the, the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered on peter lavelle. the reception to former president zalinski so called victory plan has been tepid, and that is being generous. the fatal flaw of the plan is to fold. it doesn't focus on peace or security at the end of the day. these forest errors are the fault of washington ending, the cross that can ukraine, i'm joined by my guess. buick has making washington. he is

a professor of history at american university as well as co author with oliver stone, the untold history of the united states. also in washington, we have matthew crossed and he is a professor of national security and director of academic transformation at valley state university. and in bangkok we cross the angel, juliano. he is a political and financial analyst, art, gentleman, crosstalk rules and effects. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciated peter. if i go to you 1st and washington, as i said in my introduction, i mean the reception to the so called victory plan was quite tepid, even among it's his strongest supporters that meeting former president zalinski. but how, how would you assess what i said in my introduction? i said the fatal flaws inside does. it doesn't talk about peace. doesn't talk about security. i think that the plan was dead on arrival. that zelinski was delusional. and thinking he is going to get a better response and that it has other fatal flaws. also, in addition to the ones you highlight,

the number one it involves ukraine joining nato and later has no appetite for ukraine joining at this point. and secondly, it involves giving ukraine permission to use long range missiles from the united states, britain and others, to strike inside of russia. very deep inside of russia. and putting this in a very clear that back for us is a red line that he's not going to ignore this time and likely respond with nuclear weapons or is released into applying that that's possible. and so even by then, as of to says he's been throughout this whole thing, even bided has refused to give permission. we know that in the united states blinking and sullivan appear to be supporting so lensky and getting access to as long range missiles. but austin and the pentagon have been resisting,

and so these are, those conditions is going to fly with the united states or other western powers at this point. so the plan is not, is not viable in any way. well, massey was this kind of just intentional. i mean, there, there is no prospect for a victory for ukraine in this conflict. so you could kind of flip it around. okay. if victory is illusory, just keep it going. i mean, it's a, it's a conflict for complex sake now. but that's absolutely true, and it's something we've spoken about before in the past. i just want to add to to be just fine points as well. i was fascinated watching the aftermath, the speech where you actually had some members of the ukrainian parliament who were there live for the speech listening. and they actually made comments of. well, the paraphrase they're saying basically are almost became like political satirists on the fly because they said, i'm somewhat surprised at how, how much the ukrainian victory plan isn't really all that ukrainian there's.

there's not much ukraine in the ukrainian victory plan. and this isn't really a plan as much as a sort of ukrainian leadership regime christmas wish list given the season we're coming into. because our plan is, we need to get new tactics and new to turn the strategies a new weapon systems and new economic development plans and new status is on the global stage, a new membership and international organizations. so is this really a plan that is meant to end the war, or is it meant to prop up an existing regime while the war continues on indefinitely? yeah, and so that there seems to be an interesting cause and effect relationship here. every time zalinski goes to the united states, he leaves with a, with some cash. i mean, i, i is the victory plan is really planning his next trip. while the current administration is in power because it kind of looks like the light lighter stage. i mean, you know, we need task, we need help, you know, okay, here, you know,

didn't play stuff in your back pocket here on your way because that's the way it looked like. he was treated in the last trip to the united states angel in bangkok . whether he's treat again, this is another distraction as an excuse losing of relevance. nobody's looking bought. you clean any more and he's is desperate for attention. now we see the thing shifting to was to be released. this is much more serious. and do you have up to much, well, actually for the us use, trying the sold to try the do us as well with the shift that pull uh china and its busy would it be the least know what the collecting with needs to do is to build up a narrative because then losing face, and i think this is a we are in an inflection moment. and i think when we look back at history of the inspection moment was ukraine. uh, showing the id much bigger things are happening right now cuz of the bridge still

happening. yeah, this is going to we shape the was no, you claim is a small the do the, the wall is the last. it was not you cleaned by the weight was need to the last 8. did we need to build up a narrative to see what somehow what we didn't lose the might say was a rush of war. but at what cost did we need to fight and have a default on that? so i already came up with, i already came up with the slogan, potent didn't make it to paris. we want. okay, but that's what it is. essentially, that's what it's going to be, peter, let me go back to you and i'm much more serious. no, didn't. it's something you already have an expertise and we had zelinski. and the last few new cycles mentioned, um, you know, the demands nato or nukes. i mean, is this a sign of desperation? i mean, this is quite terrifying. anytime in a, in, in, and unfortunately the occurrence of leads in the west. i unfortunately have trivialized nuclear weapons. in my opinion, go ahead peter. yeah,

it is to lose very again, very, very dangerous. you might have seen that of the group that i nominated diona down here when the nobel peace prize as the atomic bomb survivors. and i'll be going to as well with them in december. and they are the conscious of the world in their opposition to nuclear weapons and the need for nuclear abolition. and so for the landscape, it'd be threatening now say either let us into nato or we're going to develop nuclear weapons, is just show as part of the, a sign of his desperation. but it's also shows his instability at this point. i mean, is it a desperate position? the latest report that just came out shows that ukraine has lost 10000000 people. so we use the back. when it 1991,

they had 51000000 population before the russian invasion. they have a 40000000. now they're down to $30000000.00 of my sources, say that that's even an exaggerated figure. so, and they're in desperate strain. well, and peter also gives us that maybe we're citing the same reports, but um, um, plural with the of ukrainians in europe have no intention of going back to ukraine . no matter what happens. and, you know, and russia has also lost a lot of people during this time move so that russia and, and so the situation on the east or friend is pretty desperate, very tempted. invasion incurs as, as back fired at this point. so it reports every day, the new york times had a piece on october 20th about ukrainian troops deserted. yep. because they're exhausted. they've been fighting for a long time with there's no respite. there's no real leave know replacements. and so they're in increasing

a desperate situation. i hope angelo is right and that the focus turns elsewhere, but desperate countries do desperate things now. but matthew, let me turn to be able to do it because we're running rapidly running out of time. and this block here is that, you know, when people are in a desperate situation, they do desperate things. that's what i, i disagree with angel. i think this is still a very, extremely dangerous situation, because nato is facing a strategic gloss. it doesn't like that idea, matthew, and i think that's true, but there's also a maybe another factor in terms of there's a certain way that the united states, i believe, looks at the conflict where it has an advantage for it to just sort of status quote, continue on uh, as long as the united states, it has 2 things. there are 2 major priorities for america. in this conflict is one, there shall be no american boots on the ground in ukraine fighting russians for ukrainians. that's not going to happen. and to what peter just mentioned, we must guarantee in some way,

shape or form that no party in this conflict escalates the conflict to using nuclear weapons. so if there are no american troops on the ground in ukraine, and there are no, there's no involvement of nuclear weapons. it's, there are many ways in which the continuation of the conflict is advantageous to the strategic interest of the united states. and that that can be a very powerful factor for to keep going. and android it's, it's still not, it's not impossible. this could spread. i mean we, we've seen reports that ukraine wants to pull po, rose in we, we have a lot of the social on rest in moldova. so, i mean, it's a very unstable region. go ahead in bangkok. what absolutely uh its about the stipulation disability ation. ultimately, when you look at the, the original plan, if you look at the, the rand corporation of 2019 report was about the type of was expanding, extending russia. when ultimately they, they might not win, but they weren't treating street as much damage as possible to russia. we see the

results are the result, these not positive, actually you see why shot would be much stronger in the big changes in the, in terms of warranty. all politics or china, russia is not isolated on the concrete. now we see the correct the west. moly more isolated as well. if it's absolutely too, i know it may be as, as we speak right now. the, the break summit is going on and was really interesting and i, and i think all of us here, but reflect upon this is not a lot of western coverage of what's going on in cars on right. now matthew, you want to feel that real quick one minute before we go to the break. i think that's, that's been almost a 20 year if not longer mistake by the west. that so we sort of looked at bricks as a quote unquote, pseudo or a falls or quasi international organization, and not wanting to recognize its growing importance and it's growing influence. and that's only increased exponentially in the last half doesn't 2000 years. yeah, and, and matthew, one of the big things on the,

on the agenda is dealing with the politicization of the dollar and wanting to come up with an alternative system. you know, the rest of it was a, is out of this with system. and it is made life uncomfortable, but a not intolerable also, matthew, what, what's the importance of di dollarization real quick. i've written on this actually . and that was a long time ago, but it's maintained its importance over the last 115 years in the sense that the american sort of national security ability to project power is yearly hindered if, if we can actually create an alternative system to buy matthew, i'm sorry, i have to have to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break settlement. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with

the 1937 militaristic. japan started up full scale invasion of china. the invading army was rapidly advancing. towards the capital of the republic of china, the dies, the city of nod z, leaving behind the burned down villages and thousands of the dead. on december 13th, the japanese occupied on z and stage the real massacre. for 6 weeks, the invaders exterminated the civilian population. they carried out mass executions, rates, women, and were engaged, been merciless robbery. ruthless competition of 2 officers of the imperial army. the my guy and su yoshi no doubt gained particular notoriety. they competed with each other as though who would be the fastest to kill $100.00 chinese with us. or

this monstrous competition was widely reported in the japanese press. the non g massacre claims the lives of about 300000 people and became one of the largest crimes against humanity in the world history after world or do many participants of the address at the phase trial. however, the commander of the japanese army, in the non seeing operation, freeze yasu eco, a sock gun, was able to escape the responsibility due to the interference of the american administration. the bedroom, those will be always believe that life of a full circle that all the is ups and downs india. before the british was that it just nation with the highest gdc in the word. and why did

the 100 years of british truly bring it to this low off, some 50, interacting the latest, 30 authentic and give us no deeper party. they have no right to feed my property, my idols, my gods. they went through all of our big spaces. i was see could spaces off san angelo wild and keep pointed out the spaces inside. the word lute also is i can be word which is now closing to the english, the big city. so quite selling lee. even the, in the words have been muted into the english lexical. the welcome back across that were all things are considered non peter them out to remind you were discussing ukraine.

the you don't, i mean it's already been mentioned on this program and i think we should explore it . we talking, you were using the words delusional. when it comes to the former ukranian presidents lensky. but he's really kind of at the center of all this. there is kind of a way forward and the us does it all the time is regime change. what are the possibilities of that happening? because we do know that any kind of concessions to end this conflict, which russia is made it very clear what it's going to go. shading stance is, which is unacceptable to a lot of people that are supporting zalinski and these kind of a neo nazi, neo fascist types. as often all these they have a proverbial gun to is. lensky is head, so he's stuck. but regime change is a possibility to move forward and i'm not saying by went okay,

want to make that clear to everyone. peter well, he has to be careful with regime change before the intended consequences. yeah, i know. go ahead, go there for that. usually doesn't turn out. yeah. the way you want it. in fact it's actually cala harris is main foreign policy advisor who wrote a book about regime change and says and the middle east is that it never turns out the way you want it to. and it actually strongly opposed to it so. so let's, he's in a very difficult position and he's been in a difficult position. he got elected largely on the basis of creating pc, russ it. and then it, it, the threat started to come in against them from the right wing in ukraine, death threats, and after the assassination threats. and, you know, he's it, so he's been in

a very difficult position because ukrainian society is quite divided. and now ukraine is also demoralized. the economy is in tatters of the last what a 1500000 or so possible casualties. we don't know the exact number, but a younger generation, you know, we saw had, with france and world war one. when 50 percent of the young people to in the age of 18 and 30 of young men were killed. you know, ukraine, what kind of future does it have at this point? so of course, it's desperate and calling for aid from the west. but even the west has gotten very weary of aging ukraine. there's no appetite. so it is possible that regardless of who gets elected, that we're going to see a move toward negotiations, diplomacy and peas after the selection. and that's what we're hoping for. i wish it could happen today. yeah, it'll, hopefully, it's a minute. i mean there's one possibility. i'm not putting much hope into it. matthew,

is that uh after the election uh is this was biden's war invite and is it going? okay, that's one way out with it. you know, it's a huge griffith to mean there's a so many people in the us arms manufacturers and others making so much money off of this grip there. i don't see them giving it up easily. matthew, it would be different. it would be difficult because what i mentioned before is the fact that as long as there isn't direct physical harm or sacrifice on the, on the american side is a huge economic boom. this conflict in terms of the american military industrial complex. uh, because of the services both sides, both sides of both the quinn being ukraine, but then having to restock its reserves for american national defense. so when wins on both angles with the united states congress in terms of appropriations. and that, that's a hard not to crack in terms of whoever's in the white house that's going to be a very powerful lobby that they're going to have to be dealing. yeah,

and so it'd be, even though trump says he can, if he needs 24 hours or a weekend or you know, maybe a long lunch with his advisor. i don't know. i don't put much stock into it. i think it's all political talk. it's all campaign talk here, but you know, the, if you look at there's another angle that's very important and that is europe. and i think that's something that all of you on this, on this program is spoken to me about is you know, europe stance and all of this. cuz that's where the biggest disappointments, you know, europe is certainly very tired of this conflict. but it's a leads, art. go ahead in bangkok when, when you look at the leads and get, it says, well, it's all being co opted by, by the u. s. and by the globally cities, you need to keep in mind that most mostly those in you, uh uh, going to a vetting system to eventing system. a done by to visit the group. and if you look at your region off the you up on project. oh show monday about that have started

that was the agent still actually the the, the figures, the father phones is the of the of europe. yeah. he was never you up in project was not for you, but he was actually a tool to destroy nation state. it to control you love by football from the us train, you gotta g u c o. now it, it is actually becoming more and more up to use the, the, the d, u d i n t t is not working for the interest of you well, but it's, it is actually a, a 52nd stage of the, of the west end and, and it's disposable. the us is willing to destroy europe in order to, to maintain gemini, you know it, peter, it's very interesting. i think john mearsheimer, i guess it's almost a year ago, he wrote a very interesting piece of obviously predicting the rest of it would prevail in this conflict. i think he called it an ugly victory. wretched widow, even ugly victory. i. i think there's a lot into that i would add to an end, but that would be a miserable piece as well,

that they do 2 sides of the same coin. what do you think? you know what? because when it's over, it's not really over. okay. i mean, they, they, the ukraine will remain as a nation state, it will be truncated, but there still will be elements that the us, it to us is back. that will be there and will want revenge. i mean it, when it's over, it's not really over peter. and that's partly why russia, what does not, even kidding is think about taking all of yeah, printing. right. because the thought of occupying a hostile country now troops, russia, would need to do that is russian is there got. busy ambition, the rest of the admissions are quite limited at this point. yeah, and i agree with what angela was saying before that the us has different priorities that the us with us been talking about. the agent is it for more than

a decade now and keeps getting distracted by what is the reason why we talk us. officials talk about china as being the pacing threat. driving came to offers with the 18 top advisors from the center for new american security. these are the china hawks, a rand roader reports talking about avoiding a long war was who the title? because they didn't want to get bogged down and ukraine. and now they've gotten not only bogged down with the ukraine, but also in the middle east. you know, so the problem is we're at the, the, on the doorstep of world war 3, a nuclear war in 3 separate regions right now. but i've been calling for my into is around the world, is that we need an emergency global summit. we need leaders to get together and figure out a way to walk us back off the ledge because we're at a desperate moment in history. we've never been in a situation like this and, and, you know, all the leaders are talking about their own broky,

old national interest. we need somebody to speak to the planet right now. and, and it's not happening. and you know, there's so much that could be done in terms of the appeal from the 100 down to the global nuclear abolition in terms of the world population. we see, for example, with the brick summit, it's taking place now. you asked to angelo about europe, but right now the europe accounts for are the g 7 accounts for 30 percent of the global g d p. by the end, the decade is going down to 28 percent. the bricks by the end of the decades will account for 37 percent and that doesn't even include all the countries that are lining up to join them. so we're at a moment of global realignment, and we could make something positive. you know, the chinese talked about when, when diplomacy, you mentioned when, when also before,

we have to be thinking about that rather than this 0 sum game that we're playing now because it's getting as just deeper and deeper into our crisis with terrific. oh yeah, because peter, i, i, there's so much there that i agree with you, but again i, i think it may be a bridge too far. matthew, a, a lot of people, particularly, you know, the washington elite, some foreign policy. they think things are going just swimmingly. okay. because what the, my point is here, you know, well, if we can't, when we get to make sure the other side doesn't win, will always create chaos. a run, you know, chaos for the russians. k us for the chinese k k. k also is a good enough alternative to winning. go ahead, matthew. i think that's true, but it's also people have to remember to the united states as those and really, really adapt that sort of pushing false narratives on to other country. yep. so suddenly that i have always positive rushes real goal. and this conflict was never about occupying ukraine or moving onward to eastern and central europe. it was

rather a very definitive and almost pragmatic, please saying we will not allow anyone to isolate us in our own neighborhood. we will not allow adversaries to be right on our doorstep with, with you intention and as long as people understand that we will remain a global power and we will remain strong on the global stage. that's our goal. that's. so that's our only intense, and that's sort of depressing for both the united states and, or because i think the united states for sure, saw, well, we probably can't make ukraine when this war, but if it endlessly goes on and grinds russia down, that's almost maybe even better, yeah, then i and you got it that it's, that's the plan b i that you're absolutely right. and so we're almost out of time here. but in my introduction i talked about peace and security. and that is actually attention to what peter was talking about in washington. we need the a global. so i'm going to talk about peace and security for all the ended disability of peace and security for all that's a winter. donald trump,

you can get a nobel prize for this. go ahead angela before we, before we finish, what i think we need to look at the these new set. see those, i feel the multiple, the word is about going back to southern states. own interest is the chinese say, the state i look for what you notice and set aside the differences. you see how more adults they owe. and actually, when you look at the, how the speech is done by briggs, it's not about seeking the you know, so you can construct the dividing use of what you want to work with us. let's treat together. we have differences. what, let's be the stuff just going pull that aside. and those are adults and, and hopefully we have adults back on the 3, but we're right. know we have so many leads that are not working for the n people in this be because they want to hold them to power and the to the set that that's why we in, in this position. okay gentlemen we, we started out very depressing, but i think we entered on a note of optimism. i, i think i was a skeptic of about bricks for

a very long time. i've changed my mind. i think this is, yeah, this when, when approach is the, the is the only way forward right now for, for the, for the, for all of humanity as all the time we have gentlemen, i want to thank my guess in bangkok and in washington. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our dc next time. and remember prospect rules the a, the same rom just don't you have to shape house and engagement equals the trail.

when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground. the the way done states is the steps of getting the net man, but of some of those things that got those pop up. yes. can i show some of the number you just didn't check from the magic, you know, whatever. which one of the missed on this meeting goes to the store? yeah. from sheila or her gift unlimited device usage. you can change the subject email in there. i get unlimited. do i want to delete the meeting? i'm in the eclipse. can we can also just do that. justin mcgill, i'm the mother to release the financing. uh, either give me the quote and assume

a little ocean move them procedures move the boys on that a little knocks with and huge company systems. those checks in their st. mary's who's opinions which, which appear to do so. so i need the boy lived in yours with no way most shooting. curtis, the engine is, will be always believes that life is a full set, that all the is ups and downs. the india, before the british was the richest nation with the highest g d, b in the world. and why did the 100 years of british rule bring it