save the most criminal odors, the ethnic cleansing, and streets are named off to them. this is a problem that will categorically prevent you crane from joining the european union . we do not accept countries in the you do not give up the nationalist passed a nationalist heroes. the 1943, but when you're masika, sol, some 100000 polls modify ukrainian nation us and i've sent in a stumbling block in relations between the neighboring countries before leaving office as recreating in foreign minnesota. dimitri pull out the tools to stand alone a visit to his last month. he refused to explain whether the victims 4 days would faint re punctuated to po, box and not flash from was. now some of the shape our compatriots must be buried and ukraine must understand the dark sides of its history. it is poland that we'll decide the closure of the next chapters of ukraine's negotiations with the e. you could also, it is better that ukraine resolve the issue of exclamation as soon as possible in

the spirit of gratitude to poland for what we are doing for today. up and just that's a devout also is also i'm good by the influx of ukrainian refugees and agricultural products who just palm is reports of the planning to receive, randi is on the pool to cover that markets. thanks. lots and with much include framing, great. despite most of public commitment to health care of some partners, politicians all raising concerns over the scope of that age. even as brussels attempt to silence. last, i'm easily send it's expedition will force is to the eastern front. it was in no 9, sorry for the wash or so do on site or a mason brown. good. i'm see your golf in the media. you 3 played with is maneuver . who are you, your cell originally going to fight for whatever cause they're in ukraine? by all means go there. god bless you,

but don't take everybody else is with you don't to mayor brown or you already use the browse up for you're not helping ukraine by prolonging this war. you're not helping ukraine. young people who were looking for sheltering q 40. okay. within their own company and to the mid historian, i'm calling to tell you to stephen guy. it says kids unwillingness to recognize the mistakes of its past as light keeps a st. correlations between ukraine and potent different father. on one hand, phones is supporting you crazy. busy basically, supporting nato calls against russia, but of the other hand, they are very dissatisfied with the way that the ukrainian and all sorted these are reading history. ukraine old joined the european union either way,

but wanted to extract is deteriorating sion of relations between ukrainian and wallace. governments and i do expect for citizens to be more vocal about this trying to see and then this. um lets say inventing of a new history where you pray is don't see anything. i'm talking about. the great, i'm sorry these don't see anything wrong with a boy. i find the nazi collaborators who have committed genocide against the forest people. some of the stories that we're keeping an eye on here on the plentiful, i've won. ok so you don't come. it doesn't go anywhere quite yet, but the part about multiplier to didn't just place it, it was about it mistakes episode of and that's enjoy the

or i would rate my studios in bucket sign as a perhaps the most exciting period of my career. i went to the soviet union when i came back, it was collapsed into 15 bucks. so some of my friends often holding me responsible for breaking into foreign policy needs to be named. sometimes you may need to make the point gently, sometimes, forcefully somewhere on perhaps 2008. then the us you need for the moment ended in a was where you don't have a global policeman telling you what to do. some countries comes to get the phone conversations on issues india, which has to be on the high table. india is an important voice. it cannot be the

to hello and welcome my name is on. if i'm case very come to my shoulder for the next oven. i, we will discuss all these in the potted with a very special guest is a prominent diplomat and has subbed in various capacities, including as the high commission of 2 boxes, time and canada. they come, i decided to do. thank you very much. i know from the great to be here, joy bizarre to you, is a former indian diplomats with a career spending over 3 decades. he holds a bachelor's degree in economics from the university of delhi and earned an m. b, a in calcutta. he later got his 2nd master's and public policy from princeton. his 1st posting was in moscow in 1988. mister bas, sorry, a has served us in d as in foster to poland. let you, amy, he's also served as the high commissioner to canada and as india is last high commissioner to pakistan with his tenure overseeing a particularly challenging period of relations between new delhi on this loan about

a jelly bossard speak several languages. and isn't of it? yogi, his 1st book was published earlier this year, were you always wanting to be a diplomat? right, but 1st of all, great to be here. i've seen you in the movies so great to see you in person may have admired the movies and i often feel that the diplomats should learn acting because often you need to act in the global states. i think the all the do a good job. yeah. so, you know, i, i had it at the back of my mind the, i, because my father was in the government. so i wanted to explore being in the government. i did do an m b i explored possibly doing advocate is. but then what attracted me to government and the part of the service was to be part of the in the story and to work on a logic canvas. because i had a sense even early in my twenties that do not be in good story, is going to be

a good one. and it would be exciting to be part of in as join in a more direct way by being part of government. your 1st posted in the, in the messing mosque would back in 1988. and since then you have an impressive good idea of how is it like being that i believe you speak russian. i do, i do speak some russian a and i in fact event my 1st posting in the foreign service, be artful blaise. it's mandatory to learn a foreign language and mine was russian. so i went to my school university for a year. my job was to learn the language, which i did not. you know, how much time did you learn language? it's an emotion costs that we did. so it's about 8 to 9 months. my, i acquired a good deal of fluency and been below and off the streets so you know, you're immersed in that background so i did speak the language fairly read. so it was again, a very interesting time because i was posted in most cool, in my formative years in diplomacy from 1980 to 91. how many millions were you

there in moscow? so i was the 3, you see, one of which i spent the learning, the language, and the other 2, you know, looking at the embassy and the political being and the economic coming. and i went to the soviet union. when i came back, it was collapsed into 15 bucks, and so some of my friends often holding me responsible for breaking it up. i believe you bought it and send another we'll do the story behind it. i guess i just joys my parents when they happened to be in seen a good when i was born. so it was my father was an a transfer but a job and was born in she no good because he was managing all india radio and as in india now and, and she now goes, so i, i was born there. and it so happened that i moved from there to may at the age of 3, and i had no memories of a she never got and catch me, but i did go dad much later when i was already in service. so i couldn't go the,

to, the better them is only in this century. i got an opportunity to revisit the place of my but, and the opinions before that the, and the partition. in fact, this time. no, it, it so happened. that's my mother. as a child of rent and stayed in the hoard because my grandfather was posted there for a couple of years around 1942. so that was just her experience in going to school in the heart. and but the family belonged very much during the day, but from what the dish will do, the story they use to tell you of the and the bins partition off fuck this time. yes. so my mother had some very interesting stories to tell me. 1942 is heard, a clear memory of the quick didn't get a moment, let me see, would see the processions of part of total. and she never heard about buck

a stop me. because you know, the focused on the holidays. a lucian had been boss in 1914, but it wasn't a big thing. so in the forty's, in, in her stories, she hadn't really heard of this concept of focused on this. she had gone to right loading. and her happiest memories was but of a trip. the family took to money the hidden station and they ran to up to abide and travelled all over. so i often say that in, in the forty's, this was the most integrated region in the world. you could travel from run going to all the way to the shower vape, no visas and a bay. but so this about the family members that they could travel over this vast land. and then you became the i commissioner of in progress time. and then the most trouble with the times. in fact that has been no, i commission enough to your to new to how what you're dealing with it. yes. you know, so i would rate my 2 years and fuck

a sign of the perhaps the most exciting period of my career because, you know, working in a conflict environment is always a challenge and, but it's also very exciting. and mid threes is many diplomatic possibilities. i was then a 2 years and one of the better docs is a funding for an individual night in buckets on me is that during the day there is a fairly low facility in the afternoon. you could meet, be meeting with diplomatic colleagues and there's a good deal of friendship. and in the evening of, uh, uh, glasses of wine or risky, you are very friendly, right? with the common people or people who haven't got nothing to do with government. so that is a better dogs that did as a such a good deal of posterity, but also such a good deal of friendliness and this go to the affinity of speaking the same language, liking the same food and so on. so i think this bad adults defines

a diplomats rule, impact is fine. i also went to a tough and hostile period. and i think that as bad as some degree of creative diplomacy is required. because even at a time when the host of government is very against your opinions, government, you, some doors are open, do have quite conversations in quiet diplomacy and to understand what is happening . what do you think is the basic problem of focused on with india? if you asked me to name one fact to me, i would say it's buckets, tons, identity crisis. that while india, uh, at the but very rapidly developed in identity develop the constitution within 3 years of independence and had the benefit of leaders. but some continued to focus on did not have the same good fortune. it's early lead us passed away. july died in

90 for the aid, cut that the con, the 1st 5 minutes the bus to be in 1951 and focused on could not develop a constitution for itself too much later. so even it developed the constitution in 1956. but that was aggregated by 58. when are you a condo military dictator to go? so the center problem became the capture of pakistan by the elite in this case, be immediately who have captured the country and continue to rule it for all these tickets and have distorted what focused on could have become in my view. so i think this is a fundamental structural problem that focused on face that it became an abnormal country run by an army lead, which was intent on promoting its own interest rather than the interest of the people in yet. i would say that in the last few years,

it has been no media that is attack and the last 10 years to be very besides what has changed, you'll be for us, you know, you would record from the ninety's, dated as them became a major issue, rest the impact on the eighty's 1st and then job the ninety's and crush me from the 2 thousands all the way and then we never had a very good on. so for that, we would, uh, you know, not react perhaps with force. and even after going nuclear in 1998 to it, even in 2008, india did not react strongly to the moment later. what has changed now is that we have a different bus, joe of an active defense. that's certainly an effort to, to strengthen the says from within which means have strong counter infiltration. counterterrorism grades within your move in crush me for instance, to prevent service from coming in. but also

a pro active or active defense bus 2. which means you are willing to dig the battle across the borders in hot pursuit of the status in 2016. the reacting to really, it was reinforced in 2019 when after the pl walmart deck, the biological a, strikes took place. so now here wasn't even do that is was setting up strategic deterrence or the governance against standard, isn't it? the message was that if there was incidents, so for a certain scale big place in deal with, again across the board to india. so for the focused on me, the policy of mounting terrorism, which was a low cost policy now became an expensive business, because now it was clear that if you launch an attack, the retaliation should be, would be such that you, you could go to water. you could, would have to react, so there was a 2nd cost. and that's certainly spot of the reason that there's been

a dramatic drop in across the border terrorism. it's not been eliminated. it's taken on different funds, but there has been a significant drop. and i think that is an achievement of government results to address this question in a clear headed way. why do you think the governments were not interesting and advocating article to 70? well i think um, certainly for the beach it be, it was on the manifesto. it was on the cards and it was certainly going to be achieved. but even the b, b a n d, a government could not achieve it in the early of size and advisory these guys because it was in india, a government that was a coalition government. that was a coalition common minimum program of the india. and this was not a priority, but i think that was clarity even in watched by his mind. and uh,

and in other lead his mind that once state would be a majority, it gave the opportunity to have optical $370.00 a aggregated. and i think it was a decision that was waiting for the moment that a party had a clear majority and a. busy strategy, i think integrating your mortgage mean was a very important move and more than that, having the strategy of counterterrorism. content infiltration to ensure that off to that article 370 moves, they would know blood shit on a large scale because as you would recall, there was a conversation that if i to go 370 would be to move, they would be live as a black and english me, but none of that happens because it was well planned, real executed. and i think the, by the benefit of hindsight of the last 5 years, certainly a successful policy,

both in terms of stabilizing the state to jump on catch me. and in terms of giving a clear answer to cross border terrorism. yeah, because i come from the same area and i feel that it has beneficial to the people of crush me. uh, the business is climbing into the infrastructure as has and yet when are they going to 70 was able to in the parliament there was a total position from southern section of yeah, i think it was a political conversation and that was a political move because article 370 was more of the move and it was more than just a political move. it was also linked to security foreign policy. and i think it served all those interest me when we finally got it done. and i think now there is a reasonable consensus in the country that it was a good move. and that now we move to the next stage, perhaps of the healing touch and india moving christian made so rapidly moving

towards stability and norman see. so that brings me the next russian officer, this done problem to some of the with, with the 2nd longest serving pm of and is this continued to good for india and the phone and policy? it certainly is, we are now living in an age of a very turbulent, where much is changing in the world. that is, that are conflicts that are, you know, moving towards a multi polarity and therefore foreign policy needs to be named. so i think this government has been successful in very nimbly negotiating the world and improving india is have the end stature by mr. more the has the external affairs administered jason good, who understands the game and plays it very well. and the personal chemistry that the prime minister himself enjoys with this continued p. that's a cut all of the advantage of it that you'll develop, but still chemistry and personal relationships with will lead to us. and that helps

who is with annotated step. now, he's representing a 4 trillion dollars economy, with a huge kind of pest in the world. in economic terms, so for this as an example, the rest issue relationships in, in what is called the middle east, but the, you, we, but the vid. so there may be, those are some new innovations in, in policy that the closeness of that relationship pets in the, in multiple moves. and you've said that in diplomats are more confident and the more the why do you feel that they represent the country that is more confident that they represent the country where the leadership is consistent and giving us a message to go to the world to the people and they have clear instructions and, and it helps that, you know, and goes on. baba is growing india's health to such that india is voice is heard on

the high table globally by the you're talking about climate or trade, or the global order or the g 20. so i think all that helps uh for a clear message to go to the diplomats to act with confidence and to be able to uh, you know, represent the name to that is more confident in one of your opinion pieces you wrote about a multiple level and do you have one thing to be on the board? how much it is for them and association? good already done that for that one. i think he has and i think india has because, you know, this process has gone on. i would argue, since the ninety's, because 90 is after the soviet union collapsed to be moved from a bipolar world to or unipolar world for the in the us was the on the act and down and some better on perhaps 2008. then the us, you only pull

a moment ended and we are moving towards a new order which might be multiple. and bingo is making the point that in the future as an aspiring power, we would like to be a potent. we wouldn't like a word of it, which slaps his back into being a bipolar what with china and russia aligned against the wrist? or uh, you know, a word bad in his voice is not good. and so i think we have been very active in terms of it taking the g 20 as an example. that is an organized a is a body which tries to speak for the world in which economics matter, the economic major economies matter and essentially make the point that uh in, in this, uh, uh, well the way it is going into future. the major economies like india, need to have a strong say in the direction in which it as well. so how important are 4 months

like big send this to you for the multiple of like, i think they're important. and i think what has happened in this by the people, what is that? do you have new will formulation like big says seal and as i but so before those like i do, you do in, in rest issue and so on the board. so these are on a show based coalition, so they come together in a world where you don't have a global policemen telling you what to do. some countries come together and every is no uh, you know, a phone conversation that issues no breaks for instance, came together for a conversation on economic issues for the middle of the bible stuff. i mean, it was that it represented. so i think that is the kind of, uh, what would be the move to uh, the uh country is we'll have issue based alliances. some of them the space, some of them will for you to be. and we will question this world order, which is presided over by the united nations,

which we feel hasn't delivered enough in terms of providing peace and security to the world. so or done, it is really much, but we don't know which way it's hated. except that we know that india shouldn't have us in the bottom, in this position. good. now conducts or knowledge. so uh, open about his point of view is which makes us proud of. we never used to have somebody who would say, who we call a we call them out. is that a deliberate attempt to do that? or it's a personality trait off of a photo minister. i think i think it's a boat. it certainly represents the new india, which is making its point. yeah. so the world uh and its a confident new india and therefore it, he is the voice often of the new india. and therefore he has to make the point about india as views and is very articulate about it. absolutely. so sometimes you

may need to make the point gently, sometimes, forcefully, sometimes in behind closed doors, sometimes publicly. so i think the, the point needs to be made and the broad, the point that is emerging is that india, which has to be on the high table india, is an important voice. it cannot be not. so the show is called, let's talk about it. where do you see in the, in the next decade? well, i think the india is moving in a positive direction. this dated objective of freedom to is to bring prosperity to its people like the we want to be a big part of the, developed by that developing that by 2047. and what does that mean? that essentially means we need growth. be ongoing at 6 to 8 percent feed. possibly want to grow and a blade of 8 to 10 percent and bring prosperity for our people. and our phone and

policy will be oriented towards leveraging the world to facilitate this phase of freedom. and it will be a peaceful and benign rise in asia as compared to the village of entrees of china sea. but it will be something that would be good for the world. and i think therefore endeavor to get more more partnerships, deeper partnerships, and do you have a, uh, engage and a might be aligned, we with russia, with the best and power is with the board and maximize the economic benefits for itself, but also a, be a forced for stability and the word. great. so what are your future plans? well, i've just written one book and i've been talking about it in different florida. and this is the book which includes an angry man. and that's right. it's called anger management and it's been released this year. and it's, it's, it's essentially a story of the india pakistan relationship and in a sense, any hostile relationship but door to the prism of diplomacy or from the eyes of

diplomats, not just my experiences and focus on, but also of my 24 read this. i says, well, a high commission, those are investors from india to pakistan from 1947 to 2017 when ever and i hope the right to another. and i'm working as a corporate consultant that move to the private sector. so i'm having a lot of fun done with that. i'm did it take take you do like this book? well i to me, i would say about 2 hours a day for 4 years. and because i have a to take the book, it's 540 pages, and it's the amount of movie that i've done in for the i ran a 40. exactly. i see. i see you with your, your uh over is much more impressive because you know, each move we would have had a lot of, uh, lots for it and diaz is going into it. so, but you know, i,

i enjoyed the process of writing this book and researching it of multiple foot notes. i hope to write another one. and i'm also a distinguished fellow at the observer research foundation. so doing some research and trying to understand as well. now that i'm out of government, i'm at a distance, so it's good to look at the word from a distance and comment on it, the active list. thank you. and it's as if it thank you. thank you very much, 0 my here and a thank you for watching to join me next week as we uncover newly in yet another debate. and let's talk about it. i'm on the phone kit would by the that doing on august, the 6 ukrainian troops across the border and the launch the full scale and caution

that the rest as co screeching. we could, we could says we put into it the, focusing the sensitive on subjects, battelle near the border. the soldier, the scope was to several settlements. was seized with this uh, setting as well sir. so special models, the commercial subsidy, ellipse video reps. video with russian troops moved out to the battles in counterterrorism. operation regime was imposed in the course for the odds confront . they'll go out regents from a farm given to the board in a surprise that invoice reflects the motives at the last bill level of support cancelled. and you said you're very close the loop listed in the study,

the serious as an, as really strike on a residential blow pin to moscow's killed at least 7 civilians and wounded in the office. i've been in hospitals and met very serious shrapnel ways, including a boy with treadmill and big brain. and another boy with shadow in his spinal column as a 100 children are among the casualties all as well as health and nothing. and in the past 10 days, i've has put on the idea of desktop or exchange. it's like it's a comp i asked to do what is mostly legally white on ends, the government's complexity funds by that in on israel, including the people i like to jack. not just the, the licenses.