the, the hello and welcome to worlds apart. the last 3 years of western economic warfare against russia happens to be a deliberate, a fatal blow to this problem. and it has dramatically changed with functioning on the global, and particularly the western economies escaping washington's friends with fire cutting losses. now preoccupying concerns for america's own allies. while the rest of the world is actively experimenting with new ways of doing business out size, west and bondage wherever, having from here. well, to discuss that, i'm now enjoying by the squash, kitch professor and bells racing universe. it is possible to have a phenomena as former governor on the national bank of serbia is as far as contents great to talk to thank you very much for being available. thank you for you. by the way. now we are recording this interval off to the break summit and russia,

which brought together not only the leaders of major developing economies, but pretty much the entire global south. and i think what's, what was very important about the summit is that it's not only shot or the western narrative of rushes, isolation, but follow closely. i think its strength from those countries constant dens that they can deal with one another regardless of how uncle sam feels about it. do you think that's important? well, yes i do. you know, i believe that we are all living in a world in which there is perhaps, system matter too busy information about the economic power of certain countries in the world. and i believe that the west is still living in the seventy's and eighty's concerning the relative economic status of you know, if we look at the data from the world banks, we see basically a different picture for me to take into consideration rose and mastic product, which is, you know, granted for the purchasing power parity, the 3 brings a lot of,

i would say the grounds for additional confidence. and besides the measure, the market special needs for the big scoundrels, the was the only not as powerful as it used to be. but i think the one of the points you're often making your articles on in your interest is that it's actually wasting its power. that it has at this point of time to counter productively to try to hurt russia with china. but it ends up hurting its own allies or its own economies. why do you think this a rationale persist? the why do you think the west is not so good at accounting for the consequences of its own actions for its own base, for its own allies or for itself? yes will. i believe that there is uh, of widespread inertia about the role of the west in the global economy. and i think that the basic dates is from historical sides of the end of the 2nd world war veterans. united states economy was the dominant one. all the other potential

competitors were actually having to be destroyed during the war itself. so in the fifty's and sixty's or seventy's and all the global dominance of, of united states was nothing question. and you can bowers in the west to you in domain have also be covered sold dominance of g 7 was you can say i'm disputed. however, nowadays, if people would like to be taking some consideration adequate measures and they can only power and that is gross domestic product, but not the nominal, but to connected with the purchasing power parity. and that is a very important distinction to, to, to have in mind the, because purchasing power periods, reaction it takes into consideration the level, the difference in looking level. all the internal price is the economies that you would like to compare. so therefore, if you use the jeep vehicles that are connected for the purchasing power parity, and you're looking for that to be in the, let's say, well, bang data or i'm, if data is the one you'll see

a very different picture. you'll see basically the long before largest economy using the world 3 are actually members of rich today of china, india and russia. russia being faults, india being 3rd, china being 1st ad on the 2nd place, receipts united states basically lagging behind china roughly about 20 percent. however, you know, west is still very important, but at the end of the game, you know, uh, wisdom you want to, the, has always been heavily reliant on importing energy to a certain extent of, you know, raw materials even for this along and those other things that basically, russia has been proven provider of these commodities in the global market, especially saving the needs of europe. and i believe that the sanctions coming from the country which has basically experienced sanctions, lot south 2030 years back. i do pay the recall those those times as a very, it's very uh you know, for the ladies down. so mike mc,

but at the same time we saw the dfcs connect to the really, the web say that the man that old for the small economy. but for the logic on them, you're like, like, for instance, rush raise today like a full board was sorry, a $6.00 to you as dollars the and with the structure of the economy, which restaurant has and with the very low level of f to g, d, p, which russia has. and also let's say the circle citrate, belly. well, the scripts, if i, if i may, i do wanna discuss the particularities of russia's economic relationship with you up a little bit later. but before we move there, can i ask you a couple of questions about the breaks? because i think one of breaks, main distinctions is that it wasn't created to counter anything, including the much criticized western economic and financial order. a, it's main purpose for existence is essentially to advance the interest of its members faith. it's very practically orient that. it's not a guest. it is for i'm yet, we are seeing a lot of i'm her cereal,

attitude towards the brakes, pro western media and from western politicians. why do you seeing the west still sees the brakes and then talking to a stiff terms? because brakes, countries are primarily preoccupied with themselves rather than with the west. it seems to me that their view of things is if you are not with us, you are against us. you cannot be basically neutral. you could also have these dies with the various important. so centers of all are doing believe lines, but you need to be basically part of just $112.00, and i do not see that it's a good option for many countries. i do know that it's may be a not, not a good option for my country, but i see also that a large company like india also does light that's added to the many others, you know, the so you know, this type of the 3 ballistic way of being continued in global domain, i don't believe that there is a, you know, drive sir,

triple dance and brakes is basic. any given us a different approach that i believe is in more rational long. well, to some extent a different but. a on the other side, it's also very similar to what i'm like uh, the west advocate of in the past. because uh, brakes is a fairly loose organization and it stands by supervisors. like, for example, practicality or over ideal, a g, a mutual respect, freedom of choice, focused on development, and those are some of those values used to be praised in the west a couple of decades ago, but not anymore. how do you understand this turning around? a lot of things seem changing the west, you know, we're looking from the edge of utah from the south east europe. we will always and we were always aspiring towards european values. you know, the, the, the, the liberal society with the human rights. uh then you know, democracy. uh, in uh, you know, wilted countries with good living standards and so on. there was a lot of attractiveness and there was a, i would say,

a higher level of the intention to be fair in international relationship. i mean, we do is the recall and the 19 eighties and the beginning of the 19900. it wasn't a surprise to see and see your politicians talking about the unified media and you know, sphere of, of cultivation from uh, you know, uh less than 2 lovely balls stuck and so on and so forth. and unfortunately, that's it. and so to say romantic video has a, you know, cease to exist during the ninety's. and i see that the prevailing policies nowadays in the west and will sometimes be as a calendar mind the core values that they have been advocating for for decades. uh huh. now this romantic vision of newer of, and perhaps more broadly on, on the world, was also based on the promise that everyone would be able to partake and they call them girls. but when i uh, tried to analyze west an attitude towards growth and development right now, it's this rather jealous western countries seem to be very adversarial or jealous

of other countries growth. whereas briggs seems to be taking a different attitude. it's more sort of uh, laid back and there is a recognition that the prosperity of your neighbor also contributes to your own stability. 1 i wonder which of these developmental paradigms because these are very 2 different ways of looking at the world when wins or versus windows. which of these 2 do you think may prevail over time? and i'm asking that not as a rhetorical question, but as an economic one. well, you know, it's weird call face of the, the end of the 1st world war, when there was the west side conference. and one of the very prominent members of the nation at that time frame is the call is drawn. liner canes actually advocated for not mediating germany as allowing germany to grow as a potential market for british french and other producers. and lucky the bows huge the, you know, the well re payments and such. she wasn't fortunately,

made out of gmc very much you're disappointed decided to pull away from those b stocks and rather the famous book, you know, the economic consequences of peace. so from the economic perspective, there is a win win situation. there is not, not necessarily a 0 sum game in international relations because all neighbor and the others, which are, you know, the countries that we are competing with. if they're growing, then there is, that's also the potential for the market for our producers to grow. so incorporation, i believe it shouldn't be, you know, completely understood especially of by the countries in the west which was advocated for free trade for decades back. you know, it shouldn't be quite, quite obvious that to the end of moral cooperation, economic freedom and trade. there is an opportunity for all drugs and for the, you know, coming benefit is there's not only an opportunity for all to grow and, but also so a very strong advantage for the west in particular,

for the united states, which use its currency as a well promoted as currency as the universal global currency, but you have written a lot about the fact that this weaponized ation of the dollar if use as an instrument of unilateral block sanctions, is that not only for the financial system, it's bad for. 5 the west itself, how long do you think it will be until elizabeth west actually sees the negative consequences of that? well, the negative consequences are already seen to a certain extent as well. there may be spam but not the recognize the police in policy making. well, you can see that a lot of people we can totally bulk them in and the others are saying something like, yeah, you know, dollars for their to stay for a long video. they have this along the talking, you know, way that it's the only system available. i'm the only system possible. however, if we live back to him, she's to be again coming to the beast, golf events and then um, you know, your bretton woods. we remember that even at that time, the dollar a, as

a mean the national academy. so you had a competitor already in the british model. the also advocated by a previous, a message on minor games. and there is to create an international gotta see, which is going to be the kind of c o n each individual states. and there is a variable the reason for that we have seen in the past couple of years. again, the reason i did it, the reaffirmation of why it is not good to have any national academy, also serving the purpose of international need for making payments transactions and keeping reserves. we can see that because that information from the u. s. actually has spilled over into the rest of the economy. also in the us is for the already but internal purposes, raising interest rates to let's say, current local inflation in the us very of the same time you've listing all the countries which you need to raise depth in the us dollars. they need to compete with these value of interest rates. and some of these countries simply cannot financially so lives, so such a pressure and that has to be the case can be assisting 19 eighties with

a lot of the mentoring economies here. that's all i need to, you know, imagine the public debt price is due to the fact that they at that time united states was dealing with their own internally place. and paul walker was basically cutting down and facing the united states with very, very high interest rates. so there are a lot of negatives below owners coming from the fact that the one that's look, i don't see this case us dollar is being used as a courtesy for the international trade. this also bring you give out the huge range deficit for the u. s. a and a lot of other, let's say professional salt companies like to, let's say you're getting a settlement that happened in new york, sometimes thousands and thousands kilometers away from the purchase or in by you know, certain goods. maybe in a get all the math for can i use you? i left an american saw. okay, well mr. shaw sketch, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. the

what is part of the, the employee would post good isn't the defense you of us and that in the word part, is it something deeper, more complex might be present there? let's stop without cases let's go to the product. as there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth is the case of the med, most of the people i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also a pursuit. this is 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to be living on mac, have very close propaganda. you know, price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions,

you should ask all of the questions. some more questions ask a better. the answer is will be the welcome back to will the parts with the on sausage, former governor on the national bank. all serbia. mr shortcuts. just before the break, we were talking about the um, inconveniences associated with having be here as solar as the main reserve currency of the goal. but let's admit it's also pretty the well and universal in use and i know about it when among the bricks countries i, i've seen some stuff for this. things that up to 65 percent of the trade is settled in alternative ways. and violets will currencies, or in some other method, is what, whenever it's possible breaks countries also

a trade in dollar. and because it is convenient, do you think it's an adverb, be fully replaced, um, is sold by what? well, concerning the replacements. i mean, we the need to also the heavy lines that before 1944 and brought them with the initial at the there were other ways of settling international transactions. i mean, we also have from that period of time after the 1st world war, the banks on international 7 months, which was one of the 6 years i was actually put in place. the facilitates these crates, which were at that time not to conduct as a new as dollars. let me remind you, because dollar actually didn't. that was not the dominant global courtesy before the 2nd world war. so alternatives are obviously there. you know, you can trade in your local county and you can put actually create a, create a unit of accounts for this to something like the past the hour or something like that. you can also, maybe it's a thing further and try to do create the really any class will kind of see which would be capable of also increasing volume on his own. and the as the

international trade grow slight dro minor gains and visiting his bankcorp the money . so i believe that that initiative is something that might be addressed. again, there was a group of us economies after the great, the financial crisis of 2007 and 8, among which was the book. she gives us a lot of people who know the low rates that were discussing the possibility of creating the global kind of see the world money, which wasn't be dollar, which would be something else. and i believe that to the, now, from your perspective of, of these recent events, you know, the, the blockage of funds of pacific southern nations in the reserves in dollars, euros, and other western con, you know, kind of says there is, now let's say an additional let me put this to revisit this idea. i believe that there is potential. however, it's not easy to make that re a solid alternative in

a very short period of time. but this processing, any case, needs to be gradual and his normal since the relative importance of us economy has been on the decline for decades back. interesting. and i think that process is already moving. i mean, it has not produced any results here, but the, there were plenty of size discussions of the break funding. now, speaking of which breaks was developing as an international and grouping even before the conflict in your praying and turns. it's kinetic as to phase, but i think it's pretty clear that in got a very substantial impetus with the start of the war and with the introduction of western sanctions against the restaurant against many other countries that are willing to trade with russia. do you think watson, policy makers accounted for that? how sort through a j thing that uh uh, in time. so no, and that posted to introduce sanctions was at that time, i have to say that's more than 2 years back in one discussion and broadcast that i

have on. so it'd be an alternative tv channels and so on. i predicted that these sections, though, was restaurant will not be successful. i predicted, but it may be one or 2 years of negative relative turned out just one year of negative growth. but i also envisage that you know, that the country that has technology, capital, skilled labor, large internal market and all the production of all of these essential aspects. following this realization, re, if some of the most of the sections such a country and, and have a success with that. i think that it's, it's basically it's a more visual thing to thinking about. in reality, it's too large economy. we have to the structure which itself is sustainable and enough for internal growth. now, you know, frankly speaking, i'm not saying that there are lots of negative aspects of, of international sanctions towards it asked me to call the industry know that better that i do. but at the same time, you know, the, the economy is growing and having fail, give you high rates of growth and the corporation there is still

a very much for vibrant with the rest of the world is something that is only healthy in this, in this process. all obviously, obviously you're sending a message that these sections simply them out for the. now i heard you say that one of the most common mistake is that the western policy makers choose to make about the roster is claiming that it is a small or fragile economy, a gas station masquerading as a country on. clearly, anyone who look at the process shanella as rushes budgeting sheets add its balancing at its economic discipline, how it rolls back after the soviet co ops with know that it's not accurate. and it's not only about the size of the economy, but also the skew. the ad for this thinking that went into rebuilding the country and you know, this may not be floyd, renew my rated by the gift country, and it's economy a certain strength that they've counted always sort of express in material terms. why do you think though this mess of process people in this is still getting so

much purchase? well, i think the, the main reason is not understanding what the genie pay really is and how it can be calculated. and the fact that most people do not know that the g d b is not a single indicator, but the activity of family mean decatur phone, which you need to choose the and i think with long for the analysis you want to make. so when you want to make an analysis comparing the countries with very different things are all a level of prices and structural economy. you need to go to ttp, compare that corrected for the purchasing power parity. when you take that to see basically that the russian gdp is more than 3 times larger than the nominal g to be the people that are frequently used. secondly, there is no physical fragility. it's a, it's a physical to be something in a country with a very, very low level of depth to g to be much, much lower than what is it present in europe nowadays. and i believe that the last figure that i found the fiscal monitor, which is published by the i m f,

was 17 percent of g, d p, which is far, far below the end of the 10 years, which is around 80 percent or united states, which is not running, almost kind of 30 percent of getting paid to do all world up to date have. so this is remind you met freakonomics a country then economy that is very hard to stabilize and the people that have been talking about sanctions. i believe that they have something else in mind, you know, a smaller economies which with which they had experience as previously and relative success. but i can tell you are coming from a very small economy with sanctions back in the ninety's, even our economies, us divide, you know, there is always a possibility. so the sites that some of the, some of the sanctions, obviously that is much, much more a problem in a small country like so it'd be a man of human human economy. like i said, now, uh sir, man, russia clearly have a historical ties. but i,

i do want to ask you as somebody who deals with hard matters of economy, i wonder if that quality of russia to be disciplined and validates financial matter is that we're about to it's development is also something that attracts many of the countries to the brakes form and because a person who is speaking, this is something i think that to be respected this uh, you know, this quality of being not only self sufficient but also, you know, seeing your own uh with this is appreciating your own strength and trying to build from that, do you think there's any attraction in that in the, in the world? i think that there is, i think that there is the potential for the, the countries in the south to south realizing that understanding that with these 3 the, you raise and i call them is a, china, india and russia. you know, there is basically no fewer and fewer of need to the corporate suites, additional,

the west of technology, the industry, military capacity. overall economic is trying, you know, the terms of actually shifted in geographical terms from the west to east. and nowadays, if you, if you me want to acquire anything that is substantial for any developing you call them. yeah, i'm sure that they could, besides west look also elsewhere and fulfilled their needs. and then, you know, you know, being a good way. so you know, to south south corporation, my view stuff should be uh, decreased. and also, you know, one of these, uh, very good ideas that has been merged after the 2nd world war. we should have never been implemented. unfortunately, you know, the little bit the, you know, put on the side and never really been developed in those days, at the end of 19 forties and beginning of the 1950s. it was also debated about creating the commodities and you know, the reserves definitely keep the prices of agriculture products in other

commodities, relatively stable. and that was something that would, you know, very much help the development of the under developed economies. however, that didn't realize the only 2 institutions, basically the state of your life, well will bank and the i m s, and they have gradually, basically the be steered perhaps a little bit away from the real interest of the developing world. let me ask you one more question about attractions because i think ever since the story of the collapse, it was assumed that the european union is the main attraction for all european countries. and they all want to be part of this, a big club because of its values, as you mentioned because of a high living standards. and there was a sort of presumption within european western european politicians that they can choose from, from the befriend. and they can sort of impulse brick conditions on countries if

they want to be in a some sort of a relationship with the european union that these feel vis. still sold to do you think the air is still as attractive as it believes itself to be. we, we don't really need to speculate too much, we can see what happens with them. but actually, it's obviously some people in the united kingdom. and the majority was that, was there a, obviously in 2016 voted to get out of the, the, you know, through, over the depth was enough to bulk choice for the you can, as it is in the long run, spots of the soviet, that's europe. is in the sort of a price is in terms of decision making, but also you see there is also, we think that the you coming from the west and ball comes i can also say that we are waiting utilized for 20 years. nothing actually has to happen where you can save if we are not getting close to it by waiting in line. we are testing away from, from european union. you can say they're up to a certain extent. i believe that the, the, the european union has a problem if it wants to be called european. and at the same time,

to the extent the largest economy uh, on the continents uh, the country which has lots of statutory which has the largest population and obviously a very significant military power. i do not believe that, you know, the institutions should be, uh, you know, the drawings on those grounds. i believe that they need to make a shift. and we'll see whether it may be some new political structures in europe. we'll be more aware of that fact. an o one last question, if i may, 1 of the most common words i, i heard being voice the, the brakes on it then comes on and was respect. and i want to ask here is an economy is how much respect matters when it comes to a relationship between various countries. the policy is such an important thing to do basically is around its own mutual respect. and this thing is something that, unfortunately, is quite, you know,

put aside the many relationships with the resources that we have seen in the past couple of decades. there are countries, especially some in the west that basically tried to impose solutions that are not to you know, treating the other parties as an people in discussions that are not a problem to discussing the diplomatic manner to solve problems before they are obviously, you know, undesirable fashion so i believe that there is also of select all of the, you know, capacity on the side of the kind of political leads and be actively promising. my view has been either trying almost the shelf kitchen. i believe it's also the west or phrase. that's what you get is what your dad. so i guess it's not much a surprise the west increasingly finds itself in a minority. nevertheless, this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much for the by the way. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to center again on a well as

a part of the the, what is part of the, the employee would posted isn't the defense you of us and building the word? or is it something deeper, more complex might be present there?

let's stop without keesha's desktop product. as the this election can not be recognized, because it's the recognition of russia's incursion, georgia's subordination to russia. george's opposition president accuses moscow of meddling in the parliamentary election as the pro western politician rejects the ruling parties. victory also ahead the at least 9 people are reported killed the latest is rarely striking on the school building used as a shelter for displaced palestinians and gods and, and the stories that shaped the weak apartments used as firing positions and van dyke, munitions, that's what our correspondent found left behind.