the deal, and that was the us and they said it was in the middle of the, of the hello and welcome to worlds a part the last 3 years of western economic warfare against russia happens to have to deliver as a fatal blow to this problem. but it hasn't dramatically changed the functioning on the global, and particularly the western economies escaping washington's friendly fire, cutting losses now preoccupying, so science for america's own allies. while the rest of the world is actively experimenting with new ways of doing business out size, watson, and bondage wherever, having from here. well, to discuss that i'm now enjoyed by the young, foster kids professor of bells raising university as faculty of

a phenomena. and former governor on the national bank of serbia. mr. charles kitchen is great to talk to thank you very much for being available. thank you for you. by the way, now we are recording this interval after the break summit and russia, which brought together not only the leaders of major developing economies, but pretty much the entire global south. and i think what's, what was very important about the summit is that it's not only shot or the western narrative of russia's isolation, but follow closely. i think its strength from those countries constant dense that they can deal with one another regardless of how uncle sam feels about it. do you think that's important? well, yes i do. you know, i believe that we are all living in a world in which there is perhaps system that are too busy information about the economic power of certain countries in the world. and i believe that the west is still living in the seventy's and eighty's concerning the relative economic

sense of, you know, if we look at the data from the world bank, we see basically a different picture for me to attempt to consume ration roles and mastic product which is, you know, corrected for the purchasing power parity. the 3 brings a lot of, i would say the grounds for additional confidence on the side of the emerging market, especially for the brakes conferencing. mm hm. the west is not the only not as powerful as it used to be, but i think the one of the points you're often making your articles on in your interest is that it's actually wasting its power that it has at this point of time to counter productively to try to hurt russia or china, but it ends up hurting its own allies or its own economies. why do you think this a rationale persist? the why do you think the west is not so good at accounting for the consequences of its own actions for its own base, for its own allies or for itself? yes will. i believe that there is a number of widespread inertia about the role of the west in the global economy.

and i think that the basic aids is from historical facts of the end of the 2nd world war veterans. united states economy was the dominant one. all the other potential competitors were actually heavily destroyed during the war itself. so in the fifty's and sixty's or seventy's and all the global dollar and solve of united states was not the question and you can bowers in west, you can domain have also recovered. sold dominance of g 7 was you can say, i'm disputed. however, nowadays, if people would like to be taking some conservation, adequate measures and be put on the power and that is gross domestic product, but not the nominal, but to connected with purchasing power parity. and that is a very important distinction to do, to have in mind the, because purchasing fall periods, it actually takes into consideration the level, the difference in looking level. all the internal price is the economies that you

would like to compare. so therefore, if you use the g p code that uh, corrected for the purchasing power parity, and you're looking for that to be in the, let's say world bank data or i'm, if data is the one you see a very different picture. you'll see basically the long before largest economy using the world 3 are actually members of rich today, the china, india, and russia. russia being for india being 3rd, china being 1st and all the 2nd place. you see united states basically lagging behind china roughly about 20 percent. however, you know, west is still very important. but at the end of the game, you know, less than you want to. each has always been heavily reliant on importing energy to a certain extent of, you know, raw materials even for this along and those other things that basically russia has being proven provider of these commodities in the global market, especially saving the needs of europe. and i believe that the sanctions coming from the country, which is basically the experience sanctions lot south 2030 years back. i do pay the

recall those those times as a terry it's very uh, you know, for the laddies down, so my country, but at the same time, uh, we saw the dfcs connect to the really the web say um, that's the mantle for the small economy. but for the logic on them, you're like, like, for instance, rush raise today like a full board, was started a $6.00 to you as dollars and with the structure of the economy, which russia has and with the, and very low level of f. 2, g, d, p, which russia has. and also let's say the surplus tre. bell about the subscription. if i, if i'm a, i do wanna discuss the particularities of russia's economic relationship with your up a little bit later. but before we move there, can i ask you a couple of questions about the breaks? because i think one of breaks, main distinctions is that it wasn't created to counter anything, including the months criticized western economic and financial order. a,

it's main purpose for existence is essentially to advance the interest of its members states. it's very practically orient that. it's not against it is support, and yet we are seeing a lot of i'm her cereal, attitude towards the brakes, pro western media and for a western politicians. why do you're seeing the west still sees the brakes and then talking to stick terms? because brakes, countries are primarily preoccupied with themselves rather than with the west. it seems to me that their view of things is if you are not with us, you are against us. you cannot be basically neutral. you could also have these dies with the various in 42 centers. all all are doing believe lens, but you need to be basically part of just $112.00. and i do not see that it's a good option for many countries. i do know that it's may be a lot another good option for my country, but i see also that a large company like india also does light that's added to the many others. you

know, the, so you know, this type of the 3 ballistic, a way of thinking do need in global domain. i don't believe that there is of the, you know, rightsignature for that's and brakes is basic. any given us, a different approach that i believe is, is a more rational one. well, to some extent in different but uh on the other side. it's also very similar to what i'm like, uh, the west advocate of in the past. because uh, brakes is a fairly loose organization and it stands by supervisors. like, for example, practicality over i do all a g, a mutual respect, freedom of choice, focus on development, and those are some of those values used to be praised in the west a couple of decades ago, but not anymore. how do you understand this? turning around a lot of things from changing the west. you know, we will came from the edge of utah from the southeast europe. we will always, and we were always aspiring towards european values, you know, the, the, the liberal society with human rights. uh then you know, democracy uh,

in uh, you know, wealthy countries with good living standards and so on. there was a lot of attractiveness and there was a, i would say, a higher level of the intention to be fair in international relationship. i mean, we do is the recall and the 1980s in the beginning of 19900. it wasn't a surprise to see and see, or a politician was talking about the unified media and you know, sphere of, of cultivation from uh, you know, uh less than 2 lovely balls stuck and so on and so forth. and unfortunately through that, and so to say romantic periods has, you know, cease to exist during the ninety's. and i see that the prevailing policies nowadays in the west and will sometimes be as a calendar mind the core values that they have been advocating for for decades. uh huh. now this romantic vision of newer of, and perhaps more broadly on, on the world was also based on the promise that everyone would be able to partake

and they call them girls. but when i uh, tried to analyze west an attitude towards growth and development right now, it's this rather jealous western countries seem to be very adversarial or jealous of other countries growth. whereas briggs seems to be taking a different attitude. it's more sort of uh, laid back and there is a recognition that the prosperity of your neighbor also contributes to your own stability. so i wonder why each of these developmental paradigms, because these are very 2 different ways of looking at the world when wind or versus wind lewis, which of these to do you thing may prevail over time. and i'm asking that not as a rhetorical question, but as an economic one. well, you know, it's weird calls that are used to the end of the 1st world war when there was the side of the conference. and one of the very prominent members of the nation at that time, a famous economy is drawn liner case, actually advocated for not mediating germany as allowing germany to grow as

a potential market for british france and other producers. and lucky the bose huge the, you know, the more re, payments and such, she wasn't fortunately, minority mc very much. you're disappointed the decided to pull away from those b stocks. and rather than the famous book, you know, the economic consequences of peace. so from the economic perspective, there is a win win situation. there is no, not necessarily a 0 sum game, the international relations because all neighbor and the others, which are, you know, the countries, the 3 a cooperating with, if they're growing, then there is that's also the potential for the market for our producers to grow. so we can corporation, i believe it shouldn't be, you know, completely understood, especially by the countries in the west which was advocated for free trade for decades. back to, you know, it shouldn't be quite, quite obvious that to the end of more cooperation, economic freedom and trade varies on opportunity for all to drugs. and for the,

you know, coming benefit is there's not only an opportunity for all to grow and, but also so a very strong advantage for the west in particular, for the united states, which use its currency as a well promoted as currency as the universal global currency but you have written a lot about the fact that these weaponized ation of the dollar it's used as an instrument of unilateral block sanctions. is that not only for the financial system, it's bad for the west itself? how long do you think it will be until i live the west actually sees the negative consequences of that? well, the negative consequences all of our already seen to a certain extent as well that maybe is being but not the recognize that police in policy making. well, you can see there's a lot of people including the bulk of the land and the others are saying something like, yeah, you know, dollars for their to stay for a long video. they have this along the talking, you know, way that it's the only system available and the only system possible. however,

if you look back to issues 3, again counting to the beast, confidence, and then um, you know, your bretton woods. we remember that even at that time, the dollar a, as a mean the national academy. so you had a competitor in the british model and also advocated by a previous investment on minor games. and there is to create an international kind of see which is all going to be the kind of c o n each individual states. and there is a very, to the reason for that we have seen in best couple of years. again, the reason the reaffirmation of why it is not good to have any national academy also serving the purpose of the national need for making payments as actions and keeping reserves. we've seen that because of good inflation from the u. s. actually has spilled over into the rest of the economy. also in the us is for the already but internal purposes, raising interest rates to less a current lovely inflation in the us. very, at the same time, you flashing all the countries which you need to raise depth in denominated into as

dollars. they need to compete with these value of interest rates. as some of these countries simply cannot financially so lives. so such a pressure and that has to be the case can be assisting 19 eighties with a lot of the mentoring economies here. that's all i need to, you know, imagine the public debt price is due to effect the date at that time. united states was dealing with their own internal in place. and paul walker was basically curbing down and facing the united states with very, very high interest rates. so there are a lot of negatives below owners coming from the fact that the one national academy seem to escape us dollar is being used as a courtesy for the international trade. this also bring you developed a huge 3 and the deficit for the u. s. a. and a lot of other, let's say professional salt companies like to let 6 you do you think in sacramento stuff happen in new york, sometimes thousands and thousands kilometers away from the purchase or environmental certain goods. maybe in a, you know, in africa and asia and left in american so all okay, well mr. sha sketch, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just

a few moments. state you in the the, what is a part of the employee would post good isn't the defense you of us and bidding the word or is it something deeper, more complex might be present good. let's stop without cases. let's go products. as the

welcome back to one of the parts with the on the 1st page, former governor of the national bank, all serbia mr. schwartz gets just before the break we were talking about the um, inconveniences associated with having be here as solar as the main reserve currency of the goal. but let's, i mean it's also pretty the well and universal in use and i know about it when among the bricks countries i, i've seen some stuff. the districts that up to 65 percent of the trade is settled in alternative ways and biological currencies or in some other method is what, whenever it's possible breaks countries also a trade in dollar. and because it is convenient, do you think you can ever be fully replaced um is sold by what? well, concerning the replacements. i mean,

we the need to also heavy lines that before 1944 and you bet them with the initial at the there were other ways of settling international transactions. i mean, we also have from that period of time after the 1st world war, the banks on international 7 months, which was one of the 6 years i was actually put in place to facilitate these crates, which were at that time not to conduct as a new as dollars, let me remind you, because dollar actually didn't, that was not the dominant global courtesy before the 2nd world war. so alternatives are obviously there. you know, you can trade in your local cotton c. and you can uh, potentially to create a create a unit to account for this to something like the past the hour or something like that. you can also maybe think further and try to, to create the really any class will kind of see which would be capable of also increasing in volume on his own. in the, as the international trade grows, light, the dro minor gains and vases things, he's bankcorp

a model. so i believe that that initiative is something that might be addressed. again, there was a group of us economies after the great, the financial crisis of 2007 and 8, among which was the cedars us, a lot of people who know the low rates that we're discussing, the possibility of creating the global kind of see the world money, which wouldn't be dollar, which would be something else. and i believe that to the now, from, you know, perspective of, of these recent events, you know, the, the blockage of funds, officer southern nations in the reserves in dollars, euros, and other western come, you know, kind of says, there is now let's say in additional let me put this to revisit this idea. i believe the very special, however, it's not easy to make that re a solid alternative, you know, very short period of time. but this processing, in any case, needs to be gradual and his normal seems the relative importance of us economy has

been on the decline for decades back. interesting. and i think that process is already moving. i mean, it has not produced any results here, but there were plenty of size discussions of the break fun of now speaking of which breaks was developing as an international and grouping even before the conflict in your brain and turn the kinetic after phase. but i think it's pretty clear that they've got a very substantial impetus with the start of the war and with the introduction of western sanctions against the restaurant against many other countries that are willing to trade with russia. do you think western policy makers accounted for that? how sort through a do you think that the um, intentional about policy to introduce sanctions was at that time i have to say that's more than 2 years back in one discussion and broadcast that i have on. so it'd be an alternative tv channels and so on. i predicted that these sections, though, was restaurant a will not be successful. i predicted the maybe one or 2 years of negative relative

turned out just one year of negative growth. but i also envisage that, you know, that the country that has technology, capital, skilled labor, large, internal market and all the production of all of these essential aspects following the serialization, re, if some of the, most of the sections such a country and, and have a success with that, i think that it's, it's basically a more visual thing to thinking about in reality, to large economy with the structure which is self sustainable and, and enough for internal growth. now, you know, frankly speaking, i'm not saying that there are lots of negative aspects of, of international sanctions, but was it asked me to call them and you should know that better than i do. but at the same time, you know, the economy is growing and having and that will give you high rates of growth and the corporation there is still a very much for vibrant with the rest of the world is something that is only helping in this, in this process, all obviously obviously you're sending

a message that these sections simply them out for now i heard you're saying that one of the most common mistake is that the western policy makers choose to make about the roster is claiming that it is a small or fragile economy. a gas station masquerading as a country on clearly anyone who needs to professionally as rushed as budgeting sheets out. it's balancing at its economic discipline, how it rolls back after the soviet co ops would know that it's not accurate. and it's not only about the size of the economy, but also the skew. the ad for this thinking that went into rebuilding the country and you know, this may not be floyd, renew my rated, but it gives country and it's economy a 2nd strength that they've counted always sort of expressing material terms. why do you think though this mess of process people in this is still getting so much purchase? well, i think the, the main reason is nothing to start ending. what the g p really is and how it can

be calculated. and the fact that most people do not know that the g d p is not a single indicator, but the activity of family of indicator from which you need to choose the united foot long for the analysis you want to make. so when you want to make an analysis comparing the countries with very different things are all a level of prices and structural economies. you need to go to ttp, compare that corrected for the purchasing power parity. when you take that to see basically that the russian gdp is more than 3 times larger than phenomenal to, to be the people that are frequently used. secondly, and there is no physical fragility. it's a physical disappointment in a country with a very, very low level of depth to g to be much, much lower than what is it present in europe nowadays. and i believe that the last figure that i found it says component there, which is published by the i mess with 17 percent of g d p, which is far, far below the average in europe, which is around 80 percent or united states which is not around and i almost got

like a 30 percent of getting paid to do all world up to date have. so this is in my view macro economic, a country them economy that is very hard to stabilize. and the people that haven't been talking about sanctions, i believe that they have something else in mind. you know, a smaller economy is which with which they had experience is previously and relative success. but i can tell you are coming from a very small economy which sections back in the ninety's, even our economies, us divide, you know, there is always a possibility. so the sites that some of the, some of the sanctions, obviously that is much, much more of a problem in the, the small country like so it'd be a bad and even even economy like josh now, uh, serve. and russia clearly have a historical type, but i do want to ask you as somebody who deals with hard matters of economy, i wonder if that quality of washington been disciplined and validates financial

matters that were about dates. development is also something that attracts many of the countries to the brakes form. and because a person who is speaking, this is something i thing, but to be respected this uh, you know, this quality of being not only self sufficient, but also, you know, seeing your own uh with this is appreciating your own strength and trying to build from that do you think there's any attraction in that in the, in the world? i think that there is, i think that there is a potential for the, the countries in the south to stats realizing it, understanding that with these 3 the, you raise and they call them is a, china, india and russia. you know, there is basically no fewer and fewer needs to the corporate suites. additional, the west, the technology industry, military capacity, the overall economic is trying, you know,

the terms of actually shifted in geographical terms from the west, through the east. and all of these, if you, if you really want to acquire anything that is substantial for any developed and you call them e, i'm sure that they could, besides west look also elsewhere and fulfilled their needs. and then, you know, you know, being a good way. so, you know, to south south corporation, my view should be increased and also, you know, one of these very good ideas that has emerged after the 2nd world war we should have never been implemented. unfortunately, you know, the little bit the, you know, put on the side and memory being developed in those days, at the end of 19 forties and beginning of the 1950s. it was also debated about creating the commodities and you know, the reserves definitely keep the prices of agriculture products in other commodities, relatively stable and that was something that would have, you know, very much helps the development. those we've got under developed economies. however,

that didn't realize the only 2 institutions, basically the stadium life, well world bank and the i m f and they have gradually, basically the be a steered perhaps a little bit away from the real interest solve the developing world. let me ask you one more question. about attractions because i think ever since the soviet collapse, it was assumed that the european union is the main attraction for all european countries. and they all want to be part of this a big club because of its values. as you mentioned because of a high living sanders, and there was a sort of presumption within european western european politicians that they can choose from to befriend and they can sort of impulse 3 conditions on countries if they want to be in a some sort of a relationship with the european union. does this feel vis, still sold to do you think the air is still as attractive as it believes itself to

me? we don't really need to speculate too much. we can see what happens with me. but actually it's obviously some people in the united kingdom and the majority was a wednesday or obviously in 2016 voted to get out of the, you know, through, over the depth was enough to bulk choice for the u. k. c. this was in the long run, but of the soviet that europe is in the sort of the price is in terms of decision making, but also you'll see the results. we think that the you coming from the western ball comes i can also say that we are waiving utilized by the years. nothing actually has happened. we are and you can save if we are not getting closer by waiting in line. we are testing away from, from european union. you can say they're up to a certain extent. i believe that the, the, the european union has a problem. if it wants to be called european n, at the same time to exclude the largest economy, the on the continents, the country which has lots of statutory,

which has the largest population and obviously a very significant military power. i do not believe that unity and institutions should be, uh, you know, the drawings on those grounds. i believe that they need to make a shift, and we'll see whether may be some new political structures in europe. we'll be more aware of that fact. an o one last question. if i made one of the most common awards i, i heard being voice the, the brakes on it then comes on and was respect. and i wanna ask here is an economy is how much respect matters when it comes to relationships between various countries. the policies such an important thing to do basically is round it on mutual respect. and this thing is something that, unfortunately, is quite, you know, put aside the many relationships the police have significant saving the past couple of decades. there are countries,

especially some in the west that basically tried to impose solutions that are not to you know, treating the other parties that as an people in discussions that are not a problem to discussing the diplomatic manner to solve problems before they are obviously, you know, undesirable fashion, so i believe that there is also a lack of the, you know, capacity on the side of the kind of political leads and be actively pharmacy. my view has been in the klein, almost a shelf kitchen. i believe it's also the western phrase. that's what you get is what's your dad. so i guess it's not much a surprise the west increasingly finds itself in a minority. nevertheless, this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much for the by the way. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to sooner again on the was a part of the, of the

the, the, [000:00:00;00] the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case of the med, most of the people i tried to go to the gym,

but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also absurd. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washington. as for so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to help me living online. we have very quick propaganda. you know, a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. some more questions ask a better. the answer is will be the