the demands of the populace to refrain from world war 3 in its hottest phase. we're already in a low intensity world where 3 is we talked about peter, but we're heading to the heart is night. i suspect we're going to end up in a full blown conflagration and i hope very much that i'm wrong. well, i hope you're wrong, and i hope i'm wrong. but it, carl, there's a certain logic of this. one of the, the biggest problems that we've faced in this conflict is the idea of deterrence has been so degraded by the west. see if, if you want to have the idea of a mutual assured destruction deterrence,

both parties have to believe in that theory. that's how we got through the cold war . but we have one party now that is throwing that to the side, rushes saying we will have to deter this type of a salt on those. but the west doesn't speaking that him anymore. and that's why everything is becoming extremely unstable. because if you have long range missiles or f sixteens, okay, and they leave a, a, a base in poland and they're on a mission. russia is not going to know if they have nucular taped missile or not. you don't take those kinds of chances. what you do is say, if we say a plane like that, it's going to be destroyed and they're going to say it upfront. and then you know what they're going to say carl. the russians are bluffing. russians don't bluff, they act carl. so western politicians are playing a very dangerous game of chickens right now, and i very much hope dimitry is wrong,

even though i very much respect his analysis. you know, during the cold war nixon have pioneers, the so called magnet theory, where east to west x likes a complete cycle. the other side will back down this. this was work we, sylvia union by today's russia is quite different. political entity, phung, soviet union of yesteryear. mr. putting has shown that he will not risk. he will not spend dollars from dreadful needle. and so we're going to see we're going to see user a. nato will be called always on bluff or we'll have room were stories for the sake of everyone here i hope demetrius wrong. there the hope of that those, the natal bloss will because they will back down and that i think alternately, people work in the military industrial complex in uh, in washington they, there altima the game is to lining their own pocket. how well, i mean,

what i call you're on to something with what they, what like, like is threats. they need a threat, inflation, i think. but if you go to the wall, then you lose your business model. okay. i mean that, that's kind of, you know, that's kind of the logic of it all here. when in, in, in beijing, i suppose china is watching all of this very, very closely. because the, the, what the americans would like is a nato in, in asia, in the pacific. and we know what targets they have. it is tie one here. so i hope that the, the folks in beijing are learning from the dirty tricks from the west. you know, you're right with, you know, many times people who compare like the case happened, the crane with taiwan. but the thing is, taiwan is totally different because it's now the country is not like you crank type was part of china and to, that's been great by most of the countries in the world. and also by the us. us of greece was the one china principal, but the, but without i, i agree with you dear,

but they don't act that way. they don't act is a big part of the same kind of just typical us. foreign policy is this one thing, but as another southern china is fully throughout that and trying to, well, i mean, the remaining is consistent foreign policy on tie one. and i think the world agree was even the un like in the past. the world health or event that you wouldn't recognize china is the only legal country in the u. n. so i think that the, the global and community support stats. yeah. but, you know, unfortunately we've seen the united states and its relationship with china throwaway. just about every important bilateral agreement going from the, the point of breaking diplomatic relations. and so we see a templates in europe and we see a template in asia. and what it's called is the rules based order. and when you

hear the rules space order, you should be afraid as all the time we have. i want to take my guess in athens, bali and of course in beijing. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time and remember cross stop the the, the water is a part of it that the employee would post isn't the deepest view of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present there. let's stop without cases. let's go out of

the hollywood. welcome. now i was going to dream live for dreams. come true. we have approximately 10000000 people in california that are risk of becoming on house. looks good man. pulls up somebody for working to pretty jobs. and still not enough because of the cost of living also has increased the coal bags and then still by chance, last year long the amount of, of homeless rose by 12 percent in california of the

across the headlines here when i say nearly 5000 ukranian troops are killed in f fielding colors and the russians quoted, a region we visit one of the settlements with the forces found themselves in the process, the premiums they have been using little that 5 power to hits a strictly civilian area. this is one of the cluster munitions that did not explode india's prime minister in the range remote area arriving to to yeah, of off the visiting wall. so did you hopes to find a road about foot piece timothy, ukrainian conflict quote. it gets on historical level, both repression. the russian orthodox church slams. you praying this decision to bind the canonical alt. i'll charge an entre.