it was an old, that means you can assume it isn't the guy was sick because in the most was it shapes and this is not only my own opinion, but just being saved by the law health organization. and by then i nations itself. so i bought it the main target here, they say that we are targeting to model, i'm in a town doctor's, but it is mostly tons of tourism because it carries the per complete pages. that is why it has violated each and every conventional geneva using the violation on dollars, sir. and doing on the so called biased against thomas, they targeted civilians, they targeted uh, health care facilities. and even in your news, you are seeing the 2 children died in the disappearing. and when did you notice that this is the situation? it is deliberately the targeting to have him at facilities because they want to

completely destroy the specific is so that it can force people to bleed and move to the saw some areas. and then they can take the north and they've got to make, they have been chevy. what we just think that there's somebody progressive time, but we'll keep the conversation going off all for it, but we want it to fit you in on there. because very interesting what you have to say during the shoddy adult, rockland live on archie the former governor of the bank of serbia offers his use next. and whether western sanctions against russia have heard most school more or the economies of the countries implementing the rosa part is the head. the

hello and welcome to worlds a part. the last 3 years of western economic warfare against russia, habits the deliver is a fatal blow to this problem. and it has dramatically changed with functioning on the global and particularly the western economies escaping washington's friendly fire, cutting losses. now preoccupying concerns for america's own allies, while the rest of the world is actively experimenting with new ways of doing business, our size, west and bondage, wherever having from here. well, to discuss them now and join by the cost of each professor bound raising university as possible to have a phenomena and former governor on the national bank of serbia. mr. charles kitchen is great to talk to thank you very much for being available. thank you for you. by the way, now we are recording this interval after the break summit and russia, which brought together not only the leaders of major developing economies, but pretty much the entire global south. and i think what's,

what was very important about the summit is that it's not only shot or the western narrative of russia's isolation, but follow closely. i think it's strength from those countries constant dense that they can deal with one another regardless of how uncle sam feels about it. do you think that's important? well, yes i do. you know, i believe that we are all living in a world in which there is perhaps system that are too busy information about the economic power of certain countries in the world. and i believe that the west is still living in the seventy's and eighty's concerning the relative economic sense of, you know, if we look at the data from the world bank, we see basically a different day, tre, for me take into consideration roles and mastic product, which is, you know, corrected for the purchasing power parity. the 3 it brings a lot of, i would say the grounds for additional confidence. and besides the image of the market, especially for the bricks conference,

the west is not the only not as powerful as it used to be. but i think the one of the points you're off on making your articles on in your interest is that it's actually wasting its power. that it has at this point of time to counter productively to try to heard russia with china. but it ends up hurting its own allies or its own economies. why do you think this a rationale persist? the why do you think the west is not so good at accounting for the consequences of its own actions for its own base, for its own allies or for itself? yes will. i believe that there is of widespread inertia about the role of the west and the global economy. and i think that the basic dates is from historical sides of the end of the 2nd world war veterans. united states economy was the dominant one. all the other potential competitors were actually having to be destroyed during the war itself. so in the fifty's and sixty's or seventy's and all the

global dollar and solve of united states was not the question and you can bowers in west, you can domain have also recovered. sold dominance of g 7. was that you can say, i'm disputed. however, nowadays, if people would like to be taking some consideration adequate measures, and they can only power, and that is most of the mastic product, but not the nominal, but the directors with purchasing power parity. and that is a very important distinction to do, to have in mind the, because purchasing power periods reaction takes into consideration the level, the difference in that they're looking level. all the internal price is the economies that you would like to compare. so therefore, if you use the jeep vehicles that are connected for the purchasing power parity, and you're looking for that to be in the, let's say world bang data, or i'm, if data is the one you'll see a very different picture. you'll see basically the long before largest economy using the world 3 are actually members of rates today. of china,

india and russia. russia being faults, india being 3rd, china being 1st and all. the 2nd place receipts, united states basically lagging behind china roughly about 20 percent. however, you know, west is still very important, but at the end of the game, you know, uh, west of new york city has always been heavily reliance on importing energy to a certain extent of, you know, raw materials even for this along and those other things that basically, russia has been proven provider of these commodities in the global market, especially serving the means of europe. and i believe that the sectionals coming from the country which has basically experienced sanctions lot south 2030 years back. i do pay the recall those those times as a very, it's very uh you know, for the laddies down, so my country, but at the same time, uh, we saw the dfcs connect to the really they uh, let's say that the man, it's old for the small economy, but for the logic on them, you're like, like,

for instance, russia is today like a full board was started a $64053.00 of us dollars and with the structure of the economy, which russia has. and with the very low level of f to g, d p, which russia has. and also, let's say the surplus tre. bell, about the schedule. if i, if i'm a, i do wanna discuss the particularities of russia's economic relationship with your up a little bit later, been there before we move there. and can i ask you a couple of questions about the breaks? because i think one of breaks, main distinctions, is that it wasn't created to counter anything, including the much criticized western economic and financial order. a, its main purpose for existence is essentially to advance the interest of its members states. it's very practically orient that. it's not a guest is for, and yet we are seeing a lot of i'm her cereal, attitude towards the brakes, pro western media and for a western politicians. why do you're seeing the west still sees the brakes and then

talking to a stick terms? because brakes, countries are primarily preoccupied with themselves rather than with the west. it seems to me that their view of things is if you are not with us, you are against us. you cannot be basically neutral. you could also have these dies with the various in 42 centers. all, all are doing believe flows, but you need to be basically part of just 112, and i do not see that it's a good option for many countries. i do know that it's may be a lot, not a good option for my country, but i see also there's a lot of companies like india also does light events added to that many others, you know, the so you know, this type of the 3 ballistic a way of thinking they need in global domain. i don't believe that there is a, you know, drive sir, triple dance. and brakes is basically giving us a different approach that i believe is, is a more rational long, well, to some extent in different but

a on the other side is also very similar to what i'm like, uh, the west advocate of in the past. because uh, brakes is a fairly loose organization and it stands by supervisors. like, for example, practicality over i do all a g, a mutual respect, freedom of choice, focus on development, and those are some of those values used to be praised in the west a couple of decades ago, but not anymore. how do you understand this? turning around a lot of things from changing the west. you know, we're looking from the edge of utah from the southeast europe. we will always and we were always aspiring towards european values, you know, the, the, the, the liberal society with the human rights. uh then you know, democracy uh, in uh, you know, wilted countries with good living standards and so on. there was a lot of attractiveness and there was a, i would say, a higher level of the intention to be fair in international relationship. i mean, it was a recall and the 1980s in the beginning of 19900. it wasn't

a surprise to see and see, or a politician was talking about the unified media and you know, sphere of, of cultivation from uh, you know, uh, less than 2 lovely balls stuck and so on and so forth. and unfortunately, bets and so to say romantic periods has a, you know, cease to exist during the ninety's. and i see that the prevailing policies nowadays in the west and will sometimes be as a calendar mind the core values that they have been advocating for for decades. now this romantic vision of newer of, and perhaps more broadly on, on the world, was also based on the promise that everyone would be able to partake and they call them girls. but when i uh, tried to analyze west an attitude towards growth and development right now, it's this rather, and jealous western countries seem to be very adversarial or jealous of other countries growth. whereas brakes seems to be taking a different attitude. it's more sort of uh, laid back and there is

a recognition that the prosperity of your neighbor also contributes to your own stability. so i wonder why each of these developmental paradigms, because these are very 2 different ways of looking at the world when wind or versus wind lows. which of these to do you thing may prevail over time. and i'm asking that not as a rhetorical question, but as an economic one. well, you know, it's weird call face of the, the end of the 1st world war, when there was a west side conference. and one of the very prominent members of the nation at that time, a famous economy is drawn liner case, actually advocated for not mediating germany as allowing germany to grow as a potential market for british france and other producers. and lucky the bose huge the, you know, the more repayments and such, she wasn't fortunately, minority mc very much. you're disappointed the decided to pull away from those uh, these thoughts and rather than the famous book, you know,

the economic consequences of peace. so if somebody can only perspective, there is a win win situation, there is no, not necessarily a 0 sum game and international relations because all neighbor and the others, which are, you know, the countries that vehicle operating with their drawings. and there is, that's also the potential for the market for our producers to grow. so we can corporation, i believe it shouldn't be any real company. we have the still, especially of by the countries in the west which have advocated for free trade for decades back to, you know, it shouldn't be quite, quite obvious that to the end of more cooperation, economic freedom and trade varies on opportunity for all to bureau and for the, you know, coming benefit is there's not only an opportunity for all to grow, but also so a very strong advantage for the west in particular, for the united states, which use its currency as a well promoted as currency as the universal global currency. but you have written a lot about the fact that these weaponized ation of the dollar,

if use as an instrument of unilateral block sanctions, is bad. not only for the financial system, it's bad for the west itself. how long do you think it will be until elizabeth west actually sees the negative consequences of that? well, the negative consequences all are already seen to a certain extent as well that maybe is being but not the recognize that the link in policy making. well, you can see there's a lot of people including the bulk of the learning, the others are saying something like, yeah, you know, dollars for their to stay for a long period of their habits along the talking. you know, way that it's the only system available and the only system possible. however, if we're living back to issues 3, again counting to the beast, confidence, and then um, you know, your bretton woods. we remember that even at that time, the dollar as a mean the international kind of so you have a competitor in the british model. the also advocated by

a previous investment on minor games and various to create an international kind of see which is all going to be the kind of seo and each individual states. and there is a very, to the reason for that. we have seen in the past couple of years. again, the reason did the reaffirmation of why it is not good to have any national academy . also serving the purpose of the national need for making payments, transactions and keeping reserves. we have seen that because the information from the us actually has spilled over into the rest of the economy. also in the us is for the already part internal purposes, raising interest rates to, let's say, current local inflation in the us very at the same time you've listing all the countries which need to raise depth in denominated into as dollars. they need to compete with these values of interest rates, as some of these countries simply cannot financially so lives. so such a pressure and that has to be the case will be assisting 19 eighties with a lot of the luxury economies here. that's all i need to, you know, imagine the public debt price is due to effect the date at that time. united states was dealing with their own internal in place. and paul walker was basically curbing

down and facing the united states with very, very high interest rates. so there are a lot of negatives below owners coming from the fact that the one national academy seem to escape us dollar is being used as a courtesy for the international trade. this also bring you developed a huge 3 and the deficit for the u. s. a. and a lot of other, let's say professional salt companies like to let 6 you do you think it's that foreman's stuff happen in new york? sometimes thousands and thousands kilometers away from the purchase or environmental certain goods. maybe in a get all the nasa can i use? yeah, less than americans. all. okay, well mr. sha scratch, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments state you in the

welcome back to all the parts with the on the 1st page, former governor of the national bank, all serbia. mr. schwartz gets just before the break we were talking about the um, inconveniences associated with having be here as dollar as the main reserve currency of the goal. but let's admit it's also pretty the well universal in use. and i know about even among the bricks countries, i assume. so i'm so, so this things that up to 65 percent of the trade is settled in alternative ways and violets roll currencies or in some other method is what whenever it's possible brakes country is also a trade in dollar and because it is convenient, do you think it's gonna ever be fully replaced um is sold by what? well, concerning the replacements. i mean we the need to also have in mind that before

1944 in the back of what the initiative was, there were other ways of settling international transactions. i mean, we also have from that period of time after the 1st world war, the banks on international 7 months, which 1st of all of these 6 years was actually put in place to facilitate these praise, which were at that time not conducted in us dollars. let me remind you, because dollar actually didn't, that was not the dominant to global courtesy before the 2nd world war. so alternatives are obviously there. you know, you can trade in your local county and you can potentially create a, create a unit to account for this to something like the past the hour or something like that. you can also maybe think further and try to do create to the really ending class we'll kind of see which would be capable of also increasing volume on his own . and the as the international trade grow slight during minor gains and visiting his bankcorp model. so i believe that that initiative is something that

might be addressed. again, there was a group of us economies after the great, the financial crisis of 2007 and 8, among which was the book. she gives us a lot of people who know below rates, and then we're discussing the possibility of creating the global kind of save the world money, which wouldn't be dollar, which would be something else. and i believe that to the now, from, you know, perspective of, of these recent events, you know, the, the blockage of funds, office of southern nations in their reserves, in dollars, euros, and other western count kinda says there is no, let's say an additional let me put this through to revisit this idea, i believe the very special, however, it's not easy to makes that really a solid alternative in a very short period of time. but this processing, any case, needs to be gradual and his normal says, the relative importance of us economy has been on the decline for decades back.

interesting. and i think that the process is already moving. i mean, it's have not produced any results yet, but uh, there were plenty of those discussions of the break fun of now speaking of which breaks was developing as an international and grouping even before the conflict in ukraine and turn the kinetic after phase. but i think it's pretty clear that they've got a very substantial impetus with the start of the war and with the introduction of western sanctions against the restaurant against many other countries that are willing to trade with russia. do you think watson, policy makers accounted for that? how sort through addressing that intentional and that policy to introduce sanctions was at that time. i have to say that's more than 2 years back in one discussion and broadcast that i have on silvia and alternative tv channels and so on. i predicted that these sections, those restaurants will not be successful. i predicted, but it may be one or 2 years of negative relative turned out just one year of

negative growth. but i also envisage that you know, that the country that has technology, capital, skilled labor, large internal market and all the production of all of these essential aspects for industrialization. re, if someone wants to sanction such a country and, and have a success with that. i'm thing that it's, it's basically it's a more visual thing to thinking down reality. it's too large economy with the structure which itself is sustainable and, and enough for internal growth. now, you know, and frankly speaking, i'm not saying that they're not negative aspects of, of international sanctions, but was it asked me to call them and you should know that better than i do. but at the same time, you know, the, the economy is growing in having to fail. can you high rates of growth and the corporate since there is still a very much vibrant with the rest of the world? is something that is only healthy in this, in this process. all obviously, obviously you're sending a message that these sections simply them out for now i heard you say that one of

the most common mistake is that the western policy makers choose to make about the roster. it is claiming that it is a small or fragile economy, a gas station masquerading as a country. and clearly anyone who needs to professionally uh, the rushes, budgeting uh sheets out its balancing at its economic discipline. how it rolls back after the soviet co ops would know that it's not accurate. and it's not only about the size of the economy, but also the skew. the ad for this thinking that went into rebuilding the country and you know, this may not be floyd, renew my rated by the gift country, and it's economy a certain strength that they've counted always sort of expressing material terms. why do you think though this mess of process people in this is still getting so much purchase? well, i think the, the main reason is not understanding what the community really is and how it can be

calculated. and the fact that most people do not know that the g d b is not a single indicator, but the activity, a family of indicator from which you need to choose the and i the quick long uh for the analysis you want to make. so when you want to make an analysis comparing the countries with very different things at all, a level of prices and structural economy, you need to go to, to, to be competitive uh, corrected for the purchasing power parity. when you take that, you'll see basically that the russian database more than 3 times larger than phenomenal, to repeat the people that are frequently used. secondly, and there is no physical fidelity, it's a, it's a physical disappointment or a conference with a very, very low level of depth to g to be much, much lower than what is it present in europe nowadays. and i believe that the last figure that i found the fiscal monitor was just all these by the i m. s was 17 percent of g d p, which is far, far below the average in europe, which is around 80 percent or united states which is not around almost kinda like a 30 percent of getting paid to do overall depth to date have. so this is in my

view, macro economic, a country, them economy that is very hard to, to stabilize. and the people that have been talking about sanctions, i believe that they have something else in, in mind. you know, the smaller economy is which, which they had experience has previously and relative success. but i can tell you are coming from a very small economy with sanctions back in the ninety's. even our economy has divide, you know, there is always a possibility. so the sites that some of the, some of the sanctions, obviously there is much, much more of a problem in, in a small country like so it'd be a bad and even even economy like gosh, now, uh sir, man, russia clearly have uh, historical ties. but i, i do wanna ask you as somebody who deals with hard matters of economy, i wonder if that uh, quality of raw should to be disciplined about its financial matters that were about

dates. development is also something that attracts many of the countries to the brakes. form and because a person who is speaking, this is something i think that to be respected this uh, you know, this quality of being not only self sufficient but also, you know, seeing your own uh with this is appreciating your own strength and trying to build from that do you think there's any attraction in that in the, in the world? i think that there is, i think that there is a potential for the, the countries in the south to south realizing and understanding that with these 3 the, you raise and they call them is a, china, india and russia. you know, there is basically no fewer and fewer of need to, uh, call place with the additional west technology industry, military capacity, the overall economic heroes trying, you know, the terms of actually shifted in geographical terms from the west,

through the east. and nowadays, if you, if you want to acquire anything that is substantial for anything that will give you call them. yeah, i'm sure what to do besides west look also elsewhere and fulfilled their needs. and then, you know, in a good way. so you know, to south south corporation, my view should be uh, decreased. and also, you know, one of these, uh, very good ideas that has to be emerged after the 2nd world war, which you have never been implemented. unfortunately, you know, the little bit, you know, put on the side and never really been developed in those days, at the end of 19 forties and beginning of the 1950s. it was also debated about creating the commodities and you know, the reserves definitely keep the prices of agriculture products in other commodities, relatively stable. and that was something that would have, you know, very much help the development of the under developed economies. however,

that didn't realize the only 2 institutions, basically the stadium life well world bank in the math and they have gradually, basically the be a steered perhaps a little bit away from the real interest solve the developing world. let me ask you one more question about attractions, because i think ever since the soviet collapse, it was assumed that the european union is the main attraction for all your and team countries. and they all want to be part of this, a big club because of its values, as you mentioned because of the high living standards. and there was a sort of presumption within european western european politicians that they can choose from to befriend and they can sort of impulse 3 conditions on kind. curious, if they want to be in some sort of a relationship with the european union. does this feel vis, still sold to do you think be is still as attractive as it believes itself to me.

we don't really need to speculate too much. we can see what happens with them. but actually it obviously some people in the united kingdom and the majority was, it was there, uh, obviously in 2016 voted to get out of the, you know, through, over the depth was enough to bulk choice for the u. k. c. this was in the long run, but of you saw me is that europe is in the sort of the price is in terms of decision making, but also you'll see the results. we think that the you coming from the west and ball comes. i can also say that we are waiting in line for 20 years. nothing actually has happened. we are and you can save if we are not getting close to it by waiting in line, we are testing away from, from european union. you can say that a to a certain extent, i believe that it's the, the european union has a problem. if it wants to be called european n a, the same time to uh, exclude the largest economy on the continents. the, the country which has lots of statutory,

which has the largest population and obviously a very significant military power. i do not believe that unity in institutions should be, uh, you know, the drawings on those grounds. i believe that they need to make a shift and we'll see whether it may be some new political structures in europe. we'll be more aware of dealt and that fact. uh huh. and, 0, one last question. if i made one of the most common words i, i heard being voice the, the brakes on it then comes on and was respect. and i wanna ask you as an economist, how much respect matters when it comes to relationships between various countries. the policies such an important thing to do basically is round it on mutual respect . and this thing is something that, unfortunately, is quite, you know, put aside the many relationships with the resources that we have seen in the past couple of decades. there are countries, especially some in west that basically tried to impose solutions that are not to

you know, treating the other parties that as an people in discussions that are not the problem to discussing it with the kinetic manner to solve problems before they are obviously you know undesirable fashion, so i believe that there is also a lack of you know, capacity on the side of the kind of political leads and be actively pharmacy. my view has been intertwined. almost the shelf kitchen. i believe it's also the west or a phrase that's what you get is what's your dad. so i guess it's not much a surprise, the west, the increasingly finds itself in a minority. nevertheless, this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much for the by the way. thank you. and thank you for watching hope. the searing down on the walls are part of the

the. 7 the breaking news from the heart of goes at least 9 people are reported killed and up to 20 more. when didn't, the latest is really strongly going to school building. use the shelter for displace palestinians intel a v. valerie ramos into a bus stop the leave to be beside israel is intelligent service, hate to cute. with dozens of council. please confirm. also address the ruling party appears to have comfortably won the georgian election. the nations prime minister, a little box opposition attempts to contest the results. thing are simply trying to justify their old.