what, well, yes i do, you know, i believe that we are all living in a world in which there is perhaps system meta too busy information about the economic power of certain countries in the world. and i believe that the west is still living in the seventy's and eighty's concerning the relative economic sense of you all the for look at the data from the world banks. we see basically a different picture for me to take into consideration rose and mastic product, which is, you know, corrected for the purchasing power parity. the 3 brings a lot of, i would say the grounds for additional confidence and the side of the merger. the market special needs for the brakes conferencing. mm hm. the west is not the only not as powerful as it used to be, but i think the one of the points you're often making your articles on in your interest is that it's actually wasting its power, that it has a best point of time to counter productively to try to afford russia with china, but it ends up hurting its own allies or its own economies. why do you think this

a rationale persist? the why do you think the west is not so good at accounting for the consequences of its own actions for its own base, for its own allies or for itself? yes will. i believe that there is uh, of widespread inertia about the role of the west in the global economy. and i think that the basic dates is from historical facts of the end of the 2nd world war veterans. united states economy was the dominant one. all the other potential competitors were actually having to be destroyed during the war itself. so in the fifty's and sixty's or seventy's and all the global dollar and solve of united states was not the question. and you can bowers in the west to you in domain have also be covered sold dominance of g 7 was you can say i'm disputed. however, nowadays, if people would like to be taking some customization, adequate measures, and they can only while we're in that is pros domestic product,

but not the nominal. that's correct is with the purchasing power parity. and there is a very important distinction to do to have in mind the, because purchasing voluntary direction it takes into consideration the level, the difference in looking level. all the internal price is the economies that you would like to compare. so therefore, if you use the g p code that uh, corrected for the purchasing power parity, and you're looking for that to be in the, let's say world bank data or i'm, if data is the one you see a very different picture. you'll see basically the long before largest economies in the world, 3 are actually members of rates today. the china, india, and russia. russia being faults, india being 3rd, china being 1st ad on the 2nd place. you see united states basically lagging behind china roughly about 20 percent. however, you know, west is still very important. but at the end of the game, you know, less than you want to. the has always been heavily reliant on importing energy to

a certain extent of, you know, raw materials even for this along and those other things that basically russia has been proven provider of these commodities in the global market, especially saving the needs of europe. and i believe that the sanctions coming from the country which has basically experienced sanctions, lot south 2030 years back. i do pay the recall those those times as a very, very uh, you know, people medic down. so my country, but at the same time, uh, we saw the dfcs connect to the really, the uh, let's say that the man, it's old for the small economy. but for the logic on them, you're like, like, for instance, russia is today like a full board was sorry, a $6.00 to you as dollars the and with the structure of the economy, which restaurant has and with the very low level of f to g, d, p, which russia has. and also let's say the surplus of trade bell about the task and see if i, if i'm a, i do want and discuss the particularities of russia's economic relationship with

your up a little bit later. been there before we move there or can i ask you a couple of questions about the breaks? because i think one of breaks, main distinctions is that it wasn't created to counter anything, including the much criticized western economic and financial order. a, its main purpose for existence is essentially to advance the interest of its members states. it's very practically oriented. it's not a guest is support. and yet we are seeing a lot of i'm her cereal, attitude towards the brakes, pro western media and pro western politicians. why do you seeing the west still sees the brakes and then talking to a stick terms? because brakes, countries are primarily preoccupied with themselves rather than with the west. it seems to me that their view of things is if you are not with us, you are against us. you cannot be basically neutral. you could also have these dies with a very simple working to the centers. all of all are doing believe lines,

but you need to be basically part of just one club and i do not see that it's a good option for many countries. i do know that it's may be a not, not a good option for my country, but i see also that a large company like india also dozens live that's added to the many others. you know, the so you know, this type of the 3 ballistic way of being continued in global demand. i don't believe that there was a lot of, you know, drives sir. triple dance and breaks is basic units giving us a different approach that i believe is in more rational, long. well, to some extent indifferent, but uh on the other side. it's also very similar to what i'm the west advocate of in the past. because uh, brakes is a fairly loose organization and it stands by supervisors. like, for example, practicality over i do all a g, a mutual respect, freedom of choice, focus on development, and those are some of those values you to be praised in the west. a couple of

decades ago, but not anymore. how do you understand this? turning around a lot of things from changing the west. you know, we're located from the edge of utah from the southeast europe. we will always and we were always aspiring towards european values, you know, the, the, the, the liberal society with the human rights a then you know, democracy in, uh, you know, wilted countries with good living standards and so on. there was a lot of attractiveness and there was of, i would say, a higher level of the intention to be fair to meet the national relationship. i mean, we do is the recall and the 19 eighties and the beginning of the 1990s. generally, it wasn't a surprise to see and see your politicians talking about the unified media and you know, sphere of cultivation from uh you know, uh less than 2 lovely balls stuck and so on and so forth. and unfortunately through that, and so to say romantic video has a, you know, cease to exist during the ninety's. and i see that the prevailing policies nowadays

in the west and will sometimes be as a calendar mind the core values that they have been advocating for for decades. uh huh. now this romantic vision of newer, of, and perhaps more broadly on, on the world, was also based on the premises that everyone would be able to for taking the colon grove. but when i uh, tried to analyze western attitude towards growth and development right now, it's this rather jealous western countries seem to be very adversarial or jealous of other countries growth. whereas brakes seems to be taking a different attitude. it's more sort of uh, laid back and there is a recognition that the prosperity of your neighbor also contributes to your own the bill it to you. so. 1 i wonder why each of these developmental paradigms, because these are very 2 different ways of looking at the world when, when or versus when louis, which of these 2 do you think may prevail over time. and i'm asking that not as

a rhetorical question, but as an economic one. well, you know, it's weird call face of the end of the 1st world war when there was of the site conference. and one of the very prominent members of the nation at that time frame is the call is drawn. liner canes actually advocated for not mediating germany as allowing germany to grow as a potential market for british french and other producers. and not to be both huge . the, you know, the well repayments and such, she wasn't fortunately, made audit gmc very much you're disappointed decided to pull away from those uh, based docs and rather than the famous book, you know, the economic consequences of peace. so from the economic perspective, there is a win win situation. there is no, not necessarily a 0 sum game and international relations because all neighbor and the others, which are, you know, the countries that we are competing with. if they're growing, then there is, that's also the potential for the market for our producers to grow. so in

corporation, i believe it shouldn't be, you know, completely understood, especially by the countries in the west which was advocated for free trade for decades. back, you know, it shouldn't be quite, quite obvious that to the end of more cooperation, economic freedom and trade varies. i'm gonna put you in a t for all to grow, and for the, you know, come and benefit is there's not only an opportunity for all to grow and, but also a very strong advantage for the west. in particular, for the united states, which use its currency as a well promoted as currency as the universe. so a global currency, but you have written a lot about the fact that this weaponized ation of the dollar if use as an instrument of unilateral block sanctions, is bad. not only for the financial system, it's bad for the west itself. how long do you think it will be until elizabeth west actually sees the negative consequences of that? well, the negative consequences is all of our all ready seem to

a certain extent as well. there may be spam but not the recognize the police in policy making. well, you can see there's a lot of people we can totally bulk them in. and the others are saying something like, yeah, you know, dollars for their to stay for a long video. they have this along the talking, you know, way that it's the only system available. i'm the only system possible. however, if i'm living back to him, she's to be again coming to the beast, golf and i just and then um, you know, your bretton woods. we remember that even at that time, the dollar as a mean the national academy, so you have a competitor, it in the british model. the also advocated by a previous, a message on my, their case. and there is to create an international kind of see which is all going to be the kind of c o n each individual states. and there is a very close reason for that. we have seen in the past couple of years. again, the reason i did it, the reaffirmation of why it is not good to have any national academy, also setting the purpose of international need for making payments transactions and

keeping reserves. we can see that because that information from the u. s. actually has spilled over into the rest of the economy. also in the us is for the already but internal purposes, raising interest rates to let's say, current looking at replacing in the us very the same time you've listing all the countries which you need to raise that in the us dollars. they need to compete with these value of interest rates, as some of these countries simply cannot financially survive. so such a pressure and that has to be the case for resisting 19 eighties when a lot of the military economies here. that's all i need to, you know, imagine the public debt prices do you think affect the date at that time. united states was dealing with their own internal in place. and paul walker was basically cutting down and facing the united states with very, very high interest rates. so there are a lot of negatives below owners coming from the fact that the one that's look, i don't see this case us dollar is being used as a courtesy for the international trade. this also bring you developed a huge range deficit for the u. s. a. and a lot of other but say, but so salt companies like to lead 6, you getting

a sample mens stuff happen in new york, sometimes thousands and thousands kilometers away from the purchase or in by you know, certain goods. maybe in a get all the nasa can asia, i left an american so all okay, well mr. sha sketch, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. state you, in the, the way to condemn states is the steps of getting the net man, but of some of those things in mind that got those. com yes . can you my shows and you much the number you just didn't check from the magic,

you know, whatever the missed on this meeting goes to the store. yeah. from between the unlimited device usage across the street. the subject, you know, i mean, i get unlimited. do i wanted to let them eat too? i mean, the clips can we can also just do that. just the mcgill, i'm the mother to release the financing. uh either give me the quote and assume a little ocean. move them to see what's going to be moved to bowers. i'm gonna sit on the split them huge company system. i'm still checking their st. mary's who's opinions because of the stuff i need to know. who's got the boy lived in georgia with no way most eating. curtis the

welcome back to world the parts with the foster coach, former governor on the national bank, all serbia. mr. schwartz gets just before the break we were talking about the um, inconveniences associated with having be here as dollar as the uh and it made reserve currency over the goal. but let's on me, that's also privy a well we universe. so in use and i know about even among the bricks countries, i've seen some stuff for this. things that up to 65 percent of the trade is settled in alternative ways in pilots, ro, currencies or in some other method is what,

whenever it's possible breaks country is also a trade in dollar. and because it is convenient, do you think you can ever be fully replaced um is sold by what? well, concerning the replacements. i mean, we need to also, uh, have you lined up before 1944 in the back of what you said that you moved. there were other ways of circling international transactions. i mean, we also have from that period of time after the 1st world war, the banks on international 7 months, which was one of the 6 years i was actually put in place to facilitate these praise, which were at that time not conducted in us dollars. let me remind you, because dollar actually didn't, that was not the dominant to global kind of see before the 2nd world war. so alternatives are obviously there. you know, you can trade in your local county and you can potentially create a, create a unit to account for this to something like the past the hour or something like that. you can also maybe think further and try to,

to create the really an international kind of see which would be capable of also increasing volume on his own. and the, as the international trade grow slight during minor gains and visiting his bankcorp model. so i believe that that initiative is something that might be addressed. again, there was a group of us economies after the great, the financial crisis of 2007 and $8.00 among which was the senior. so some of the people who know the low rates there were discussing the possibility of creating the global kind of see the world money, which wasn't be dollar, which would be something else. and i believe that to the around thank you. perspective, both of these recent events, you know, the, the, the blockage of funds of this, of southern nations in their reserves, in dollars, euros, and other western can kinda see if there is now, let's say an additional let me put this to revisit this idea. i believe that there

is potential, however, it's not easy to make that re a solid alternative to the very short period of time. but this process, in any case, needs to be gradual and his normal since the relative importance of us economy has been on the decline for decades back. interesting. and i think that the process is already moving. i mean it's have not produced any result. yeah, but the, there were plenty of those discussions of the break funding. now, speaking of which breaks was developing as an international and grouping even before the conflict in ukraine and turn the kinetic after phase. but i think it's pretty clear that they've got a very substantial impetus with the start of the war and with the introduction of western sanctions against the restaurant against many other countries that are willing to trade with russia. do you think western policy makers accounted for that? how sort through addressing that uh, the intention on that policy to introduce sanctions was at that time. i have to say

that's more than 2 years back in one discussion and broadcast that i have on sylvia and alternative tv channels and so on. i predicted that these sections, those restaurants will not be successful. i predict it, but it may be one or 2 years of negative relative turned out just one year of negative growth. but i also envisage that you know, that the country that has different ology, capital, skilled labor, large internal market, and all the production of all of these essential aspects. following the stipulation, re, if someone wants to section such a country and, and have a success with that, i think that it's, it's basically, it's a more visual thing to thinking that in reality, it's all to large economy with the structure which itself sustainable and enough for internal growth. now, you know, frankly speaking, i'm not saying that there are lots negative aspects of all the international sanctions towards the lesson to call them. and you should know that better than i do. but at the same time, you know that the economy is growing in having to fail,

give you high rates of growth, and the corporation varies. still very much are vibrant with the rest of the world is something that is only healthy in this, in this process. all obviously, obviously you're sending a message that these sections uh, separate them out for huh. now i heard you say that one of the most common mistake is that the western policy makers choose to make about the roster is claiming that it is a small or fragile economy, a gas station masquerading as a country on. clearly, anyone who needs to professionally uh, the rushes budgeting, uh sheets, add its uh, balancing at its economic discipline, how it rolls back after the soviet co ops would know that it's not accurate, then it's not only about the size of the economy, but also the skew. the ad for this thinking that went into rebuilding the country. you know, this may not be floyd, renew or rated by the gift country. and it's economy a certain strength that they've counted always sort of expressing material terms.

why do you think though this mess of process feebleness is still getting so much purchase? well, i think the main reason is not understanding what the genie paid really is and how it can be calculated. and the fact that most people do not know that the g to be is not a single indicator, but the activity, a family, i mean, the canter phone, which you need to choose the. and i have a quick long for the analysis you want to make. so when you want to make an analysis compare in the countries with very different things that are all a level of prices and structural economy, you need to go to, to be competitive uh, corrected for the purchasing power parity. when you take that to see basically the us and you get these more than 3 times larger than the nominal g to be that the bowl very frequently used. secondly, and there is no physical fragility, is a physical discipline in a country with a very, very low level of depth of gdp, much much lower than what is it present in europe nowadays?

and i believe that the last figure that i found the fiscal monitor, which was published by the i m f, was 17 percent of g, d p, which is far, far below the average in europe, which is around 80 percent or united states, which is not around almost kinda 30 percent of getting paid to do overall depth to date have. so this is remind you macroeconomic a country them economy that is very hard to stabilize and the people that have been talking about sanctions. i believe that they have something else in mind. you know, the smaller economy is which, with which they had experience has previously and relative success. but i can tell you are coming from a very small economy with sanctions back in the ninety's. even our economy has divide, you know, there is always a possibility. so the sites that some of the, some of the sanctions, obviously there is much, much more a problem in, in a small country like so it'd be a bad and even even economy like gosh, now, uh,

serve in russia, clearly have a historical ties. but i, i do want to ask you as somebody who deals with hard matters of economy, i wonder if that quality of raw should to be disciplined and validates financial matter is that we're about a, it's development is also something that attracts many of the countries to the brakes form and because a person who is speaking, this is something i think that to be respected this uh, you know, this quality of being not only self sufficient but also, you know, seeing your own uh with this is appreciating your own strength and trying to build from that. do you think there's any attraction in that in the, in the world? and i think that there is, i think that there is the potential for the, the countries in the south to stats realizing it, understanding that with these 3 the, you raise and i call them is a china india in russia. you know, there is basically no fewer and fewer of need to the corporate suites. additional,

the west of technology, the industry, military capacity, the overall economic is trying to do, you know, the terms of actually shifted in geographical terms from the west to east. and nowadays, if you, if you really want to acquire anything that is substantial for any developing the economy, i'm sure that a good besides west look also elsewhere and fulfilled their needs. and then, you know, united being a good way. so, you know, to south south corporation, my view should be decreased. and also, you know, one of these very good ideas that has to be emerged after the 2nd world war, which you have never been implemented. unfortunately, you know, the little bit, you know, put on the side and never really been developed in those days, at the end of 19 forties and beginning of the 1950s. it was also debated about creating the commodities and you know,

the reserves definitely keep the prices of agriculture products in other commodities, relatively stable. and that was something that would have, you know, very much help the development of, um, under developed economies. however, that didn't realize the only 2 institutions, basically the stadium life well world bank in the math and they have gradually, basically being steered perhaps a little bit away from the real interest of the developing world. let me ask you one more question about attractions because i think ever since the soviet collapse, it was assumed that the european union is the main. it's tasha for all your team countries and they all want to be part of this a big club because of its values. as you mentioned because of the high living standards. and there was a sort of presumption within european western european politicians that they can choose from to befriend and they can sort of impulse brick conditions on countries

if they want to be in a some sort of a relationship with the european union. does this phil, uh, does this still sold to do you think the air is still as attractive as it believes itself to me? we don't really need to speculate too much. we can see what happens with them. but actually it's obviously some people in the united kingdom and the majority was that was there. uh, obviously in 2016 voted to get out of the, you know, sort of where the depth was enough to bulk choice for the u. k. c. this is in the long run, but of the soviet that europe is in the sort of a price is in terms of decision making, but also you'll see the results that we think that the you coming from the west and ball comes. i can also say that we are waiving utilize, between the years, nothing actually has happened. we are, you can save if we are not getting close by waiting in line. we are shifting away from, from european union. you could say that a, to a certain extent,

i believe that the, the, the european union has a problem if it wants to be called european. and at the same time, to the extent the largest economy uh, on the continents uh, the country which has lots of statutory which has the largest population and obviously a very significant indicated power. i do not believe that unity in institutions should be uh, you know, the drawings are on those grounds. i believe that they need to make a shift. and we'll see whether it may be some new political structures in europe. we'll be more aware of dealt with that fact an o one last question. if i may, 1 of the most common words i, i heard being or as the band breaks on, it then comes on and was respect. and i want to ask you as an economist, how much respect matters when it comes to relationships between various countries. the policies such an important thing to do basically is round it on mutual respect

. and this thing is something that, unfortunately, is quite, you know, put aside the many relationships the police have significant saving past couple of decades. there are countries, especially some in west that basically tried to impose solutions that are not to, you know, treating the other parties. it as an people in discussions that are not a problem to discussing it with the kinetic manner to solve problems before they are obviously, you know, undesirable fashion. so i believe that there is also a lack of the human capacity on the side of the kind of political leads and be actively promising. my view has been intertwined on the shelf, sketch. and i believe it's also the west or phrase that's what you get is what's your dad. so i guess it's not much a surprise, the west, the increasing we finds itself in a minority. nevertheless, this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very

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