what he already provides to use in smooth clusters. these are the same lines that ukrainian missile spewed over the cities like the next, who was in mass age reasons, casualties amongst civilians. that those are the some of these mines are ready for use and this is a gas grenade on the other ukrainian flags here have been swamped, full battle band as a russian brigades, a russian officer. he's scratching off a glory to you, a f scribbling on the wall. as booms full. this is the beginning of the rough, finishes every liberated. don't bass town starts with on the long road to a mighty opal style make over. how much was done of reporting from okay and t the next on rosa parks, on a space with the former governor of the national bank of serbia,

about the brick summit and the failed western economic warfare against russia. please stay with us here on archie international. the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to worlds a part. the last 3 years of western economic warfare against russia happens to be a deliver as

a fatal blow to this problem. but it hasn't dramatically changed the functioning of the global and particularly the western economies escaping washington's friendly fire, cutting law system, now preoccupying concerns for america's own allies. while the rest of the world is actively experimenting with new ways of doing business out size, west and bondage wherever, having from here. well, to discuss that i'm now enjoying by the squash gauge professor bounds, raising university as possible to have a phenomena. a former governor on the national bank of serbia is as far as the kitchen is great to talk to thank you very much for being available. thank you for you. by the way, now we are recording this interval off to the brick summit and russia, which brought together not only the leaders of major developing economies, but pretty much the entire global south. and i think what's, what was very important about the summit is that it's not only shot or the western narrative of rushes, isolation,

but follow closely. i think it's strength on those countries constant dens that they can deal with one another regardless of how uncle sam feels about it. do you think that's important? well, yes i do. you know, i believe that we are all living in a world in which there is perhaps system that are too busy information about the economic power of certain countries in the world. and i believe that the west is still living in the seventy's and eighty's concerning their relative economic status bureau. if we look at the data from the world bank, we see basically a different picture for me to take into consideration rose invested product, which is, you know, corrected for the purchasing power parity. the 3 it brings a lot of, i would say the grounds for additional confidence and decided to be measured the market special needs for the bridge scoundrels. the west is not the only not as powerful as it used to be. but i think the one of the points you're often making your articles on in your interest is that it's actually wasting its power. that it

has at this point of time to counter productively to try to heard russia with china . but it ends up hurting its own allies or its own economies. why do you think this a rationale persist? the why do you think the west is not so good at accounting for the consequences of its own actions for its own base, for its own allies or for itself? yes will. i believe that there is of widespread inertia about the role of the west in the global economy. and i think that the basic aids is from historical facts of the end of the 2nd world war veterans. united states economy was the dominant one. all the other potential competitors were actually having to be destroyed during the war itself. so in the fifty's and sixty's or seventy's and all the global dominance of, of united states was nothing question and you can bowers in west,

you can domain have also recovered, sold dominance of g 7 was you can say, i'm disputed. however, nowadays, if people would like to be taking some conservation, adequate measures, that'd be cut on the power and that is gross domestic product, but not the nominal, but the directors with the purchasing power parity. and that is a very important distinction to do, to have in mind the, because purchasing power periods, it actually takes into consideration the level, the difference in looking level. all the internal price is the economies that you would like to compare. so therefore, if you use the g p code that uh, corrected for the purchasing power parity, and you're looking for that to be in the, let's say world bank data or i'm, if data is the one you see a very different picture. you'll see basically the long before largest economy using the world 3 are actually members of rich today of china, india and russia. russia being faults, india being 3rd, china being 1st ad on the 2nd place. you see united states basically lagging behind china and up to about 20 percent. however, you know,

west is still very important. but at the end of the game, you know, uh, wisdom you want to, the has always been heavily reliant on being 14 energy to a certain extent of, you know, raw materials even for the so long and those other things that basically russia has been proven provider of these commodities in the global market, especially savings the needs of europe. and i believe that the sanctions coming from the country which has basically experienced sanctions, lot south 2030 years back. i do pay the recall those those times as a very, it's very uh you know, for the laddies down. so mike mc, but at the same time, uh, we saw the dfcs connect to the really the web say bethany manacle for the small economy. but for the logic on them, you like, like, for instance, rush race today like a full board was sorry, a $6.00 to you as dollars the and with the structure of the economy,

which restaurant has and with the very low level of f. 2, g, d, p, which russia has. and also let's say the circle citrate, belly. well, the scripts, if i, if i make, i do wanna discuss the particularities of russia's economic relationship with your up a little bit later and been there before we move there. and can i ask you a couple of questions about the breaks? because i think one of breaks, main distinctions, is that it wasn't created to counter anything, including the much criticized western economic and financial order. a, its main purpose for existence is essentially to advance the interest of its members states. it's very practically orient that. it's not a guest, it is for i'm yet we're seeing a lot of i'm her cereal, attitude towards the brakes, pro western media and from western politicians. why do you're seeing the west still sees the brakes and talking to a stiff terms? because brakes, countries are primarily preoccupied with themselves rather than with the west. it

seems to me that their view of things is if you are not with us, you are against us. you cannot be basically neutral. you could also have these dies with a very simple working to the centers, all of our globally flows. but you need to be basically part of just one club. and i do not see that it's a good option for many countries. i do know that it's may be a not, not a good option for my country, but i see also that a large company like india also does light that's added to the many others. you know, the so you know, this type of the 3 ballistic, a way of thinking they need in global domain. i don't believe that there is a, you know, drive, sir, triple that's and breaks is basic units giving us a different approach that i believe is, is a more rational one. well just, i'm extend a different but uh, on the other side. it's also a very similar to what i'm like uh, the west advocate of in the past because uh, brakes is a fairly loose organization and it stands by supervisors. like,

for example, practicality or over ideal, a g, a mutual respect, freedom of choice, focus on development, and those are some of those values used to be praised in the west a couple of decades ago, but not anymore. how do you understand this turning around, a lot of things from changing the west. you know, we're located from the edge of utah from the southeast europe. we will always and we were always aspiring towards european values, you know, the, the, the, the liberal society with the human rights. uh, then you know, democracy. uh, in uh, you know, wealthy countries with good living standards and so on. there was a lot of attractiveness and there was a, i would say, a higher level of the intention to be fair in international relationship. i mean, we do is the recall and the 19 eighties and the beginning of the 1990s. generally, it wasn't a surprise to see and see your politicians talking about the unified media and you know, sphere of, of cultivation from uh, you know,

uh less than 2 lovely balls stuck and so on and so forth. and unfortunately, that's it. and so to say romantic periods has a, you know, cease to exist during the ninety's. and i see that the prevailing policies nowadays in the west and will sometimes be as a calendar mind the core values that they have been advocating for for decades. uh huh. now this romantic vision of newer of, and perhaps more broadly on, on the world was also based on the promise that everyone would be able to partake. and they called them girls. but when i uh, tried to analyze western attitude towards growth and development right now, it says rather jealous, western countries seem to be very adversarial or jealous of other countries growth . whereas brakes seems to be taking a different attitude. it's more sort of uh, laid back and there is a recognition that the prosperity of your neighbor also contributes to your own stability. 1 i wonder which of these developmental paradigms,

because these are very 2 different ways of looking into a world when wind or versus wind noise. which of these to inducing may prevail over time. and i'm asking that not as a rhetorical question, but as an economic one. well, you know, it's weird call sir, is to the end of the 1st world war when there was the west side of the conference. and one of the very prominent members of the nation at that time, a famous economy, is drawn liner case, actually advocated for not mediating germany as allowing germany to grow as a potential market for british france and other producers. and lucky the bows huge the, you know, the well re payments and such. she wasn't unfortunately, my daughter gmc very much disappointed decided to pull away from those uh piece thoughts. and rather than the famous book, you know, the economic consequences of peace. so from the economics perspective, there is a win win situation. there is no, not necessarily

a 0 sum game and international relations because all neighbor and the others, which are, you know, the countries that we have corporate in with, if they're growing, then there is, that's also the potential for the market for our producers to grow. so in corporation, i believe it shouldn't be, you know, completely understood, especially by the countries in the west which was advocated for free trade for decades. back, you know, it shouldn't be quite, quite obvious that to the end of more cooperation, economic freedom and trade varies and opportunity for all to drugs. and for the, you know, come and benefit is there is not only an opportunity for all to grow and, but also to a very strong advantage for the west. in particular, for the united states, which use its currency as a well promoted as currency as the universal global currency. but you have written a lot about the fact that this weaponized ation of the dollar if use as an instrument of unilateral block sanctions, is bad. not only for the financial system, it's bad for. 5 the west itself,

how long do you think it will be until elizabeth west actually sees the negative consequences of that? well, the negative consequences is all of our already seen to a certain extent as well that maybe is being but not the recognize the place in policy making. well, you can see that a lot of people, we can totally, the bulk of them and the others are saying something like, yeah, you know, dollars for their to stay for a long video. they have this, i want to talk to, you know, way that it's the only system available and the only system possible. however, if we live back to him, she's to be again coming to the beast, confidence, and then um, you know, your bretton woods. we remember that even at that time, the dollar a, as a mean the national academy. so you had a competitor, it in the british model. the also advocated by a previous, a message on my, their case. and there is to create an international gotta see, which is all going to be the kind of c o n each individual states. and there is a very close reason for that. we have seen in the past couple of years. again,

the reason the reaffirmation of why it is not good to have any national academy. also setting the purpose of international need for making payments transactions and keeping reserves. we can see that because the information from the us actually has spilled over into the rest of the economy. also in the us is for the already but internal purposes, raising interest rates to let's say, current localization in the us very of the same time you've listing all of the countries which you need to raise depth in the us dollars. they need to compete with these values, interest rates, and some of these countries simply cannot financially so lives. so it's such a pressure and that has to be the case can be assisting 19 eighties when a lot of the lives in the economies here. that's all i need to, you know, imagine the public debt prices due to the fact that they at that time united states was dealing with their own internally place. and paul walker was basically cutting down and facing the united states with very, very high interest rates. so there are a lot of negatives below owners coming from the fact that the one national academy seem to escape us dollar is being used as

a courtesy for the international trade. this also bring you developed a huge range deficit for the u. s. a. and a lot of other, let's say professional self companies like to let 6 you do you think a settlement that happened in new york, sometimes thousands and thousands kilometers away from the purchaser, enviro certain goods, maybe in a get all you may have for dante's, you, i left an american saw. okay, well mister sharp sketch, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments state you in the us

the welcome back to will the parts with the on sausage, former governor on the national bank, all serbia mr. schwartz gets just before the break, we were talking about the um, inconveniences associated with having be here as dollar as the main reserve currency of the gold. but let's on me, that's also pretty the well universal in use, and i know about it when among the bricks, countries i, i've seen some sadistic that up to 65 percent of the trade is settled in alternative ways in pilots roll currencies or in some other method is what, whenever it's possible breaks country is also a trade in dollar. and because it is convenient, do you think it's an adverb, be fully replaced, um, is sold by what? well, concerning the replacements. i mean,

we the need to also heavy lines that before 1944 in the back of what the initial at the, there were other ways of settling the financial transactions. i mean, we also have from that period of time after the 1st world war, the bank for international 7 months, which was one of the 6 years i was actually put in place to facilitate these praise, which were at that time not to conduct as in us dollars, let me remind you, because dollar actually didn't, that was not the dominant global courtesy before the 2nd world war. so alternatives are obviously there. you know, you can trade in your local cotton c and you can potentially create a, create a unit to account for this to something like the as the, our or something like that. you can also, maybe it's a thing further and try to, to create the really an international kind of see which would be capable of also increasing volume on his own. in the, as the international trade grows, likes to draw a minor gains and visitors, things use bankcorp a model. so i believe that that initiative is something that might be addressed.

again, there was a group of us economies after the great, the financial crisis of 2007 and $8.00, among which was the booth. she gives us a lot of people who know below rates. and then we're discussing the possibility of creating the global kind of see the world money, which wouldn't be dollar, which would be something else. and i believe that to the, now, from, you know, the perspective of, of these recent events, you know, the, the blockage of funds up to some southern nations in their reserves, in dollars, euros, and other west and come, you know, kind of says there is no, let's say an additional let me put this to revisit this idea. i believe the various professional. however, it's not easy to make that re a solid alternative in a very short period of time. but this processing, any case, needs to be gradual and his normal seems the relative importance of us economy has been on the decline for decades back. interesting. and i think the process is

already moving. i mean, it's have not produced any results yet, but uh, there were plenty of those discussions of the break funding. now, speaking of which breaks was developing as an international and grouping even before the conflict in ukraine and terms of kinetic after phase. but i think it's pretty clear that they've got a very substantial impetus with the start of the war and with the introduction of western sanctions against the restaurant against many other countries that are willing to trade with russia. do you think western policy makers accounted for that? how sort through a do you think that the intention on that posted to introduce sanctions was at that time? i have to say that's more than 2 years back in one discussion and broadcast that i had on the serbian alternative tv channels and so on. i predicted that these sections, though, was restaurant will not be successful. i predicted the maybe one or 2 years of negative relative turned out just one year of negative growth. but i also envisage

that you know, that the country that has different ology, capital, skilled labor, large internal market and all the production of all of these essential aspects. following this realization re, if someone wants to section such a country and, and have a success with that, i think that it's, it's basically a more wishful thing to thinking that in reality, it's too large economy. we have to the structure which itself is sustainable and, and enough for internal growth. now, you know, frankly speaking, i'm not saying that there are lots negative aspects of all the international sanctions. the production to call them industry know that better that i do. but at the same time, you know, the, the economy is growing and having to fail, give you high rates of growth and the corporation there is still a very much are vibrant with the rest of the world is something that is only helping in this, in this process, all obviously obviously this having a message that these sections simply to not for now i heard you say that one of the

most common mistakes that the western policy makers choose to make about the roster is claiming that it is a small or fragile economy. a gas station masquerading is a country and clearly anyone who look at the professionally uh the rushes budgeting, uh sheets add its uh, balancing at it's a can nomic discipline how it rolls back after the soviet co ops would know that it's not accurate then it's not only about the size of the economy, but also the skew. the ad for this thinking that went into rebuilding the country and you know, this may not be slowly renew, are rated by the gifts country. and it's economy a certain strength that they've counted always sort of expressing material terms. why do you think though this mess of process people in this is still getting so much purchase? well, i think the, the main reason is not understand. think what the genie be really is and how it can be calculated. and the fact that most people do not know that the g d b is not

a single indicator, but the activity of family read decatur phone, which you need to choose. and i think with long for the analysis you want to make. so when you want to make an analysis comparing the countries with very different things at all, a level of prices and structural economy, you need to be able to, to, to compare that corrected for the purchasing power parity. when you take that to see basically that the rest and you the piece more than 3 times larger than phenomenal, to, to be the people that are frequently used. secondly, and there is no physical fragility. it's a, it's a physical to be something in a country with a very, very low level of depth of gdp. much, much lower than what is it present in europe nowadays. and i believe that the last figure that i found the fiscal monitor, which is published by the i m. s was 17 percent of g, d p, which is far, far below the average in europe, which is around 80 percent or united states which is not around almost kind of 30 percent of getting paid to do all world up to date have. so this is in my view

macroeconomic a country them economy that is very hard to stabilize and the people that have been talking about sanctions, i believe that they have something else. and she mind, you know, the smaller economy is which, with which they had experience has previously and relative success. but i can tell you are coming from a very small economy with sanctions back in the ninety's. even our economies, us divide, you know, there is always a possibility. so the sites that some of the, some of the sanctions, obviously there is much, much more of a problem in a small country like so it'd be a bad and even even economy like gosh, now, uh sir, man, russia clearly have historical ties. but i, i do want to ask you as somebody who deals with hard matters of economy, i wonder if that quality of washington been disciplined and validates financial matters that were about dates. development is also something that attracts many of

the countries to the brakes form. and because a person who is speaking, this is something i think, but to be respected this uh, you know, this quality of being not only self sufficient, but also, you know, seeing your own uh with this is appreciating your own strength trying to build from that. do you think there's any attraction in that in the, in the world? i think that there is, i think that there is the potential for the, the countries in the south to south realizing that understanding that with these 3 the, you raise and i call them is a china india in russia. you know, there is basically no fewer and fewer of need to the corporate suites. additional, the west of technology, the industry, military capacity. the overall economic is trying, you know, the terms that actually shifted into your ethical terms from the west, through the east. and nowadays, if you,

if you really want to acquire anything that is substantial for any developing economy, i'm sure what the vacant, besides west look also elsewhere and fulfilled their needs. and then, you know, you know, being a good way. so, you know, to south south corporation, my view should be increased and also, you know, one of these, a very good ideas that has emerged after the 2nd world war, which you have never been implemented. unfortunately, you know, the little bit, you know, put on the side and never really been developed in those days, at the end of 19 forties and beginning of the 1950s. it was also debated about creating the commodities and you know, the reserves definitely keep the prices of agriculture products in other commodities, relatively stable and that was something that would have, you know, very us helps the development of the developed economies. however,

that didn't realize the only 2 institutions, basically the stadium life, well world bank and the i m f and they have gradually, basically the be steered perhaps a little bit away from the real interest solve the developing world. let me ask you one more question about attractions because i think ever since the story of collapse, it was assumed that the european union is the main attraction for all european countries. and they all want to be part of this, a big club because of its values, as you mentioned because of a high living sanders. and there was a sort of presumption within european western european politicians that they can choose from to befriend and they can sort of impulse 3 conditions on countries if they want to be. and there's some sort of a relationship with the european union that this phil uh, does this still sold to do you think the air is still as attractive as it believes itself to be we, we don't really need to speculate too much. we can see what happens with them,

but actually it obviously some people in the united kingdom and the majority was, it was, there are obviously in 2016 voted to get out of the the, you know, through, over the depth was enough to bulk choice for the u. k. c, this was in the long run, but of you saw me is that europe is in the sort of the price is in terms of decision making. but also you see the results that we think the you coming from the west and ball comes. i can also say that we are waiting utilized for 20 years. nothing actually has happened. we are, you can save if we are not getting close to it by waiting in line. we're getting away from, from european union. you can say they're up to a certain extent. i believe that the european union has a problem. if it wants to be called european, and at the same time, to the extent the largest economy, the on the continents, the country which has lots of statutory, which has the largest population and obviously

a very significant indicated power. i do not believe that the unit, the institutions should be uh, you know, the drawings on those grounds. i believe that they need to make a shift. and we'll see whether it may be some new political structures in europe. we'll be more aware of that fact. i'm 0, one last question. if i may, 1 of the most common words i, i heard being voice the, the brakes on it then comes on and was respect. and i want to ask you as an economy is, how much respect matters when it comes to relationships between various countries. the policy is such an important thing to do basically is around its own mutual respect. and this thing is something that, unfortunately, is quite, you know, put aside the many relationships the police have significant saving past couple of decades. there are countries, especially some in the west that basically tried to impose solutions that are not to, you know,

treating of the other parties. it as an equal in discussions that are not a problem to discussing the diplomatic manner to solve problems before they are obviously, you know, undesirable fashion. so i believe that there is also a lack of the, you know, capacity on the side of the kind of political leads and be actively pharmacy. my view has been intertwined on with the shelf kitchen. i believe it's also the west or phrase. that's what you get is what's your dad. so i guess it's not much a surprise, the west increasing. we finds itself in a minority. nevertheless, this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much for the by the way. thank you. and thank you for watching hope the searing down on the wall as

a part of the, [000:00:00;00] the glass rock, the nights in a lebanese capital as a garage of ideas from target favorite. the suburbs for port safe drive to the palestinian refugee camp of horse alpha rushing to managed by red crescent, humanitarian workers. both are almost all counted, and george's ruling party is leading to race with 54 percent. and the countries the parliamentary elections deposition accuses the governments of reading the ballot process and breaks take center stage this week,