the, the, the boeing jockeys every year with airbus to see which company will be the biggest airplane manufacturer in the world. for many years, decades even there was no positive. it was both. but for at least the last decade, the american manufacturing giant has cut corners to cut costs. it's for sake and

safety in the name of profit and dozens of whistle blowers have come forward with documents. and with 1st 10 testimony to give us the details. why then, is there still no real oversight of the company? and why is the department of justice given boeing a sweetheart deal in a criminal case? i'm john curiosity. welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 boeing is legal and safety problems have been absolutely notorious for at least the past 5 years. the crashes of 2, boeing 737 max a jets in 20192020 in ethiopia, and indonesia respectively killed 346 people. and these crashes were attributed to software malfunctions that the company knew about, and chose not to fix

a subsequent whistle blower ports on safety. problems with parts manufactured by boeing and by its partner companies and subsidiaries made the problem even worse. and still more with the blower, complaints told us that when inspectors pointed out manufacturing problems, they were told to simply overlook them. that made the situation worse yet. at one point, the federal aviation administration warrant quote, we're not going safety department on quote, indicating that it was up to the company to police itself. and that it was failing at the task. the company got even worse press when one was the blower who had testified in a lawsuit against the company and was preparing to give a 2nd deposition, killed himself before he could even offer that testimony. in the meantime, air bus sales pulled ahead of boeing strongly and even the wall street journal wondered, in print, if perhaps boeing was maybe better suited to be a defense contractor, rather than the builder of civilian aircraft. the question was most likely

rhetorical, but boeing now makes more money from the pentagon and it does selling passenger jets. something at the company has to give. our next guest is perfectly suited to walk us through this complicated situation. captain dennis page or has been a pilot for more than 36 years, starting with service in the us air force flying the k. c $135.00 our that's the boeing 7, a 7 to include deployments in operation desert storm. he's been with american airlines for 30 years and is currently a boeing 737 captain. he's also the communications chair and spokesperson and investor relations committee chair for the allied pilots association. that's the union that represents 15000 american airlines pilots. he's been featured in 11 documentaries and dozens of media stories on the boeing 737 next tragedies. he continues his work on behalf of the allied pilots association on important safety

issues to this day, including post pandemic flight to ensure that proper training and safety standards are not overcome by commercial interest. dennis, thank you so much for being with us. i can't think of a more qualified person with whom to have this conversation. thank you. it's great to be with you. after that is for many years boeing was the go to plane manufacturer for much of the world. global airlines for decades have used the 737 as their workforce planes before that it was the 707 and the 727. even the $747.00 were for decades, was the long haul plan of choice. when did that change, and in your opinion, why did it change? well, it started to change probably about 20 years ago, but no one knew about it. this, this failing a boeing didn't just happen over night. it was marked with the tragedies of 2

airplane crashes due to. ready bad design on the 737 max airplane. i fly and that got resolved, fix, designed to wait should have been designed in the beginning. they told the pilots, previously they didn't tell us anything about it. and boeing actually tried to blame pilots for not rescuing them from their failed engineering malady here on the max, but they got resolved and we thought, you know what, now this airplanes line boeing probably learned it's less than it's got its act together. and then we learned that we watch the door blow off the alaska $737.00 max. and that blue, the doors off boeing again. and it revealed to us that they weren't changing anything. as someone recently said boeing had changed just enough to remain the same. and even the federal government, which by law was test to do an overview. ready an expert panel was it was called

on where boeing had change since the 2 crashes. it released this report just coincidentally, within the timeframe just after the alaska accident. and it revealed exactly what we had suspected. and that is that boeing had changed a little, but not very much in, in formal writing and of bipartisan or unbiased. expert panel a group determine that boeing hadn't really done much. so it was a to, it's tough. you know, you had somebody that your trusted with your life as matter fact, you mentioned several air planes that boeing is built, the foundation of global aviation, one of them you didn't mention was a boeing 707. i started on that in the military. i flew that aircraft income that i pushed it to the edge. it saved my life and my crews live. it protected us from

the enemy outside the airplane. now i feel like the enemy is within the airplane. that's a really tough, a split of medicine to swallow. here, but we're not gonna lead boeing off the hook. they said they were going to do better last time and they didn't. the f a, a stepped up their game, their boots on the ground, and that's great. but they have a limited amount of people and there are thousands of workers and processes at boeing. so this is going to take more than words and boeing is getting the words right now. for the most part. but we've heard words before. we've got to see the actions in 2019, in 2020. we saw these 2 are risk crashes that you mentioned in ethiopia. and indonesia that resulted in the depths of 346 people. subsequent investigations showed that these crashes were caused by software glitches that made the planes not pilot will. in fact, we know from the black boxes retrieved after the crashes that the pilots spot until

the last 2nd to try to re take control of the planes. but the company knew that this software was a problem. why didn't they fix it when they had the opportunity money? they are focused on profits. it was fully disclose congressional investigation, the documents, the emails, their, their nightmarish, it fully disclose. the conspiracy within boeing to do all things that are necessary to prevent the trigger of pilot training. it was right on down to that system. you spoke of this called m cas maneuvering. characteristic argumentation system was put on your plan because a stretch this thing out. they, they, they ran a $737.00 to it's max upon intended. and the aircraft didn't perform the same way. so by, as a standards for a pilot to not have to go through re training,

they had to make the airplane feel just like the previous model. so it's kind of a cloaking device one that if it's designed properly and pilots are aware of it. and if some bad data comes in, it doesn't go wild and comes out of its cage. a monster being released from its gauge was kind of all work like they do now. but what boeing had with the evidence is clear and you don't have to be an engineer or a lawyer or pilots understand it. you can read these e mails. it said, let's not talk about m cast externally at all. do not speak of it out of concern that it might trigger pilot training and who would make that call the say? so they started hiding things when the say it was so bad that they actually requested to the f a a they had inserted some information on m cas, there's an email that says, hey, i thought we agreed we're going to pull the system m cash out of the pilot manual.

um i'm not exaggerating here. oh, so that's the exact evidence. so they, they tried the c o at the time, who was fired during these these are this debacle. um, you know, claim there was a chain of events. they were behind closed doors, suggesting just like you stated that you know what it was the pilots and what better place to late on in their xena phobic way of doing business, then a blame it on foreign pilots. we've learned from myriad boeing, whistle blowers that there are serious and ongoing problems at every level of the manufacturing process, not just in the company itself, but also in its contractors and sub contractors. these whistle blowers have told us that rather than demand that the problems be fixed. the company, in some cases, just hire new inspectors and instructed them to overlook the problems or decided that the problems that were being pointed out just weren't important enough to fix

. and then a door plug, just lows out in mid air on a boeing $737.00 and almost sucks out a 16 year old passenger is actually ripped his shirt off and sucked the shirt out of the hole. how could this have been allowed to happen when the company knew in advance about these manufacturing problems? well, they knew about it, but they didn't do anything about it. and they, they, they made this the theater. busy you know, all as well. we've got this going. one behind closed doors and those doors weren't so close. so we had these hero whistle blowers that have come out and disclose this to the, to the world even before the door blew off the last. and by the way, the door blew off alaska because 4 boats were not installed. you don't have to be an engineer pilot or anybody in particular understand that if you have 4 bolts that should be on a door and they're not there at some point in time, something bad is going to happen. and boeing is even further disclosed that yeah,

we didn't have paperwork on as we don't even know where it happened or who, who created that problem. and that's the question of finding the work, or it's a question of calling to question the system that allows you such a, a uh, uh, consequential process where lives are on the line. where for both missing can mean the difference of life and death. and you don't have a process in a paper work in a discipline. i think people would be pretty impressed and, and mildly surprised at how detail this like us a room or surgery is being conducted. it's very calm. it's very process lading. and anyone who does not abide by the procedures and the techniques and the policy in that surgery room is called a question immediately. and when that person to say they make an error. and this happens in this business, in the cockpit,

even it's not about perfection. it's about trapping the years and providing an environment where someone can interrupt the captain or the surgeon and say, a doctor, he kept the, i don't think we're getting that right. are we doing this? right. and instead of being lambasted for raising their, they're a call to question, it should be embraced rewarded. even if the call out is pointing to something that is not accurate. and i do it on the cockpit all the time. say something. if you see something that didn't thank you for such a detailed explanation. we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, we're going to talk about the legal jeopardy that boeing finds itself in, not just civilly but criminally. stay tuned. 2 2 the. 2 the,

if you was thinking about russia, what does your mind to picture the landscape open up before your eyes? the 11 does you imagine the, the discounts dodge the journey? the, the you ready to come along the, there was a time when i started to was abused to attain flowers divided the continental langford amongst themselves. it was divided as a hunting ground. if we do not unite the corner knives as we come out again. we

know that they are those who want the mazda continent to stop and 8, but the mazda clinton, and never be stopped, because the mazda continent must be great. she will only be great on the shore, does all of us sons and daughters on by the sun all day. so now click on the good news console, and let us confess about underground east. the mazda upon the 1941 with the nazis help relation, ultram nationalist b. u. s. dash is the claim, the independent state of croatia. shortly on the seizing power us, they build the scene of us concentration camp a place associated with the worst atrocities committed in yugoslavia. during world war 2, the stash is used to come system to isolate and exterminate subs, roma,

jews, and other non catholic minorities, and political opponents of the fascist regime. conditions in the senate of us come with her renders the gods tortured to arise and the prisoners. they send them a consultation temps. so most of them died. it was incredible genocide. the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. we're speaking with captain dennis pager. he's been a pilot for more than 36 years, starting with service in the us air force flying the k. c 135 our that's an old. boeing 7, a 7, including deployments to operation desert storm. he's been with american airlines for 30 years and is currently a boeing 737 captain. he's also the communications chair and spokesperson and

investor relations committee chair for the allied pilots association. the union that represents 15000 american airlines pilots. he's been featured in 11 documentaries and dozens of media stories on the 737 next tragedies. he continues this work on behalf of the allied pilots association. unimportant safety issues to this day, to include post pandemic flights. and to ensure that proper training and safety standards are not overcome by commercial interests such as data stager, thanks again for being with us. thank you. it's a good conversation. i appreciate it. it's a lot of fun and very interesting and i thank you. so let's talk about discussions between the us justice department and boeing. executives. justice has made an offer . that sounds very much like a sweetheart deal, and this offer was accepted and the offer stipulated the boeing as a company would plead guilty to one counter fraud. in the depths of $346.00

people, the company would be sentenced to 3 years of oversight. and a fine, large fine. why in the world do you think the justice department would go so easy on a company that's so obviously trouble. well that's just being reported. we'll find out the final step here and i think the families of those $346.00 lives that were lost were briefed on, on what the department of justice is proposing to be done. so i'm assuming that's accurate. um yeah, it's devastating. again, we go to the individuals as matter fact. let's go to david calhoun. boeing just announced that for last year in 2023, he would be paid some $33000000.00. that's pretty stunning that boeing would offer the seo the captain of the ship while the ship. ready is going under that amount of money, but what's even more horrifying city accepted it and i was in the senate hearing

and he was asked about his compensation and evasive as he was, he said, well, it's a lot of money and it's public information. and in 20 less than 20 minutes, you can find out how much boeing i offered to pay him for 2023 by contract. but he was, he was dancing around saying the number when i gave it to him is 32800000. so so they, he didn't walk away from that and he stood his ground. yeah, i'm getting paid for that and here i am to take take the hard questions it's, it's just money and it's not real consequences. and don't worry if david calhoun and seal boeing had not taken his 33000000. he's going to be all right, he's got a stackable in stock. in this is not about income envy. this is about some level of real justice, not financial justice, but account for the ship that you lead. and unfortunately,

it looks like the corporation itself will come out of this without a blemish on it, other than the court of public opinion across the globe. not trusting them anymore, so a lot of opinions out there. i will this change the behavior of boeing, you know, what changes the behavior of boeing is not just some fines. and by the way, an additional $240000000.00 in punitive damages. um, you know boeing is bleeding cash right now, but that's, that's like a $5.00 fine for going a 150 miles an hour and a schools on so uh, you know, that's, it's up to the experts, but i can tell you that the flying public and myself, who counts on boeing to provide me an aircraft that's been properly sought out and not to conceal, not to hide things from me. and on the as a, i'm digressing into the face, you're going to hold them to account. there are times that things are reported to

the gsa that they never tell the pilots because they think, well, it doesn't really affect their operation. you're damn right. it does tell me about what the big issues are. and then i'll decide if it's important enough, but information is what keeps people alive and the decisions to hide information like boeing has done in the past and has continued to do even after the crashes. it has no repercussion beyond embarrassment and financial penalty. so, you know, that's, that's from the cockpit. you know, when your plane is, is doing things that i can't control, or i'm wondering, i've got a regular emergency here. i'm trained for this, but what else is going to pop up? and there's just some design that i'm not aware of, that's the height and state of alert that i have on boeing. aircraft and particularly the $737.00 max. but again,

as dark as the sounds you've got to know the traveling public, you have an advocate out there that we have only one goal and that is to protect your life. boeing may be in the for profit business. pilots are in the for protection business that will not change. we've heard pilots and boeing employees say that they would not want their loved ones to fly on a boeing plane or they overstating the risk you feel safe flying boeing jets. and oh, i completely respect that opinion i. i don't blame them for feeling that way. and the end of the deal. i close the deal on a boeing aircraft along with my 1st officer. we have a moral and professional obligation to not fly an airplane when we believe it's not safe to do so. as a matter of fact, the safety margin has not been maintained. i do it not frequently,

but every flight i look for reasons why i should not accept this airplane and looking at the maintenance log like i did just last week on that max and calling and saying, can you explain this to me a little bit better? i know there's this air worthiness directive about this flight control, and that's the type of behavior the it's, it's a trust but verify in the case of boeing it's, i don't trust you and i'm verifying anyway, but working with each airline and our airlines are on that same venture to protect their passengers, no matter what, because an airplane goes down. there's in a tragedy of loss of life. it can impact the business plan. so i get everybody's attention is life and money. if you're interested in both great, if you're interested in one pick life. so uh no, the public has to know that when we're on the airplane and we get trained extensively on systems and emergencies, like i mentioned before, this booklet doesn't replace judgment. it adds to it, and in the year and around,

let's talk about the checklist that you expect me to run flawlessly so that the airplane doesn't go down from a business perspective. what do you think all of this means for boeing as a company? oh, it can get a handle on it. the people in charge now are not the ones to grab handle, no doubt about it. it needs a, a systemic change, not in just the. ready it says things because frankly boeing has gotten very good at that. the source in there comes, the apartment is doing a brilliant job of saying all the right stuff. and they're just not doing the right things. so whereas boeing's financial future less talk their language, can i get your attention? please do not just assume that your historic past of long ago will generate profits for you in the future. you have a huge defense contract that's in jeopardy is probably the core of their business. if you don't do the commercial side correctly and you come up against criminal

indictment, that's going to impact that. now that i have your attention on the financial side, let's go to the moral obligation. every worker there, just like every worker in american airlines down to the some below the ways we call it the ramp workers, the mechanics. every time you pull out a tool or you look at the airplane and, and check it for anything that might be off. you doing your job. you're saving lives at boeing, all the workers there, and there are thousands of great people there. know how to do the right thing. they've been under this incredible pressure. i've served in the military. i served my country. everything you do impacts the success and safety of what our country is doing. and yes, i brought boeing into that. they are a us iconic company. it impacts the economy. my, most importantly, it's reputation across the globe has been damaged. so everything you do to putting

on for simple bolts on a door can make the difference to our country, to boeing, and most importantly, to the lives when trust that you've done your job. that's the way to do business. you know, one of the last duties i have on the aircraft should the aircraft go down and i'm fortunate enough to have survived it. think of captain sullen burger on the hudson . one of the last thing she does in that movie is real. my last duty is to walk through the cabin to make sure that everyone has gotten off that airplane before i leave it. boeing, make that the way you do business. at boeing, shareholders put their money into boeing's hands on my airplane. passengers put their lives in my hands again bowing. make that the way you do business and you

might see profits, but more importantly, you might be able to go. ready up in the morning and look in the mirror and be proud of the work you've done a meant to that, that was brilliant. and i'm sorry that we have to even finish our conversation. i wish you the very, very best captain that is thank you for being with us. a safety is not an intellectual exercise, just to keep us all working. it is a matter of life and death. it's the sum of our contributions to safety management that determines whether the people we work with the people we serve. even the people we love, live or die. even the bible talks about this. proverbs chapter 11 verse 14 says, where there is no council, the people fail. but in the multitude of counselors there is safety. i'd like to think our guest caps and did a seizure for being with us today. and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode that was the, the lowest. i'm john curiosity, please follow me on subsets at john kerry. aku,

we'll see you next time the . 2 2 the for the past by just especially by some of the picture of the scheme of a police just follow states you thumbs, you pull solely on the study to disclose all of us to deal with them on the piece beside

the 1st or 2nd or 3rd person would ship, so it's up to somebody the efficiency of which i'm shifting. if it's over 30 seconds solenoid, the seems quite sure. so the water is part of the, the employee would posted isn't the defense you of us and that in the word part is it something deeper,

more complex might be present? let's stop without please. is that stuff out of the you know, living out here. i've seen some this guy to ok. i couldn't get the picture of it. because uh i, i didn't pull my my phone out, passing up. finally got my phone. i'll take a picture of this thing i saw in the sky. that's what really tripped me out. this is one of the ships i saw in the sky. that's what it looked like. it grabs, i brought it to his read, read those. this right here. i saw this and this guy is a useful data pipeline ship. that's what it looked like. this one was coming from the opposite way. it was like a big blow arrested green container, plugging this guy and it wake towards that mountain right over there. the one that has a door on top of it. yeah, yeah, you can.