the or even and nothing is significant consequences. the, the symmetry seems endless. a real city of a dead where it's very easy to get lost. similar graveyards now exist in iraq and afghanistan. they may soon appear in ukraine with thousands of square kilometers of already being contaminated with deadly dust. for the next 4 and a half 1000000000 years, the i would rate my uh, 2 years in pakistan as a, perhaps the most exciting period of my career. i went to the soviet union when i came back it was collapsed and to 15 pods. so. so if my friends often hold me responsible for breaking into foreign policy needs to be named. sometimes you may need to make the point gently, sometimes,

forcefully somewhere on perhaps 2008. then the us, you need for the moment ended in a world where you don't have a global policeman telling you what to do. some countries coming together from conversations on issues india, which has to be on the high table india is an important voice. it cannot be not the hello and welcome my name is on. if i'm kid ready, come to my shoulder for the next oven. i. we will discuss all these in the potter with a very special guest is a prominent diplomat that has served in various capacities including as the high commission of to 5 years time and canada. they come, i do decide to do. thank you very much and have a great to be here. joey. bas, sorry, a is a former indian diplomats with a career spending over 3 decades. he holds

a bachelor's degree in economics from the university of delhi and earned an m. b, a in calcutta. he later got his 2nd master's and public policy from princeton. his 1st posting was in moscow in 1988 mister bas, sorry, a has served as india as ambassador to poland done with you. and yet, he's also served as a high commissioner to canada. and as india is last high commissioner to pakistan with his tenure overseeing a particularly challenging period of relations between new delhi on this loan, about a jelly pa, sorry, a speak several languages, isn't of it? yogi. his 1st book was published earlier this year. were you already wanting to be a diplomat? right, but 1st of all, great to be here. i've seen you in the movies so great to see you in person may have admired the movies and i often feel that the diplomats should learn, acting because of and you need to act in the global states. i think they all did do a good job. yeah. you know, i, i had it at the back of my mind the, i,

because my father was in the government. so i wanted to explore being in the government. i did do an m b. i explored possibly doing either could it is. but then what attracted me to government and the phone service was to be part of the, in the story and to work on a logic canvas because i had a sense even early in my twenties that you know, be in good story is going to be a good one and it would be exciting to be part of india is join in a more direct way by being part of government your 1st posted in the, in, in messing most good back in 1988. and since then, you have an impressive could you, how is it like being that i believe you speak russian, i do, i do speak some russian and i in fact van to my 1st posting in the phone service b r o blaze. it's mandatory to learn a foreign language and mine was russian. so i went to my school university for

a year. my job was to learn the language, which i did not. you know, how much time did you learn language? it's an emotion cost that we did. so it's about 8 to 9 months my i acquired a good deal of fluency and then we learned off the streets. so you know, you're in most and that background. so i did speak the language fairly read. so it was again, a very interesting time because i was posted in most cool, and in my formative years in diplomacy from 1988 to 91. how many vehicles are you there in moscow? so i was the 3, you see, one of which i spent learning the language and the other 2, you know, looking at the embassy and the political being and the economic coming. and i went to the soviet union. when i came back, it was collapsed into 15 bucks, and so some of my friends often hold me responsible for breaking it up. i believe you bought incident, i will do the story behind it. i guess i just joys my parents when they happened to

be in seen a good when i was born. so it was my father was in a transferable job. and i was born in she no good because he was managing all india radio and as in india now and, and she now goes, so i was born there. and it so happened that i moved from there to mom, but at the age of 3, and i had no memories of, or seen or got and crush me. but i did go dad much later when i was already in service. so i couldn't go that to the terrorism is only in this century. i got an opportunity to revisit the place of my books and uh, the opinions before that then uh and the partition in fact, this time. no, it, it so happened. that's my mother. as a child a renter and stayed in the hard because my grandfather was posted there for a couple of guys around 1942. so that was just her

experience in going to school in the heart and but the family belonged very much during the day, but from what the dish will do in the story. they used to tell you of the independence partition, all fucked. his time. yes. so my mother had some very interesting stories to tell me. 1942 is her a clear memory of the quitting that moment? let me see would see the processions of part of total. and she never heard about buck a stop me. because you know, the focused on the holidays or lucian had been boss in 1940, but it wasn't a big thing. so in the forty's in, in her stories, she hadn't really heard of this concept of focused on this. she had gone to right loading and her happiest memories was but of a trip. the family took the money, the hidden station and they ran to up to abide and travelled all over. so i often say that in, in the forty's,

this was the most integrated region in the world. you could travel from run going to all the way to shower vape, no visas and a bay. but so this about the family members that they could travel over this past land and then you became the commissioner of in progress time. and then the most trouble of the times. in fact, that has been no, i commission enough to your tenure to how well you're dealing with it. yes. you know, so i would rate my 2 years and buckets time of the but that's the most exciting period of my career because, you know, working in a conflict environment is always a challenge and, but it's also very exciting. and mid threes is many diplomatic possibilities. i was then a 2 years and one of the better docs is a funding for an individual night in buckets on me is that during the day there is a fairly low facility, but then the afternoon you could meet be meeting with diplomatic colleagues and

then there's a good deal of friendship and in the evening of a glass of wine or risky, you are very friendly right? with the common people or people who haven't got nothing to do with government. so that is a better docs that did as a such a good deal. of posterity, but also such a good deal of friendliness and just go to look for that to you are speaking the same language, liking the same food and so on. so i think this, that adults defines a diplomats rule impact this fun. i also went to a tough and hostile period and i think good that as bad as some degree of creative diplomacy is required because even at a time when the host of government is very against your pay and government, you, some doors are open, do have quite conversations in quiet diplomacy and to understand what is happening,

what do you think is the basic problem of focused on with india? if you asked me to name one fact to me, i would say it's focused on identity crisis. that while india, uh at, but very rapidly developed an identity, develop the constitution within 3 years of independence and had the benefit of leaders. but some continued to focus fund did not have the same good fortune. it's early leaders passed away and you know, died in 1940 the aid, cut the lucon, the 1st 5 minutes, the best way, 1951 and boxed on could not develop a constitution for itself too much later. so even it developed the constitution in 1956, but that was abrogated by 58. when are you a condo military dictator, to go? so the centered problem became the capture off the bucket stand by the elite, in this case, the immediately who has captured the country and continued to rule it for all these

tickets and have distorted what focused on could have become in my view. so i think this is a fundamental structural problem that focused on face that it became an abnormal country run by an army lead, which was intent on promoting its own interest rather than the interest of the people in yet. i would say that in the last few years, it has been no media that is at tech in the last 10 years to be very besides what has changed your be for us, you know, you would record from the ninety's that isn't became a major issue less impact on the eighty's for us than been job the ninety's and push me from the 2 thousands all the way and then we never had a very good on. so for that, we would, you know, not react perhaps with force. and even after going nuclear in

1998 to it, even in 2008, india did not react strongly to the moment later. what has changed now is that we have a different bus tour of active defense. there's certainly an effort to, uh, to strengthen that says from within which means have strong counter infiltration. counterterrorism grades within your move in crush me for instance, to prevent service from coming in, but also a pro active or active defense. but to which means you are willing to take the battle across the borders in hot pursuit of the status in 2016. the reacting to already, it was reinforced in 2019 when after the pl walmart deck, the biological a, strikes took place. so now here was in india, that is was setting up strategic deterrence or the governance against standard, isn't it? the message was that if there was incidents, so for

a certain scale take place, india will again, cross the border and react. so for the focused on me, the policy of mounting terrorism, which was a low cost policy now became an expensive business because now it was clear that if you launch an attack, be retaliation should be, would be such that you, you could go to water. you could, would have to react, so they, with the 2nd cost. and that certainly is part of the reason that there's been a dramatic drop in cross border terrorism. it's not been eliminated. it's taken on different funds, but there has been a significant drop. and i think that is an achievement of government results to address this question in a clear headed. why do you think the governments were not interesting and advocating article to 70 when i think um, certainly for the beach it be, it was on the manifesto. it was on the cards and it was certainly

a goal to be achieved. but even the b, b a n d, a government could not achieve it in the early upsize in a bunch of these guys because it was in india, a government that was a coalition government. that was a coalition common minimum program of the india. and this was not a priority, but i think that was clarity even in watched by his mind. and uh, and in other lead his mind that once that it would be a majority, it gave the opportunity to have optical, $370.00 a aggregated. and i think it was a decision that was waiting for the moment that a party had a clear majority. and a strategy, i think integrating your mortgage mean was a very important move. and more than that, having the strategy of counterterrorism counted infiltration to ensure that off to that optical, $370.00 moves, they would know blood shit on

a large scale. because as you would recall, there was a conversation that if i had to go 370 would be to move, they would be live as a black and english me. but none of that happens because it was well planned well executed. and i think the by the benefit of hindsight of the last 5 years, certainly a successful policy both in terms of stabilizing the state to jim when kush me and in terms of giving a clear answer to cross border terrorism. yeah, because i come from the same area and i feel that it is beneficial to the people of course need the business is i'm climbing into the infrastructure as has been yet when are they going to 70 was able to in the parliament there was a total position from southern section of yeah, i think it was a political conversation and that was a political move because article $370.00 was more of the move and it was more than

just a political move. it was also linked to security foreign policy. and i think it served all those interest me when we finally got it done. and i think now there is a reasonable consensus in the country that it was a good move. and that now we move to the next stage, perhaps of the healing touch. and you're moving crush me to rapidly moving towards stability and normal seat. so that brings me to the next, were sent off to this dump them to some of the with the 2nd longest serving pm, a friend is this continued to good for india on the phone. and the policy point certainly is we are now living in an age of a very turbulent, where much is changing into, well that is, that are conflicts that are, you know, i'm moving towards a multi polarity and therefore foreign policy needs to be named. so i think this

government has been successful in very nimbly negotiating the world and improving in does have the end stature by mr. more the has the external affairs minister, jason good, who understands the game and plays it very well. and the personal chemistry that the prime minister himself enjoys with this continued the that's a cut all of the advantage of it that you'll develop. but still chemistry in personal relationships with will lead us and that helps you as with annotated step . now he's representing a 4 trillion dollars economy, with a huge kind of pest in the world, in economic terms. so for this as an example, the rest issue relationships in, in what is called the middle east, but the, we, but the bid. so there may be, those are some new innovations in, in policy that the closeness of that relationship pets in the,

in multiple moves. and you've said that in and diplomats are more confident in the more data. why do you feel that they represent the country that is more confident that they represent the country with the leadership is consistent than giving a certain message uh to the, to the world, to the people. and they have clear instructions and, and it helps that you know, in goes on. baba is growing in does have to such that india as voice is heard on a hi tables globally with are you talking about climate or trade or the global order or the g 20. so i think oh that hands of for a clear message to go to the diplomats to act with confidence and to be able to uh, you know, represent the name to that is more confident in one of your opinion. pieces you wrote about a month, people avoid and india of wanting to be on the board. how much is for them and

association good already done that for that would. so i think he has a 19 good india has because you know, this process has gone on. i would argue, since the ninety's, because 90 is after the soviet union collapsed to be moved from a bipolar world to a uni polar world for the event that us was the on the act and down and somewhere on perhaps 2008. then the us, you need for the moment ended and we are moving towards a new order which might be most people. and india is making the point that in the future as an aspiring power, we would like to be a potent. we wouldn't like a word of it, which slaps his back into being a bipolar, what with china and russia aligned against the wrist? or uh, you know, a word bad in his voice is not hood. and so i think we have been very active in terms of the taking the g 20 as an example. that is an organized a is

a body which tries to speak for the world in which economics matter, the economic major economies matter and essentially make the point that uh in, in this, uh, uh, well, the way it is going in the future. the major economies like india, need to have a strong say in the direction in which it as well. so how important are 4 months like big send this to you for the multiple of like, i think they are important. and i think what has happened in this most people are what is that you have new will formulation like big says seal and as i but so before those like i do, you do in, in rest issue and so on the board. so these are on issue based coalition, so they come together in a world where you don't have a global policemen telling you what to do. some countries come together here with the, you know, of conversations on issues breaks, for instance, them together for

a conversation on economic issues for the middle of the bible stuff. i made a buzz that represented. so i think that is the kind of, uh, what would be the move to uh, the uh, countries will have issue based alliances. some of them the space, some of them will for you to we. and we will question this world, or the which is presided over by the united nations, which we feel hasn't delivered enough in terms of providing be since a go to the, to the was so or done. it is really much. but we don't know which way it's hated except bad for you know, that india should have a say in the bottom in the suggestion. good. now conducts or knowledge. so uh, open about his point of view is which makes us proud of. we never used to have somebody who would say, who we call a, we call them out. is that a deliberate attempt to do that or it's

a personality trait off of a problem. and this, this, i think, i think it's a boat, it certainly represents the new india, which is making its point. yeah. to the world. and it's a confident new india and therefore it, he is the voice often of that new india. and therefore he has to make the point about in his views and is very difficult about it. absolutely. so sometimes you may need to make the point gently, sometimes, forcefully, sometimes, and behind closed doors, sometimes publicly. so i think the, the point needs to be made and the broad, the point that is emerging is that india, which has to be on the high table india, is an important voice. it cannot be, not traditionally, it's called list of products. where do you see in the, in the next decade? well, i think the india is moving in

a positive direction. the stated objective of freedom to is to bring prosperity to its people, right? the we want to be a mix and part of that developed by that, developed in debt by 2047. and what does that mean? that essentially means we need growth. be ongoing at 6 to 8 percent feed. possibly want to grow and a blade of 8 to 10 percent and bring prosperity for a people and a folder and policy will be oriented towards leveraging the world to facilitate this phase of india. and it will be a peaceful and benign race in asia. as compared to the belligerent tries of china, see me, but it will be something that would be good for the world. and i think good therefore endeavors get more more partnerships, deeper partnerships, and be able to, uh, engage in a might be aligned we with russia with the best and power is with floor and

maximize the economic benefits for itself, but also be a force for stability. underwood. great. so what are your future plans? well, i've just written one book and i've been talking about it in different florida, and this is the book which includes an angry men and that's right. it's called anger management, and it's been released this year. and it's, it's, it's essentially a story of the india pakistan relationship and in a sense, any hostile relationship, but door to the prism of diplomacy or from the eyes of diplomats, not just my experience isn't focused on, but also of my 20 for read this. i says, well, a high commission, those are investors from india to pakistan from 1947 to 2017 when ever and i hope the right to another. and i'm working as a corporate consultant that move to the private sector. so i'm having a lot of fun done with that. i'm did it take take you do like this book?

well i to me, i would say about 2 hours a day for 4 years. and because i have a to take book, it's 540 pages, and it's the amount of movie that i've done in for the i read 40. exactly. i see. i see where your, your, uh, over is much more impressive because, you know, each movie would have had a lot of, uh, lots for it and diaz is going into it. so, but, you know, i, i enjoyed the process of, uh, writing this book and researching it. of multiple foot notes, i hope to write another one, and i'm also a distinguished fellow at the observer research foundation. so doing some research in trying to understand this. well, now that i'm out of government, i'm at a distance, so it's good to look at the word from a distance and comment on it as an activist. thank you, ms. as it. thank you. thank you very much. 0 my here and

a thank you for watching to join me next week as we uncover newly in yet another debate. and let's talk about it. i'm on a problem kit would buy the the, if you was thinking about russia, what is your mind the picture, the landscapes open up before your eyes? the last one does, can you imagine the,

the discounts dodge the journey? the, the, you ready to come along the, after the nazis bower in italy, states foreign policy became extremely aggressive. benito mussolini needed glorious victories. he decided to achieve his ambitions in africa. despite the fact that formally libya had become an alien colony back in 1912. the vast territories of this country were not actually controlled by rome. the nazis decided to put an end to this. but as soon as the religious order of the senate side stood in their way, the arabs did not want to submit to foreign power and put up peers, resistance,

dividers against colonialism were led by the sheets of this m a side order. omar l move star, who is nick named the lion of the desert for his incredible courage. despite the violent, bombardments and boys in gas usage, mass deportations and the imprisonment of the local population in constance racing canvas. the invaders good not talk with the arrow patriots for a decade. in 1931, omar l moves are, was captured and sentenced the hanging at the trial. the hero of the libyan people behaved very bravely and rejected. pardon? pursuing a policy of genocide, italy was only able to temporarily suppress libya, 18th of the entire population. more than 100000 b boats fail victim to their. however, just a few years later the entail you enroll, collapsed. in 1951, libya became one of the 1st countries in africa to gain independence

the point where you as well as well that is good to see what we can send in some of the most single slide, the creation of the task. ok. you got to you got to you can look to see the postal, duddy, a little quick look at that more than enough storage air conditioning, whether it's a total on the 15. yeah. well, the other stuff, and i do see that there's reasoning, they don't pay mean. yeah. well the business that i've had or the

the which i thought there were some openings just as the slug restaurants come right now. let's show the 1st thing to look. you agree, mr. late, the post is all the 50 is that i it's a, get them on you. some other students need which is easy to saw on the screen. so as i said, just for material, which is the non willing identify to lock up, the game is oregon which will screw well in the middle of something in the week. it brings you to not the beginning of the results. ok. between you and nick, to bundle with a solution for children. i'm comfortable in which we want you to city on september the

i'm actually under attendance here. welcome back to going underground. broadcasting all around the world from u. a. e. today marks one year since the palestinian resistance launch operation. alexa, flood of to decades is really a pod tie that the cleansing and brutal occupation is re allow him to the teeth with us u. k. u weapons and encouraged to carry out self defense in return carried out to genocide, perhaps hundreds of thousands of palestinians in gaza, mostly women and children have been slaughtered. today's guest is doctor michael shuler, a former c. i a officer who spent 22 years in the agency where he led the counterterrorism center has been non and station he anonymously or the.