the latest episode of going on the ground with action redundancy. bye for now. the the mass general can see and welcome back to going underground rule ca single around the world from the you a on the 40 seconds out of us review, k u. s. u on cyber entrance, eli massacre, apollo sidney, and refugees in bay route. today the un security council meet once again in new york to discuss guys, 3 permanent members on the genocide, the usa, u. k. in front and to oppose it to russia in china, in nato. countries, even the scale of the heart is diminished. one circled main stream media genocide,

a widely used legal term, has been reserved in the u. s. m. 5 and nato's official enemies. never financial countries when the countries they are joining me now from rhode island in the usa is an internationally recognized is mainly american genocide scholar, who opposes what even in a blood joe biden is admitted. is the indiscriminate killing of civilians. oh, my boss office at every day israel is getting weaker. he's beside me, officer, a professor of holocaust and genocide, studies at brown university. the present. thank so much for coming on, you know, as well as the, the debates between the, the 2 bank rolled candidates there bankrolled by israelis, of course, in the united states. and the rest of the united states seems to be more and more profiler spinning you know, given leave it every minute, every hour on social media. everyone is seeing what is happening in the middle east . p lance at the british medical paper on peer review. just as we said, under 96000, maybe in killed,

complete estimate that would equate to 5000000 in britain. 27000000 in the usa. and ralph nader, a man who himself may have saved more lives than anyone else cuz was endorsed with a seat belt, said it could be 300000 that have been killed some 15 percent given you a scholarship on genocide can just contextualize that kind of numbers in the absence of any actual peer reviewed vegas. well, 1st of all, thanks for having me. as you know, the numbers um m e. we don't know exactly what the numbers uh, we're relying on estimates square relying and what, how mazda is report, and we're relying on what the strategies are reporting this for a few outside of service. so it's a bit hard to tell. one thing that i found, especially telling and of all places he was discussed in pilots, in the hebrew version of it, the truth is the figure of an estimate to 2 percent of the population of guns

that are being killed. and that if you compare it to other cases and the 21st century, there's only one other case with 2 percent of the population were killed. and that's in syria. and syria took 13 years and we're talking about 10 months. so the scale of the more or less, very 5 killing that we can talk about right now is, you know, most, if you add to the, obviously estimates of how many people are buried under the deputy and the long term repercussions of what is happening. so they would speak about the streaming the high numbers quite apart from the destruction of, um, did you cation institutions, universities, schools, museums, mosques, basically, systematic destruction of guns,

making it for the future. what do you use that same, tend uninhabitable? yeah, but you know the criticisms of our reps and is really media which is actually internationally . so might say to the 4 of investigating the, the immediate roots of what happened. i mean, if you look at the yeah, the on the, i don't know, the 28 helicopters emptied hundreds of building. maybe the models on october, the 7th. more to look up the demons, killing so many is really jews. and how rich has come on, defy within israel for being a mass mouthpiece. what's it like for you is a professor of the holocaust and the genocide to try and even the adjudicate on evidence and what is actually happening and gaza will look. i'm mostly based in the united states and i, i say what, i think the people who don't like it. people do like it. when i went to israel in

june, as you may know, i tried to give a lecture, it's an easy way to university, and they were protest against me. um, because of claiming that i had at that point indeed indicated that i thought a genocide was occurring casa and so many students that were protesting against me . many of them were students who had served previously a shortly before the re service in gaza itself. um, so yes, i think a, you know, obviously in israel, the many people who don't like my opinions, but i must say that people writing for a to live in israel be much more courageous that i am in rhode island. i want to get more onto your visit to is rarely in june. but even what you just said there about genocide, you can't really hear that on american television. in britain,

there are reports of comcast sky news, a present to being fired for even contextualizing ideas about the holocaust and history with respect to be ongoing killing by british american european weaponry in gaza today. why? i mean, i don't know whether you have been invited to the cnn owned by warner brothers, a warner brothers, you know, you're not allowed to say that kind of thing. i, i actually spoke with cnn months ago. um and for um, on her program at the time. admittedly. uh i too was very cautious about uh, identifying uh what was happening. and uh, so as genocide um, you know, genocide is, is a very peculiar crime. if you examine what it is,

according to his definition by the u. n and the un resolution of 1948. people tend to use that whenever they see something terrible happening. when uh, thousands of people are being killed, butchered people say, well, it must be general side, but according to the un to finish and which is a very specific one. and it's the only one that really matters in international. no, you need to do more than that, you need to show that there's an intent to destroy a particular group such in whole or in part of that intent that it's being implemented. and that's very hard to prove. so for a long time i to, i said that i thought the obviously war crimes happening, crimes against humanity, which do not needs to show intent. and it's only recently more or less since may, that i've come to the conclusion that what we're seeing seems to be channels. uh,

so this is i was saying before an attempt by the idea of which is controlled by these really government to make life impossible for the population of goals. and therefore i have the ability to it, to the extent that the, the death told the would rise over time not only from bones but also because of the terrible conditions to humanitarian conditions. and because people will do everything they can to escape this. um, i'm not sure they will ever be able to prove this is genocide, and i'm not sure that the i c j which is deliberating. this will be able to conclude that this is genocide because one would need to find documentation that there was a plan that consists of planned to carry the so um and because escrow is

apparently not going to be taken over by another country is happening in germany. after world war 2 of these documents, if they exist and they don't always exist, people don't like producing such documents. but if they do exist, will either be destroyed or just kept in safe. so those are the individual comments from cabinet ministers and netanyahu's and government down to know if you need recordings. and it was just a, in the past of 72 hours the past week. we've had reports of the recordings being stopped and at old know, taking a meeting stuff to the cabinet meetings as they plan the mask because we're seeing or social media correct. this is, this is one of the problems. i mean we've, we've heard reports that the, the early debates that were happening in the prime minister's office with the heads of the military were not recorded. and no notes will take

a um and i suspect that that was intentional. not necessarily because it was speaking about genocide but, but also because the attorney out did not want to be burdened by the huge fiasco of october of, of the october 7th. and so in that sense, as i say that politically, those minutes, the lead is, may make the statements that on the face of the general side of the statements. and they could be found guilty of incitement to general side by making these statements . because these are decision makers and people of influence who will have some impact on the social feelings or the on the like statement by netanyahu is more incitement. it's not a comfortable events. you know, when one would have to deliberate that it's, it's definitely insight smith. i mean,

obviously, you know, i have this is, hey, doesn't i mean cream con, yeah, i see c prosecute just being ongoing on dependence show. i think he's still sitting on his hands about all of this, but i suppose more importantly for those countries with due respect to the united states of the doesn't recognize these codes. would that mean that uh britain is uh presented as a facilitator of genocide would be comfortable. it's a member of these quotes and other european nations that are pouring in millions of dollars of weapons, jeanette, and yeah, for him to carry out the genocide. does it make them comfortable? yes, of course. i mean so, but even if you don't prove that it's genocide and it's only so to speak, only war crimes then in and that is much easier to prove. then countries let's keep supplying as ro wants to carry out this destruction in guns complicit, of course and, and most importantly is the united states. so in, in that's is,

you know, one can argue whether it would be possible to prove that his genocide or no, i think it would be much easier to prove that war crimes were committed. and the crimes against humanity, which is explanation of civilian populations has occurred in countries that are supplying israel with, often in breach of their own domestic rules. of certainly part of it. yeah, i'm sorry. so the, of course, the united states says it's constantly monitoring the use of them and we've heard the statements about power use the cutting of power of the water, of those things that are essential, the sustainable, the no one seems to be hiring up about this. you know, israel's been doing this for months now and decided african case of the international committee. cool. where the i c j was you know, ages ago. so it means doesn't really matter. i'll give you those and, and that's with the israeli population. you it, you are in june, it them

a beer outside be a little bit cheaper. it in the admin, glory and university. clearly the young people of israel do not simple your view. how to, you know, 1st of all the people of israel, mostly i suspect don't support my view. the people who were there who were protesting me were members of extreme right wing organizations. i don't think that the politics reflects the general view of the population, but my view on garza is very different from the views of most as ratings. and what is interesting here is that the many hundreds of thousands of societies who would like that to be a ceasefire. who would like to be a return with the hostages. and just hang on that professor, i think i'll just help you. and then we'll get back to the hostages. more from the time of his all professor of all the course and genocide, studies of brown university. after this breaks the

rom, just don't need to shape house because after care and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves boils, the parts we choose to look so common ground the the welcome back to going underground. and i'm still here with the professor of all the cost of genocide studies at brown university on my boss of the professor i interrupted you about to your audience had been glory and

university in june. some of whom is there any jews hated what you had to say in your analysis of what is being going on these past months, enabled by the weapons sent by the united states, britain in europe and union. right. so and my, my view is that what is interesting to me is that the, i fact large numbers of israelis, i don't know if the majority or not, who would like that to be a cease fire and would like to have the hostages back from casa dead and alive, but they are not interested in particular in what is going on in guthrie itself. they don't trust it to teneo. they think the government this incompetent, which it is, they think they've missed any. oh, it's not reaching a deal because he's afraid to lose his cabinet and end up in jail, but they are not showing that's what i was writing about. they're not showing much

empathy for the people of guys who are being killed in the name. and that's the, the, the kind of conundrum the to see people in israel right now, and that's my impression of feel insecure. the country is becoming we could, people are exhausted by what is going on both of the internal political turmoil, the ongoing war displacement of tens of thousands of x rays of the entire north is being evacuated with hundreds of houses being destroyed, buffers blah rocket. but they are not really seeing any way out of this. they cannot think about a political resolution to this and invest us and just to neo has just somehow drug the population into thinking that the only way to continue is through violence

rather than through reaching some kind of political resolution. not just to this crisis, but to the entire relationship between israel and the palestinians, but this pre dates that and yahoo with the bogeyman as it were. and you know all of this and you've written about this. how does the holocaust do not see germany in form? and create the for our dial ground into which, and i should say pals have shown that actually uh, the extermination of all palestinians as quite a degree of popularity in, in israel, more extreme than even that yahoo and his ministers arguably. well, how does that play? what does this historical perspective that you've written about being a professor of holocaust and genocide studies him to be a societal mindset of is really jews. it's a, it's a, it's a complex issue. you know, it's a bit difficult to simplify, but i would say, you know, israel was created in the wake of the hollow quotes and all those on as it began.

and of course already in the late 19th century, the international community and many jews around the world of to the holocaust, felt that it was the just thing to do to allow the jews to have a state of their own. assuming that much of the genocide of the jews it could because they didn't have their own state. um, initially in the early years of the state, the article is, was actually something that people were ashamed of because that was this argument that i still remember growing up. the people would like sheep to the slaughter. and the only people who have thought of as an example with say, the rebels of the will. so get to those who 4th engagement sees and didn't just go through the gas chambers. but over time, this change and on the previous slide it is true. this was outside by nathan, you know, but certainly from the 19 seventy's and eighty's of them and nothing big in the the,

the other prime minister from billy cooled. the holocaust came to form a kind of glue for you to a society. and the idea of the eclipse became different. that is, that israel was not only created in the wake of the whole course as a, as a response to the auto course, but also was always on the threat of another honda course. and that anyone is threatening to israel was threatening it with genocide and therefore any response to that has to be an absolute response. those threats have to be wiped out. and so this understanding of the holocaust has both a kind of creating solidarity for society. the old and the young and the religious and the secular and juice of them at least and choose from. you could always unite the ro, this notion that we were all potential victims of another whole cause also created the sense of vulnerability that any attempt to, to somehow,

particularly we've put a sentence over land that, that one could somehow find some resolution to the conflict. any attempt by palestinians to threaten israel was seeing this general science of venice gives, in the numerous amount of license to those, especially those politicians who would like to use it as a to of destruction. and by now and then to teneo over the last couple of decades, it has become the main way of speaking about it. to the extent the come of just thought a particularly an organization that the, the, that i would support become us with, with the f a mattress means it was using on october 7th, is now described as a nazi organization, which is not whatever else one says about it and that the event of october 7th is

described as an attempt to genocide and the rest continuation of the holocaust, which simply office skates. the actual reasons for the value of between choose and purchase, the risk presumably the thing at the present. and so they can get the presidents, a tens of 10000 prisoners, our prisoners taken hostage by these really so. so the ballast, any movement, say, i do do with the, you know, some of what you said as being the into, as a propaganda tends to be amplified, it goes to hollywood over the years. exodus bull newman, who knows what else, but i don't know, did you if you've seen zone of interest by jonathan blazer, about how it's and i don't know i, i to perhaps the global south who have come up completely against israel in the car and conflict. the idea of a nova music festival on that day beside the law just open the prism cam. hey in the world, according to the british prime minister dave cameron. well, i mean, what goes through their minds in a society which could have a music festival by the rules of an offer of a camp. i mean,

i don't know whether you explain why we, with a zone of interest is relevant to the great film about the nazis living near the house ritz, which was of course, eventually liberated by the soviet union to make. i mean, i'll tell you 2 things. first about the nova festival, i was asking about that, why was that happening there? and people telling me it was happening there because of these festivals create a huge amount of noise pollution, and nobody wants that noise pollution. so what they did, they did it in that area, which is a sort of mt does a and they directed all the noise to what's going so because who cares about noise pollution? to go. so now if you think about the young people in garza who attract the in, that's kind of get to be behind fences and, and so forth for them. they may also want to be in a festival like that, but they're not allowed to be in beth. and so i don't think that the people who are

organizing the 1st of all, even thoughts about that before would break it. we can pollute noise towards garza, so it does show a complete indifference toward the sentence and that is very much present in israel as for sort of interest. look, i mean i'm not a big fan of comparisons with the nazis, not by the people who support. uh, is there any policies and say from us that like the nonsense and not the people who i guess is there any policies and say base rates or like the nazis and that's no of our streets. it's a very particular case and who the 1st was a very the coming down to is portrayed in that movie was if a particular case, you can make all kinds of powers. but we don't need to compare with the articles. we can say that the jealous of the actions taken care and gone so as to where in

many other cases in rwanda, in the can, both the in i'm in the, again see, i mean is we don't needs to go directly to the general side to condemn what this was doing, but i suppose the reason for doing it is reciprocally is because, as you said, the creation of is very loud itself came out of out of that, which would then allows of course, one also to be able to remind people about the war so we'll get through uprising and the bravery of the jews fighting the nazis. and then looking, do of course palestinian resistance groups and solidarity groups fighting as the justified under united nation resolution to using arms against their occupies absolutely. this is, i mean this is why this situation. i mean, 1st of all, it's tragic, but it's also failed with many arnie's. if you have to remember that the genocide

convention itself came into for us very much and response to what they don't see fit to the truth in world war 2. and to have the state of israel now being accused of that is, is, it is horrifying to many is read is. but the fact of the matter is that the core, the, to the finish. and what, as far as doing now, can easily be seen as well. so and the same is with the question of assistance. you're absolutely right. and it's not only resistance to the nazis. the, the, the heads of the both the, the left and the right in israel, where resistance fights us as they saw it during the 19 fifties and for peace against british rule. and nothing big in was the head of the of the is going of the, um uh, what's called in hickey over the shoulders. yes, absolutely. and so they certainly thought that it was the rights to fight for their own liberation and self determination as a people. but when palestinians oppose is radio oppression in occupied territories,

they can only call them terrorist that's, that's the big on any that it's impossible today for most radius to understand the posting is resisting the pressure, which as you say, is legal by international. just finally we had done the i on the former deputy, the foreign minister of israel, and the show. he said it'd be quite simple if the 2000000 of guys that just vacated and went to design. i does it for a while. do you see is real as imploding a given what we've been seeing these the past 10 or so months? well, it's not including of the moment and i don't expect the end of israel what i think may happen. and i hope it doesn't, but what i think may happen is that if this was not stopped in what it's doing now, um what will be created is a full blown upon it system. that's what the nothing,

you know, been very small to each of the people around them. that's what they want to people say it's already the as well i, i would say that certainly the westbank is in a perfect system that a positive system is sort of seeping into israel. we saw it even before the war during the, the, the protests against the judicial crew in the 1st part of a 2023. and i think it may become much worse because now things on the west bank are getting fine, was it? so in a sense, israel wants to turn guns into the west bank and wants it to do with bank into guns and is using very similar techniques. and but a in a profit state can exist any may exist for the code to the case 3 decades. it will become increasingly isolated, impoverished, many people will leave it, and eventually i think you will implode, they will implode in the says, maybe

a little bit like south africa that it will change and it will become eventually, hopefully, it's safe for the citizens. but that may take a very long time and a great deal of blood will be shut before a top. it's professor, i'm about to thank you. thank you. and that's it for the show. i'll continue condolences to those very value you as you um, genocide will be back with a brand new episode on the south of the angel. then keep in touch by law, so she'll media if it's not sensitive, we will country and have to our channel going on. the run tv on mobile dot com to let you know that besides going on to go and see if after the, [000:00:00;00] the, due on august, the 6 ukrainian troops across the border and launched

a full scale and caution that the rest of the coast could reach and we could, we could start with the north focusing their offensive on so would you patel near the border? the soldier subscribers to several settlements was seized with this uh, setting as well sir. so special models them to come out to a subsidy, a web city, a web city. a with russian troops moved out to the battles in counterterrorism. operation regime was imposed inventories for the odds confront they'll go to regents from a farm to legally rewarded for fire invoice reflects from orders then as the level of support and you you said your little very close to listed in the state in

the the american was the long history of felonies in the us who also tried to recruit mercenaries for you crime. we take a closer look at the suspect and the 2nd, assess the nation attempt to on donald trump. definitely black and white is about good versus evil, your grains or the rest of the world are caring. and john, and generous on self concept. local law enforcement isn't missing. words questioning how they've gotten the manners to get close to the former president and saying the f b. i needs to take the possibility of