also known in the world as arms dealers that we must not be ashamed of then are the i'm asked you in are can see and welcome back to going underground will cost single around the world from the you a on the 40 seconds out of us review k u. s. u on cyber insurance eli massacre, a palestinian refugees in bay route. today the un security council meets once again in new york to discuss guys, 3 permanent members on the genocide, the usa, u. k. and fronts and to oppose the dresser in china. in nato countries, even the scale of the heart is diminished on the circle of mainstream media genocide, a widely used legal time has been reserved in the u. s. m. 5 and nato's official enemies. never for nato countries where the countries they are joining me now from

rhode island in the usa is an internationally recognized is randy american genocide scholar, who opposes what even enabler joe biden is admitted? is the indiscriminate kidding of civilians. oh, my boss office at every day israel is getting weaker. he's beside the office of professor of holocaust and genocide, studies at brown university. the present. thank so much for coming on, you know, as well as the, the debates between the, the 2 bankrolled candidates there bankrupt by israelis. of course, in the united states. and the rest of the united states seems to be more and more pro palestinian. i'll leave it every minute, every hour on social media. everyone is seeing what is happening in the middle east . p lance at the british medical paper on peer review. just as we said, under 96000, maybe in killed, complete estimate that would equate to 5000000 in britain, 27000000 in the usa. and ralph nader, a man who himself may have saved more lives than anyone else cuz was endorsed with

a seat belt, said it could be 300000. they've been killed some 15 percent given you a scholarship on genocide. can just contextualize that kind of numbers in the absence of any actual peer reviewed vegas. well, 1st of all, thanks for having me. as you know, the numbers um m e, we don't know exactly what the numbers uh, we're relying on estimates square relying and what, how mazda is report, and we're relying on what the strategies are reporting, but for a few outside of service. so it's a bit hard to tell one figure that i found especially telling and of all price if it was discussed in pilots, in the hebrew version of it. the truth is the figure of an estimate to 2 percent of the population of guns that are being killed and that if you compare it

to other cases and the 21st century, there's only one other case with 2 percent of the population were killed. and that's in syria and syria took 13 years and we're talking about 10 months. so the scale of the more or less, very 5 killing that we can talk about right now is, you know, most, if you add to the, obviously estimates of how many people are buried under the deputy and the long term repercussions of what is happening. so they would speak about extremely high numbers, quite apart from the destruction of, um, could you cation institutions, universities, schools, museums, mosques, basically, systematic destruction of guns, making it for the future. latrice that same tend uninhabitable to.

yeah, but you know, the criticisms of our reps and uh, is really media which is actually internationally. so might say to the 4 of investigating the, the immediate roots of what happens. i mean, if you look at the year, the, or the, i don't know to the $28.00 has overdues emptied hundreds of 13, maybe the models on october. the 7 was on no. couple of them killing so many as rainy jews. and how ritz is coming to fire within israel for being a mass mouthpiece. what's it like for you is a professor of the holocaust and the genocide to try and even the adjudicate on evidence and what is actually happening and gaza? a look, i'm mostly based in the united states and i, i say what i think the people who don't like it. people do like it. when i went to intro in june, as you may know, i tried to give a lecture. it's an easy way to university and they were protest against me. and

because of claiming that i had at that point indeed indicated that i thought a genocide was occurring casa. and so many students that were protesting against me, many of them were students who had served previously a shortly before the b service in gaza itself. um, so yes, i think a, you know, obviously in israel, the many people who don't like my opinions, but i must say that people writing for a to live in israel be much more courageous that i am in rhode island. i want to get more onto your visit to, is rarely in june, but even what you just said there, about genocide, yukon, really here that on american television in britain, there were reports of chromecast, sky, news, a present of being fired for even contextualizing ideas about the holocaust in

history with respect to the ongoing killing by british american european weaponry and gaza today. why? i mean, i don't know whether you have been invited to the cnn owned by a warner brothers, a warner brothers. you know, you're not allowed to say that kind of thing. i i actually spoke with cnn months ago. um and for, um, on her program at the time. admittedly. uh, i too was very cautious about uh, identifying uh what was happening. and uh, so as genocide um, you know, genocide is, is a very peculiar crime. if you examine what it is according to its definition by the u. n. and the un resolution of 1948 people tend

to use that whenever they see something terrible happening when thousands of people are being killed, butchered people say, well it must be genocide, but according to the un to finish and which is a very specific one. and it's the only one that really matters in international know, you need to do more than that. you need to show that there's an intent to destroy a particular group such in whole or in part. and that, that intent that is being implemented. and that's very hard to prove. so for a long time i to the said that i thought the obviously war crimes happening, crimes against humanity, which do not needs to show intent. and it's only recently more or less since may, that i've come to the conclusion that what we're seeing seems to be channels. uh, that is, i was saying before an attempt by the idea of which is controlled by these really

government to make life impossible for the population of garza. and therefore i have uh to the ability to it uh, to the extent that the, the desk told there would rise over time not only from bones but also because of the terrible conditions to shoot me in a town and conditions. and because people will do everything they can to escape this. um, i'm not sure they will ever be able to prove the this is genocide and i'm not sure that the i c j which is deliberating. this will be able to conclude that this is genocide because one would need to find documentation that there was a plan, a conservative plan to carry the so um and because escrow is apparently not going to be taken over by another country is happening in germany

after world war 2 of these documents, if they exist and they don't always exist, people don't like producing such documents. but if they do exist, will either be destroyed or just kept in safe. so those are the individual comments from cabinet ministers in netanyahu's and government down to know if you need recordings. and it was just a, in the past of 72 hours the past week. we've had reports of recordings being stopped and at old know, taking a meeting stopped in cabinet meetings as they planned the mass because we're seeing or social media to correct. this is, this is one of the problems. i mean we've, we've heard reports that the, the early debates that were happening in the prime minister's office with the heads of the military were not recorded and no notes were taken. um and i suspect that that was intentional. not necessarily because it was speaking about

genocide but, but also because the attorney out did not want to be burdened by the huge fiasco of october of, of the october 7th. and so in that sense, as i say that politically, this military leaders may make the statements that on the face of the general side of the statements. and they could be found guilty of incitement to general side by making these statements. because these are decision makers and people of influence who will have some impact on the social feeling for the on the like. statement by netanyahu is more incitement. it's not a comfortable events. you know, when one would have to deliberate that it's, it's definitely incitement. i mean, the only thing international i have just is, hey, doesn't, i mean cream con, yeah, i see, see, prosecute has been ongoing on because this show, i think he's still sitting on his hands about all of this. but i suppose more

importantly for those countries with due respect that the united states of the doesn't recognize these codes. would that mean that uh britain is uh, presented as a facilitator of genocide would be comfortable. it's a member of these quotes and other european nations that are pouring in millions of dollars of weapons, jeanette, and yeah, for him to carry out the genocide. does it make them comfortable? yes, of course. i mean so, but even if you don't prove that it's genocide and it's only so to speak, only war crimes then in and that is much easier to prove. then countries let's keep supplying as ro wants to carry out this destruction in guns complicit, of course. and, and most importantly, is the united states. so in, in that's is, you know, one can argue whether it would be possible to prove that his genocide or no,

i think it would be much easier to prove that war crimes were committed. and the crimes against humanity, which is extermination of civilian populations, has occurred in countries that are supplying israel would often in breach of their own domestic laws. oh, certainly part of it. yeah, i'm sorry. so the, of course, the united states says it's constantly monitoring the use of them, and we've heard the statements about power use the cutting of power of water, of those things that are central to sustainable. the no one seems to be hiring up about this. you know, israel has been doing this for months now and the south african case, the international committee. cool. where the i c, j was, you know, ages ago. so it means doesn't really matter. i'll give you those and that's with the israeli population. you it, you are in june. it them a beer outside be a little bit cheaper. it, it had been glory and university. clearly the young people of israel do not simple

your view. how to, you know, 1st of all the people of israel, mostly i suspect don't support my view. the people who were there who were protesting me were members of extreme right wing organizations. i don't think that the politics reflects a general view of the population, but my view on garza is very different from the views of most israelis. and what is interesting here is that the many hundreds of thousands of societies who would like that to be a ceasefire. who would like to be a return with the hostages. and just hang on that professor, i think i'll just stop you there. we'll get back to the hostages, or from the time of his all professor of all the course and genocide studies of brown university after this break the

the the welcome back to going on the right. and i'm still here with the professor of all the course of genocide studies at brown university on my boss or of professor i interrupted you about your audience at uh, ben gory and university in june. some of whom is really jews hated what you had to say in your analysis of what has been going on these past months, enabled by the weapons sent by the united states, britain in europe and union. right, so and my,

my view is that what is interesting to me is that the, i fact large numbers of vis or anything. so i don't know if the majority or not, who would like that to be a sci fi, and would like to have the hostages back from casa dead and alive. but they are not interested in particular, in what is going on in guthrie itself. they don't trust in that time, you know, they think the government, this incompetent, which it is, they think they're missing, you know, it's not reaching it to you because he's afraid to lose his cabinet and end up in jail. but they have no choice. that's what i was writing about, they're not showing much empathy for the people of guys who are being killed in the name. and that's the the, the kind of conundrum the to see people in israel right now, and that's my impression of feel insecure. the country is becoming weaker.

people are exhausted by what is going on, both of the internal political turmoil, the ongoing war displacement of tens of thousands of x rays of the entire north as being evacuated with hundreds of houses being destroyed, but has blah rockets. but they are not really seeing any way out of this. they cannot think about a political resolution to this. an investment teneo has just somehow drug, the population into thinking. the only way to continue is through violence rather than through reaching some kind of political resolution. no, just to this crisis, but to the entire relationship between israel and the palestinians with this pre dates that and yahoo, the bogeyman as it were. and you know, all of this and you've written about this. how does the holocaust do not see germany in form and create the photo ground into which?

and i should say, polls have shown that actually, uh, the extermination of all palestinians as quite a degree of popularity in, in israel, more extreme than even that yahoo and his ministers arguably. how does that play? what does this historical perspective that you've written about being a professor of holocaust and genocide studies him to be a societal mindset of his religious a. it's a, it's a, it's a complex issue. you know, it's a bit difficult to simplify, but i would say, you know, this row was created in the wake of the hollow quotes and all those on this and began to of course, already in the late 19th century, the international community and many jews around the world after the holocaust felt that it was the just thing to do to allow the jews to have a state of their own assuming that much of the genocide of the jews it could because they didn't have their own state. um,

initially in the early years of the state, the article is, was actually something that people were ashamed of because that was this argument that i still remember growing up. the people would like sheep to the slaughter. and the only people who have thought of as an example with say, the rebels of the will. so get to those who fought against the nazis and didn't just go through the gas chambers. but over time, this change and on the previous slide it is true. this was outside by the neo, but certainly from the 19 seventy's and eighty's of them and nothing big in the the, the other prime minister from billy cooled. the holocaust came to form a kind of glue for you to a society. and the idea of the eclipse became different. that is, that israel was not only created in the wake of the whole course as a, as a response to the course, but also was always on the threat of another honda accord. and if anyone was

wrecking this rule, was threatening it with genocide and therefore any response to that had to be an absolute response. those threats have to be wiped out. and so this understanding of the holocaust is both that kind of create the solidarity for society. the old and the young and the religious and the secular and juice of them at least and choose from. you could always unite the ro, this notion that we were all potential victims of another holy cause. also created the sense of vulnerability that any attempt to, to, um, uh, somehow, particularly with palestinians over land that, that one could somehow find some resolution to the conflict. any attempt by palestinians to threaten israel was seeing his genocidal baskets in the numerous amount of license to those. especially those politicians who would like to use it

as a to of destruction. and by now and in ateneo over the last couple of decades, it has become the main way of speaking about it. to the extent the come of just thought a particularly an organization that the, the, that i would support. but come us with what the f a mattress means it was using on october 7th is now described as a nazi organization, which is not whatever else one says about it. and that the event of october 7th is described as an attempt to genocide and then the rest continuation of the holocaust which simply office gates the actual reasons for the balance between choose and purchase the risk presumably that they have to present it so they can get the presidency, tens of 10000 prisoners, our prisoners taken hostage by these really so. so the ballast, any movement, say,

i do do with the, you know, some of what you said as being the intensive propaganda tends to be amplified. it goes through hollywood over the years, exodus with paul newman, who knows what else. but i don't know if you, if you've seen zone of interest by jonathan blazer about the house it's, and i don't know, i, i, to perhaps the global south who have come a completely against israel in the current conflict. the idea of a nova music festival on that day beside the law just opening a prism cam. hey in the world, according to the british prime minister dave cameron. well, i mean, what goes through their minds in a society which could have a music festival by the rules of an offer of a camp. i mean, i don't know whether explain why we with a zone of interest is relevant to you. the great trouble about the nazis living near the house you it's, which was because eventually liberated by the soviet union. i mean, i'll tell you 2 things. first about the nova festival, i was asking about that. why was that happening there?

and people telling me it was happening there because these festivals creates a huge amount of noise pollution, and nobody wants that noise pollution. so what they did, they did it in that area, which is a sort of mt does a and they directed all the noise to what's going so because who cares about noise pollution? to go. so now if you think about the young people in garza who attract the in, that's kind of get to be behind fences and, and so forth. for them. they may also want to be in a festival like that, but they're not allowed to be in that. and so i don't think the people who are organizing the 1st of all, even thoughts about that before we break it. we can pollute noise toward garza. so it does show a complete indifference toward persistence. and that is very much present in israel as for sort of interest look, i mean i'm not

a big fan of comparisons with the nazis, not by the people who support. uh, is there any policies and say from us at like the ninety's and not the people who i guess is there any policies and say base rates or like the nazis and that's no of our streets. it's a very particular case, and who the 1st was a very the common down to is portrayed in that movie was if a particular case you can make all kind of powers. but we don't need to compare with the articles. we can say that the jealous of the actions taken care and gone so as to where in many other cases in rwanda, in cambodia, in and again see, i mean is we don't needs to go directly to the genocide to uh, condemn. what is what was doing, but that's what is the reason for doing it specifically is because as you said, the creation of is very loud itself came out of the house of that,

which would then allows of course, one also to be able to remind people about the war, so we'll get through uprising and the bravery of the jews fighting the nazis. and then looking do of course palestinian resistance groups and solidarity groups fighting as the justified under united nation resolution to using arms against their occupies absolutely. this is it. i mean, this is why this situation, i mean 1st of all, it's tragic, but it's also failed with many on if you have to remember that the genocide convention itself came into force very much and response to what they don't see fit to the truth in world war 2 and to have the state of israel. now, being accused of that is, is, it is horrifying to many is read these. but the fact of the matter is that according to the finish, and what, as far as doing though, can easily be seen as well. as that, and the same is with

a question of assistance. you're absolutely right. and it's not only resistance to the nazis. the, the, the heads of the having both the, the left and the right in israel, where resistance fights us as they saw it during the 19 fifties and for these, against the british rule. and nothing big in was the head of the of the is going of the um uh what's called in higg over and it shows yes, absolutely. and so they certainly thought that it was the rights to fight for their own liberation and self determination as a people. but when put a stand is oppose is ready to oppression in occupied territories. they can only call them terrorist that's, that's the big on any of that. it's impossible today for most is really nice to understand. the purpose thing is resisting the pressure, which as you say, is legal by international. just finally we had done the i on the former deputy,

the foreign minister of israel, and the show. he said it'd be quite simple if the 2000000 of guys i just vacated and went to design. i does it for a while. do you see israel as imploding a given what we've been seeing these the past 10 or so months? well, it's not including at the moment and i don't expect the end of israel, what i think may happen. and i hope it doesn't, but what i think may happen is that if this was not stopped in what is doing now, what will be created is a full blown contact system. that's what nothing, you know, been very small to each of the people around them. that's what they want to people say, it's already that well i, i would say that certainly the westbank isn't a perfect system. that a positive system is sort of seeping into israel. we saw it even before the war doing the, the, the, the protests against the traditional cool in the 1st part of 2023. and i think it

may become much worse because now things on the west bank are getting fine, was it? so in a sense, israel wants to turn guys into the west bank and wants it to be with bank into guys, and it's using very similar techniques and but a in a profit state can exist any may exist for the code to decades 3 decades. it will become increasingly isolated, impoverished, many people will leave it, and eventually, i think you will implode, they will implode in the says, maybe a little bit like south africa that it will change. and it will become eventually, hopefully to stay for the citizens. but that may take a very long time, and a great deal of blood will be shredded before it happens. professor, i'm about to thank you. thank you. and that's it for the show. i'll continue condolences to those very value. okay, you as you, i'm genocide,

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