[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to worlds apart. the last 3 years of western economic warfare against russia, habits the deliver is a fatal blow to this problem. but it has dramatically changed with functioning on the global, and particularly the western economies escaping washington's friends with fire cutting losses. now preoccupying concerns for america's own allies. while the rest of the world is actively experimenting with new ways of doing business outside

watson and bondage. wherever, having from here well to discuss that i'm now enjoying by the squashed gauge professor bound raising university as possible to have a phenomena. and former governor on the national bank of serbia. this discharge kitchen is great to talk to thank you very much for being available. thank you for you. by the way. now we are recording this interval after the break summit and russia, which brought together not only the leaders of major developing economies, but pretty much the entire global south. and i think what's, what was very important about the summit is that it's not always china or the western narrative of russia's isolation, but follow closely. i think its strength from those countries constant dense that they can deal with one another regardless of how uncle sam feels about it. do you think that's important? well, yes i do. you know, i believe that we are all living in a world in which there is perhaps,

system matter too busy information about the economic power of certain countries in the world. and i believe that the west is still living in the seventy's and eighty's concerning the relative economic sense of you all the for look at the data from the world bank. we see basically a different victory for me to attempt to consume racing roles and mastic product, which is, you know, corrected for the purchasing power period. 2 to 3. it brings a lot of, i would say the grounds for additional confidence on the side of the measure. the market special needs for the brakes conferencing. mm hm. the west is not the only not as powerful as it used to be, but i think the one of the points you're often making your articles on in your interest is that it's actually wasting its power that it has at this point of time to counter productively to try to hurt russia or china, but it ends up hurting its own allies or its own economies. why do you think this a rationale persist?

the why do you think the west is not so good at accounting for the consequences of its own actions for its own base, for its own allies or for itself? yes will. i believe that there is a number of widespread inertia about the role of the west in the global economy. and i think that the basic aids is from historical sides of the end of the 2nd world war veterans. united states economy was the dominant one. all the other potential competitors were actually having to be destroyed during the war itself. so in the fifty's and sixty's or seventy's and all the global dollar and solve of united states was not the question and you can bowers in west, you can domain have also be covered sold dominance of g 7 was you can say, i'm disputed. however, nowadays, if people would like to be taking some conservation, adequate measures, and they can only power and that is gross domestic product, but not the nominal, but to connected with the purchasing power parity. and there is

a very important distinction to do, to have in mind the, because purchasing power periods, reaction it takes into consideration the level, the difference in looking level. all the internal price is the economies that you would like to compare. so therefore, if you use the jeep vehicles that are connected for the purchasing power parity, and you're looking for that to be in the, let's say world bang data, or i'm, if data is the one you'll see a very different picture. you'll see basically the long before largest economies in the world, 3 are actually members of rich today of china, india and russia. russia being faults, india being 3rd, china being 1st ad on the 2nd place, receipts united states basically lagging behind china roughly about 20 percent. however, you know, west is still very important, but at the end of the game, you know, what's them you want to eat has always been heavily reliant on importing energy to a certain extent of, you know, raw materials even for this along and those other things that basically,

russia has been proven provider of these commodities in the global market, especially saving the needs of europe. and i believe that the sanctions coming from the country which has basically experience essentially a lot south 2030 years back. i do pay the recall those those times as a very, very uh you know, for the ladies down. so mike mc, but at the same time, uh, we saw the dfcs connect to the really, the web say um, that's the mantle for the small economy. but for the logic on them, you're like, like, for instance, rush raise today, large of full boards, sorry, a $6.00 to you as dollars. the, with the structure of the economy, which russia has, and with the very low level of f, t a, g, d, p, which russia has. and also, let's say the surplus, tre, belly, well, the scripts. if i, if i may, i do wanna discuss the particularities of russia's economic relationship with your up a little bit later. but before we move there, and can i ask you a couple of questions about the breaks?

because i think one of breaks, main distinctions, is that it wasn't created to counter anything, including the much criticized western economic and financial order. a, its main purpose for existence is essentially to advance the interest of its members state. it's very practically oriented. it's not a guess, it is for and yet we are seeing a lot of i'm her cereal, attitude towards the brakes, pro western media and pro western politicians. why do you're seeing the west still sees the brakes and then talking to a stiff terms? because brakes, countries are primarily preoccupied with themselves rather than with the west. it seems to me that their view of things is if you are not with us, you are against us. you cannot be basically neutral. you could also have these uh, dies with the various and bulky tools centers. all of all are doing believe loans. but you need to be basically part of just one club and i do not see that it's

a good option for many countries. i do know that it's may be a not, not a good option for my country, but i see also that a large company like india also doesn't like that, added to that many others, you know, the so you know, this type of the 3 ballistic way of thinking do need in global demand, i don't believe that there is of the, you know, price here, triple dance and breaks is basically giving us a different approach that i believe is, is a more rational one. well, to some extent in different but uh on the other side. it's also very similar to what i'm the west advocate of in the past, because uh, brakes is a fairly loose organization and it stands by supervisors. like, for example, practicality over i do all a g, a mutual respect, freedom of choice, focus on development, and those are some of those values used to be praised in the west a couple of decades ago. but not anymore. how do you understand this? turning around a lot of things from changing the west. you know,

we're located from the edge of utah from the southeast europe. we will always and we were always aspiring towards european values, you know, the, the, the, the liberal society with human rights. uh then you know, democracy uh, in uh, you know, wilted countries with good living standards and so on. there was a lot of attractiveness and there was a, i would say, a higher level of the intention to be fair or even international relationship. i mean, we do is the recall and the 19 eighties and the beginning of the 1990s. you know, it wasn't a surprise to see and see a politician was talking about the unified media and you know, sphere of cultivation from uh, you know, uh less than 2 lovely balls stuck and so on and so forth. and unfortunately through that, and so to say romantic periods has a, you know, cease to exist during the ninety's. and i see that the prevailing policies nowadays in, in the western world, sometimes basic,

came to mind the core values that they have been advocating for for decades. uh huh . now these are a magic vision of near of and perhaps more broadly on, on the world was also based on the promise that everyone would be able to partake and they call them girls. but when i uh, tried to analyze west an attitude towards growth and development right now, it says rather jealous, western countries seem to be very adversarial or jealous of other countries growth . whereas briggs seems to be taking a different attitude. it's more sort of uh, laid back and there is a recognition that the prosperity of your neighbor also contributes to your own the bill it to you. so. 1 i wonder why each of these developmental paradigms, because these are very 2 different ways of looking at the world when, when or versus when those, whichever these 2 do you think may prevail over time. and i'm asking that not as a rhetorical question, but as an economic one. well, you know, it's weird call face of the, the end of the 1st world war,

when there was the side conference. and one of the very prominent members of the nation at that time, a famous economy, is drawn liner canes, actually advocated for not mediating germany as allowing germany to grow as a potential market for british france and other producers. and lucky the bows huge the, you know, the more repayments and such, she wasn't fortunately, minority mc very much. you're disappointed the decided to pull away from those piece docs. and rather than the famous book, you know, the economic consequences of peace. so from the economic perspective, there is a win win situation. there is no, not necessarily a 0 sum game and international relations because all neighbor and the others, which are, you know, the countries that we are competing with. if they're growing, then there is, that's also the potential for the market for our producers to grow. so incorporation, i believe it shouldn't be, you know, completely understood especially of by the countries in the west which was

advocated for free trade for decades back. you know, it shouldn't be quite, quite obvious that to the end of more cooperation, economic freedom and trade varies. i'm a put you in a t for all to drugs and for the, you know, come and benefit is there's not only an opportunity for all to grow and, but also so a very strong advantage for the west. in particular, for the united states, we choose its currency as a well promoted as currency as the universal global currency. but you have written a lot about the fact that these weaponized ation of the dollar if use as an instrument of unilateral block sanctions, is bad. not only for the financial system, it's bad for. 5 the west itself, how long do you think it will be until i live the west actually sees the negative consequences of that? well, the negative consequences is all of our already seen to a certain extent as well that maybe expand, but not the recognize the police in policy making. well, you can see there's a lot of people including the bulk of the land and the others are saying something

like, yeah, you know, dollars for them there to stay for a long video. they have this along the talking, you know, way that it's the only system available. i'm the only system possible. however, if i'm living back to him, she's to be again coming to the beast, girlfriends and then um, you know, your bretton woods. we remember that even at that time, the dollar a, as a mean the national academy. so you had a competitor in the british model. the also advocated by a previous investment on my, their case. and there is to create an international kind of see which is all going to be the kind of c o n each individual states. and there is a very, to the reason for that we have seen in best couple of years. again, the reason do the reaffirmation of why it is not good to have any national academy . also setting the purpose of international money for making payments transactions and keeping reserves. we've seen that because that information from the us actually has spilled over into the rest of the economy. also in the us is for the already

but internal purposes, raising interest rates to let's say, current looking at replacing in the us very at the same time you've listing all the countries which you need to raise depth in then how many do you need us dollars they need to compete with these values of interest rates. and some of these countries simply cannot financially so lives, so such a pressure and that has to be the case can be assisting 19 eighties with a lot of imaging economies here. that's all i need to, you know, imagine the public debt price is due to effect the date at that time. united states was dealing with their own internal in place. and paul walker was basically curbing down and facing and united states with very, very high interest rates. so there are a lot of negatives below owners coming from the fact that one let's look at and see if this case us dollar is being used as a courtesy for the international trade. this also bring you developed a huge range deficit for the u. s. a. and a lot of other, let's say professional salt companies like to lead 6, you really need a settlement that happened in new york, sometimes thousands and thousands kilometers away from the purchase or environmental certain goods. maybe in

a get all the nasa can i use you. i left an american so all okay, well mr. sha sketch, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. state you in the plus the see the silver side of the somebody. how can it be that um the ship to the middle east from a country whose top officials constantly complain about shortages of munitions and military equipments. literally located the bully, but of boston. lo, clean and movie elbow in your system and located along the nominal facility or some of those other slash we, i'm about to the easiest to to not know. so one of the easiest on bottom of a bubble, a sort of wellness that will kind of have used to have gone on. now. why are weapons from ukraine spreading over the world?

to turn this country into a major arms hub, will continue to bolster ukraine's and forces by rushing them occasionally use that they need to defend their country. the everyone knows very well that we sell, but known as pineapples or any kind of children's toys. we sell women's yes, we're also known in the well does alms dealers that we must not be ashamed of then or left the welcome back to worlds of parts with the as phosphates former governor on the national bank. all serbia. this their source gets just before the break we were talking about the um, inconveniences associated with having be here as dollar as the main reserve

currency of the gold. but let's, i mean, it's also pretty, uh, well, we, universal in use and i know about even among the bricks countries i, i've seen some stuff for this. things that up to 65 percent of the trade is settled in alternative ways and violets roll currencies or in some other mechanisms. but whenever it's possible breaks country is also a trade in dollar. and because it is convenient, do you think it's gonna ever be fully replaced? um it sold by what? well, concerning the replacements, i mean we the need to also heavy minded before 1944 in the back of what the initial at the, of the there were other ways of settling international transactions. i mean, we also have from that period of time after the 1st world war, the banks on international 7 months, which was one of the institutions actually put in place to facilitate these crates, which were at that time not conducted in us dollars. let me remind you, because dollar actually didn't, that was not the dominant to global courtesy before the 2nd world war. so

alternatives are obviously there. you know, you can trade in your local county and you can potentially to create a, create a unit to account for this to something like the past the hour or something like that. you can also maybe think further and try to do create the really an international kind of c, which would be capable of also increasing volume on his own. and the, as the international trade grow slight during minor gains and visiting his bankcorp model. so i believe that that initiative is something that might be addressed. again, there was a group of us economies after the great, the financial crisis of 2007 and 8, among which was the book. she gives us a lot of people who know the lower rates there were discussing the possibility of creating the global kind of see the world money, which wasn't be dollar, which would be something else. and i believe that to the, now, from, you know,

perspective of, of these recent events, you know, the, the blockage of funds of this, of southern nations in their reserves, in dollars, euros, and other western con, you know, kind of says, there is, now let's say an additional let me put this to revisit this idea. i believe the very special, however, it's not easy to make that re a solid alternative to the very short period of time. but this process, in any case, needs to be gradual and his normal seems the relative importance of us economy has been on the decline for decades back. interesting. and i think that the process is already moving. i mean, it's have not produced any results yet, but uh, there were plenty of those discussions of the breaks on it. now, speaking of which breaks was developing as an international and grouping even before the conflict in ukraine and turn the kinetic after phase. but i think it's pretty clear that they've got a very substantial impetus with the start of the war and with the introduction of western sanctions against the restaurant against many other countries that are willing to trade with russia. do you think watson,

policy makers accounted for that? how sort through addressing that uh uh, in time sent on that policy to introduce sanctions, was at that time. i have to say that's more than 2 years back in one discussion and broadcast that i had on the serbian alternative tv channels and so on. i predicted that these sections, those restaurants will not be successful. i predicted, but it may be one or 2 years of negative relative turned out just one year of negative growth. but i also envisage that you know, that the country that has technology, capital, skilled labor, large internal market and all the production of all of these essential aspects. following this realization re, if someone wants to section such a country and a half a success with that, i'm thing that it's, it's basically it's a more visual thing to thinking that in reality, it's all too large economy with the structure which is self sustainable and,

and enough for internal growth. now, you know, frankly speaking, i'm not saying that they're not negative aspects. some of the international sanctions still regression to call them and you should know that better than i do. but at the same time, you know that the economy is growing in having to fail, give you high rates of growth, and the corporation there is still a very much are vibrant with the rest of the world. the something that is only helping in this, i think this process all obviously obviously this, i think the message that these sections separate them out for now i heard you say that one of the most common mistake is that the western policy makers choose to make about the roster it is claiming that it is a small or fragile economy, a gas station masquerading as a country on clearly anyone who look the professionally uh the rushes, budgeting, uh sheets, add its uh, balancing at its economic discipline. how it rolls back after the soviet co ops would know that it's not accurate, then it's not only about the size of the economy,

but also the skew. the ad for this thinking that went into rebuilding the country and you know, this may not be floyd, renew or rated by the gift country. and it's economy a certain strength that they cannot always sort of express and material terms. why do you think though this mess of rochester, the bonus is still getting so much purchase? well, i think the, the main reason is not understanding what the community really is and how it can be calculated. and the fact that most people do not know that the g d p is not a single indicator, but the activity of family in decatur phone, which you need to choose the and i the quick long for the analysis you want to make . so when you want to make an analysis compare in the countries with very different things at all, a level of prices and structural economy, you need to go to, to, to be competitive uh, corrected for the purchasing power parity. when you take that to see basically that the rest and you to be is more than 3 times larger than phenomenal to,

to be the people that are frequently used. secondly, and there is no physical fragility. it's a, it's a physical discipline in a country with a very, very low level of depth due to be much, much lower than what is it present in europe nowadays. and i believe that the last figure that i found the fiscal monitor, which is published by the i m. s was 17 percent of g d p, which is far, far below the average in europe, which is around 80 percent or united states which is not around almost kinda 30 percent of getting paid to do overall depth to date have. so this is in my view, macro economic, a country, them economy that is very hard to stabilize. and the people that have been talking about sanctions, i believe that they have something else. and in mind, you know, the smaller economy is which, which they had experience has previously and relative success. but i can tell you are coming from a very small economy with sanctions back in the ninety's. even our economies,

us divide, you know, there is always a possibility is to sidestep some of the, some of the sanctions. obviously that is much, much more a problem in, in a small country like so it'd be a bad and even even economy like, gosh, now, uh, serve in russia, clearly have a historical ties. but i, i do want to ask you as somebody who deals with hard matters of economy, i wonder if that quality of russia to be disciplined and validates financial matter is that we're about a, it's development is also something that attracts many of the countries to the brakes form and because a person who is speaking, this is something i think that to be respected this uh, you know, this quality of being not only self sufficient but also, you know, seeing your own was, this is appreciating your own strength trying to build from that do you think there's any attraction in that in the, in the world? i think that there is, i think that there is the potential for the,

the countries in the south to stats realizing it, understanding that with these 3 the, you raise and i call them is a china india in russia. you know, there is basically no fewer and fewer of need to the corporate suites, additional west of technology, the industry, military capacity, the overall economic is trying to do, you know, the terms of actually shifted in geographical terms from the west to east. and nowadays, if you, if you really want to acquire anything that is substantial for any developing the economy, i'm sure that a good besides west look also elsewhere and fulfilled their needs. and then, you know, united being a good way. so, you know, to south south corporation, my view should be decreased. and also, you know, one of these very good ideas that has emerged after the 2nd world war, which should have never been implemented. unfortunately, you know, the little bit,

you know, put on the side and never really been developed in those days at the end of 19 forties and beginning of the 1950s. it was also debated about creating the commodities and you know, the reserves depth with to keep the prices of agriculture products in other commodities, relatively stable. and that was something that would have, you know, very much help the development of un under developed economies. however, that didn't realize the only 2 institution, basically the state of your life, well will bank in the math and they have gradually, basically being steered perhaps a little bit away from the real interest of the developing world. let me ask you one more question about attractions, because i think ever since the soviet collapse, it was assumed that the european union is the main attraction for all your and team

countries. and they all want to be part of this, a big club because of its values, as you mentioned because of a high living sanders. and there was a sort of presumption within european western european politicians that they can choose from to befriend and they can sort of impulse 3 conditions on countries if they want to be. and there's some sort of a relationship with the european union. does this feel dove? this still sold to do you think the air is still as attractive as it believes itself to me? we don't really need to speculate too much. we can see what happens with them. but actually it obviously some people in the united kingdom and the majority was that, was there a, obviously in 2016 voted to get out of the, you know, through, over the depth was enough to bulk choice for the u. k. c. this is the, the long run, but it's obvious that europe is in the sort of a price is in terms of decision making, but also you see, dimension also, we think that the you coming from the west and ball comes,

i can also say that we are waiting in line for 20 years, nothing actually has happened. we are, you can say that we are not getting close by waiting in line. we are shifting away from, from european union. you can say they're up to a certain extent. i believe that the european union has as a problem if it wants to be called european. and at the same time, to the extent the largest economy on the continents, the country which has lots of statutory, which has the largest population, then obviously a very significant integrated power. i do not believe that unity in institutions should be uh, you know, the drawings on those grounds. i believe that they need to make a shift. and we'll see whether it may be some new political structures in europe. we'll be more aware of that fact. i'm 0, one last question. if i may, 1 of the most common words i, i heard being voice the,

the brakes on it then comes on and was respect. and i wanna ask you as an economist, how much respect matters when it comes to relationships between various countries. the policies such an important thing to do basically is round it on mutual respect . and this thing is something that, unfortunately, is quite, you know, put aside the many relationships with resources that we have seen in past couple of decades. there are countries, especially some in west that basically tried to impose solutions that are not to, you know, treating the other parties. it as an people in discussions that are not a problem to discussing the kinetic manner to solve problems before they are obviously, you know, undesirable fashion. so i believe that there is also a lack of the human capacity on the side of the kind of political leads and be actively pharmacy. my view has been intertwined almost the shelf kitchen. i believe

it's also the west or phrase that's what you get is what's your dad. so i guess it's not much a surprise the west increasingly finds itself in a minority. nevertheless, this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much for the by the way. thank you. and thank you for watching hope. the sooner again, on the wall is a part of the, [000:00:00;00] the the water is a part of the, the employee would posted isn't the

deepest view of us and building the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present there? let's stop without cases. let's go part of the breaking news. this. our a truck has rams into a bus stop. near is really intelligence headquarters with dozens of casualties reported some say, a majority of them are service fund the glass or rock the night in the lebanese capital as a garage of idea of bombs target favorite suburbs. for, for, to say strikes it, the vicinity of a refugee camp felt for this place and promised by the right person,

the citizens, nato,