policy, special coverage of the us presidential election. the hello and welcome to worlds a part american presidential elections have always been more about personalities, then policy issues and perhaps estimate science because the policies have a different that's much from one of ministration to the next. at least in this century, but given that the state of score is increasingly hard to sustain, can 2024 in the change, how the, who is public politics operates and who, what it takes for granted. well, to discuss that, i'm now enjoyed by wilmer lee on an american political scientist with ally on is going to talk to your thank you very much for being available. my pleasure. thank

you for the invitation. so in your writing and in your interviews, you consistently make the argument that elections should be about policies, uh and reflect the police to some extent the will of the constituents. but let me start by asking which actual american elections in the past couple of decades delivered that i mean elections, not as the political theatre, so that the powers that be, or the amount of american public at large can sustain dismiss all for democratic governments, but elections that genuinely tried to execute the will of the people and put it into practice. i would, i would say the last election that i believe were we had substantive debate was probably the 2007. so brock obama, john mccain election. and i say that because i think that started

with the actual primary campaign between but rock obama and hillary clinton because you didn't have an incumbent president running for reelection. you didn't have a sitting vice president running to become president. the field was wide open and with that wide open field that brought it off a lot of individuals that off a lot of ideas to the forefront. and so i would have to say it was the, the 2007 the bronco, bye. and then also the, the 2012 obama mitt romney campaign was probably another. another example that was, that was probably the last one. can i ask her here? because a president obama was a truly inspirational figure, at least in the beginning. i mean to all of us through to arrive to people around the world, then i remember that campaign being indeed very vibrant. i think he was also very noble in the way how he's going to and reached out to people not only the black

communities, but also communities. uh uh, you know, across many demographics, but the president obama actually deliver what he promised because he got talking about the debate. but as far as i remember, you know, uh, believe him competing and many of the problem is the same and the domestic font, it was a rather disappointing given b and seriously asthma in the beginning. or, oh, absolutely, uh, the whole idea of hoping change. we had the uh, the latino community with si se puede a yes we can. um that was the that was the mantra. but no, did he deliver on? did he deliver on the progressive agenda that he ran on? no, he did not. did he, did he deliver on health care reform? no, he did not. tax cuts. no, he did not. uh and uh, drew him from

a foreign policy perspective. i believe that he was really good for word in order to promote a meal liberal agenda that seemed accessible or acceptable because it was an african american that was promoting. now i think foot 4 worth is, is the key phrase here. let's, let's talk about the personalities. why being put forward in this campaign. and normally there is still a race between the republicans and the democrats, even though they republican not many is that the longer has with some establishment of his party, while the democratic candidate didn't seem to exide the establishment of her body only a few months ago is it now a contest of personalities, of agendas, lesser evils, or perhaps something else is a combination of personality. and there's also the argument, particularly from the left, that it's the lesser of 2 evils. there are many, uh,

uh, uh, hair supporters. that will make the point. anybody but trump and, and so that is a montrose, a very strong roger from the left. even as you try to engage in debate about the lack of policy articulation by vice president harris. people will not and not, and then they'll smile and say, yeah, but she's not donald trump. so i believe it's a matter of, of, of personality versus a personality and the lesser of 2 evils. there is very, very, very little uh, policy being articulated. yeah. i agree with the, the lesser of the 2 evils tactic. and i think it was very vividly demonstrated in the latest debate in which the candidates spent more effort disparaging the opponent or describing how they would save the country or from an impending disaster than putting forth

a novel or in some way. positive agenda. does the american system, the wave structure it does have still allow for january and grassroots driven change? i'm going to differentiate between the way it's structured versus the way it's financed. because i don't believe that the structure, even though it is a, it is a do obviously, uh, that still could allow for substantive debate on serious dish, serious issues that are not only impacting the united states domestically, but also, or having a dramatic impact on foreign policy but when you look at how the campaigns are financed, and in the fact that the military industrial complex or, or the, the mickey met, um, and uh, as ray mcgovern refers to it is funding both sides of the argument. that's one

of the reasons why you have very, very little debate. and here's a quick example in, in uh, uh, probably april of this year. just in the new york times. there was an article by a peck saying that they were gonna spend $100000000.00 to earn seat as many progressive democrats as they could get their hands on. but then it all had to do with their perception of how these individuals felt about policy as it relates to occupied palestine. so, so here you have democrats that are afraid to challenge genocide simply because of how much money is being dumped into their campaigns, into their coffers into their pockets by an outside entity such as a pat about mr. leona, you wrote recently that it's imperative that the democratic party not only change

the messenger, but also change the message and the paris is wrong for power is based on the policy rather than the fear of and now the terms of presidency. but isn't the problem with the democrats that they don't actually want the system to change? they want to keep in the latest hold the power under the slogans of democracy. is it really so much about the message or the messenger as opposed to what's done with them after the war? it's counted. the point you're making is validation of the point that i just made there funded by the same interests. i remember back in 2020, i think his name is james calhoun, when he was a ceo of boeing and he was asked during the biden trump campaign, which candidate did boeing, preferred by new truck. and james calhoun said,

doesn't matter to boeing because both candidates understand what boeing does, both candidates understand the nature of the need, the boeing fills, and they're going to do just fine. so what he was saying was, we know that boeing makes uh, aircraft, uh, uh, parts and, and, and, and fighter planes along with lockheed martin any others. and so he's in the york basically what i took away from that was the year is going to continue. they're still going to get paid. it doesn't matter who's in the white house so. so that's the point about it's a matter of funding that the system yes, needs to be changed. but with in the established system, there could be space. if a candidate had got to stand up and champion the the, the proper issues. unfortunately, there is the financing that is um, that is corrupting the system. well, uh, the way i see both candidates right now,

i champing sound, i champing some issues. for example, donald trump is speaking about with immigration and uh, he may be very unorthodox in the way he conducts his argument, but still, i mean, he seems to be junior on a, a police standing out for the thing that he believes. now, campbell or harris. i think she's a little bit artificial, but that again, taking from the latest debate when she spoke on women's issues, i thought she was sincere. so they, they seem to bring some genuine concerns to the table. the account of accused them of insincerity completely and he had the it seems that the jan approach is fading away once the ballad, the ballad stations, i closed. why is that? but there's a difference between articulating issues and articulating policy. and so in, in the immigration issue is a perfect example. building a wall. remember donald trump told us, we're going to build

a wall and mexico is going to fund it. well, where's the way? and where's the, where's the pay? so it's where it hasn't found its way into american accounts. and when you talk about immigration, it's not a matter of just looking at the number of people that are at the bigger. you have to ask yourself, why are they there? and the people are at the bitter because american foreign policy towards guatemala, american foreign policy towards mexico. american foreign policy towards columbia towards haiti has decimated the economies in these countries. or seeing those people to leave their homes and come to the united states. quick example. shaquita brands, the banana company, was just convicted of sponsoring dest squads in columbia. and

now it is, it was having, in the midst came out in a, in a federal court in florida. i haven't heard donald trump talk about that. i ever heard carmella harris talk about that probably harris can ring her hands and get all disgusted and frustrated and flustered because donald trump is making racist tropes and diet, drives about patients eating animals in springfield, ohio, as she should because that's just races, deplorable and disgusting. but then why is she backing the united states policy towards rewriting haley you're paying? can you to do it? that's incredibly hypocritical and incredibly inconsistent. so you can talk about, oh, it's the atrocious. the donald trump is talking these races, tropes about haitians, which it is true, the big. why are the haitians in springfield, ohio, in the 1st place, is because she goes to cara. com, trying to convince the caribbean nations to be the black face on american foreign

policy. and imperialism as they try to rehabilitate but democratic party for a very long time. wanted to have anybody on the ticket but straight wide man in the these days they seem to have the person who takes all the seemingly takes all the diversity boxes. why do you think, kind of a harris's reception, both within the part is establishment and seemingly according to the polls within the larger base is not so and so usually asked, inducing people, perhaps a suspecting that having a particular particularly colored space is not enough to turn around the country. well, it never has been and it never will be because it is not about the politics of phenotype . it's about the politics of policy. and so when we were heading into the electoral season, say, starting in june, jo body who was still on the ticket and there were a lot of people in this country. if you go back and look at the primaries in

michigan and look at the primaries in wisconsin in minnesota, you had a, an unprecedented number of de haters. people that were registered by voting as uncommitted because they didn't want either of the candidates. and so when joe biden withdrew from the election, you that now provided some space for another democrat to fill the void. but when, but a lot of people, a didn't like the fact that she was anointed instead of like there was no primary process for promoting carmella harris to that position. then you get to the convention, the democrats convention, which i attended. no discussion of policy. and you had a lot of people that were protesting, the guys are policy that their protest fell upon deaf ears. uh huh. so you still have a number of people within the body politic that board liking what they're hearing

because they're not hearing anything other than blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. ok, well mr. lee only we have our own process here. um that process includes taking a very short break. we'll be back in just a few moments, states you and the other many places in the world where you can stay on the divide between the 2 oceans and the you might not think kids. what does this hay in which is northern are found guest vision and the can also the national park. and today's, we know the stuff was i'm taking a deep side interest of interest because of the,

the welcome back to wells appointments with wilmer lee on an american political scientist. so we own, just before the break, we started discussing the particulars of a 2024 campaign and how a color, gender, or any other superficial characteristic shouldn't matter as much as a you know, substantive policy discussion. and um, yeah, i think be judging from what i read in the american media, the democratic establishment, the democratic party is still counting on the black vote. as a one of the main support groups. do you think they will gather this year? yes, the they'll, they will, they will, will they, will they get it to the degree that it's needed to be the mag of bass?

i'm not sure, but i do know that there, because if we're still with 40 some odd days away from the election and a lot of things going to happen between now and the 5th of november. but as i look at the numbers now, and as i listen to a lot of the, the dialogue and the discussion within the african american community. yes. uh, uh, once again, the african american community will turn out and support the candidate. and the real issue that um, john jeter, a brand journalist, wrote up as a piece out called uh, how the dems use performative blackness, uh, to appeal to the african american community. that's not the exact title that's close enough. and then his point is, once again, the democrats are turning to the black community, begging cook cajoling. we need you, we need, you, we, we have to,

to feed donald trump, but they're not offering any substantive policy to encourage us to support them. it's a matter of the vice president went to a historically black college. she is the and member of the alpha kappa alpha. so we already incorporated history. dance is pretty well that's, that's pretty much what was you know, um you also wrote the brilliant piece i saw on the analysis of the 2016 campaign and why hillary clinton last to donald trump at that time. i think you also made a bet in that piece of very point in terms of ration countering the mainstream framing that clinton apparently lost because they black voters didn't turn out in large numbers. and the reason the, the turn out was the law was because of a, supposedly post, a bama epa see what's, what's your issue with this kind of

a framing that there's room and there is mass supported by the data. and that it fails to take into account. the 1st important fact in that is hillary clinton read a lousy co pay. she didn't care. but for example, she didn't campaign in michigan, democrats camp when the white house, you know, for those that don't know is not only a matter of the popular vote, they have to go through what's called the electoral college. and you have to get 270 votes in the electoral college in order to become president, a democrat cannot get to 270 without michigan. she didn't campaign in michigan, she took michigan for granted. and she waited till the very end of the campaign to campaign in pennsylvania. a. she ran a lousy campaign start there before you didn't turn in,

try to blame. african americans for not turning out. and by the way, they started, the democrats started also making that same argument in august about the about the about 2024 blaming black men, a black and white, a black man, not like common light harris, no data to support the narrative, but they just were preparing the country and case vice president here is lose, is there preparing the country to make the same on the same argument. again, african americans are disillusioned to african americans and are lazy, they're, they're apathetic, and they didn't turn out. what are you giving the community to vote for others van? she's not donald trump. i want

a quote here here because he rolled that african americans are as political as the rest of the country. and they are a real and substantive political interest. that's motivated. the community, it's almost like saying i work in the american a people to me, you know, isn't that the presumption of the black vote racist that it's core? there's no question but, but unfortunately there are too many african americans that aren't demanding anything of the candidate. so the reason they ask in american community create part of this problem for ourselves, because we go along with the dominant narrative, we're not demanding that they passed the, the, the, another voting rights act. we're not demanding that they pass the john lewis a policing act. we're not demanding that comma le harris address. uh, uh, uh,

health disparities in wealth disparities in education disparities. we're not making any demands on her. so then when she gets elected, or if she gets elected and then doesn't deliver, and she will give the same answer, the president, the president obama gave when he was asked, why did you do more for the black community? the answer she gave you all didn't demand anything about. let me ask you about the, the republicans too, because according to gallup more american voters now identify when they do a p, as the part of that is better equipped to address the most important, the most pressing american problems like economy, immigration, government, inflation. but it is politically, are the parties know what the unified either on the, i wonder if you take these numbers as um, as an expression of genuine genuine supports when the republicans, or is it the up. and now that another example of the lesser of the 2 evils that

they're sort of supporting what they have a for the like, what if anything better? well, i think it did really, i think has more to do with the narratives that are being presented in supported by mainstream american media because they the, the, the washington post the new york times m. s. nbc, cnn, they are very, very selective in the data and the numbers that they present in order to support a particular narrative. and from what i have been reading from those periodicals and what i have been listening to from those television programs, they have already made the determination that they are no longer going to be journalists. they're going to be scribes for the elite. and so they're already basically laying the precedent or predicate that donald trump shouldn't be re elected in carmel. a hair is, is the next best thing was lice,

cheese. and and so it's hard for me to trust the, the polling data because the information that those that are being polled is skewed dramatically in trumps 1st around for office. and this is my personal opinion. let me know if you disagree. i think it was characterized by so much in or, or internal sob, latasha, in part because he didn't have the republican establishment behind him. do you think this time around? if he manages to secure the wide, how do you think the act on the republican establishment would be any better? do you think they would value this opportunity as their own when or when they seed as yes, trump got into their office again? we have to wait and see for another 4 years. i think when you talk about republican establishment, if you're talking about the mitch mcconnell, so the world and the, and the dick cheney's of the world, they, i believe, are dreadfully fearful of the,

of donald trump being re elected tens. dick cheney of, uh, supporting com la harris i, i, i for as much as he loves to clamor in, in, in run around uh, behind donald trump, lindsey graham, i said, is dreadfully afraid of donald trump because the elite bully the old guard. see this as the last the last ditch effort to save the party that, that they have known and loved. they see a, i think they fundamental shift with this mag of movement that they can not control . even though they allowed it to develop, you can go all the way back to the tea party. and tom tancredo back in 2006, 2007. donald trump is an outgrowth of that keys. the frankenstein monster that they allowed to develop with through the tea party and

tom tancredo, we want our country back in all those races. uh uh, troops, they eugenics troops that, that they, that they factored in into the politics. and they see this as a last ditch effort to get because now they see the, the frankenstein monster is ravaging the village. mr. leo, i'm here here mentioned the moment the go on your friend mentioned up in your articles. that's voters to me to articulate the vision. and be committed to holding elective petitions accountable for delivering and not delivering practical change. and that's a very tricky issue. because again, in my view, the american system is structured in a way that incentivizes both exorbitant unrealistic promises and very active non doing. just how can voters hold the political powers, not just the political personalities, but political powers accountable for the actions and for the inaction. well,

the 1st thing is it starts at the grassroots level, and i truly believe that all politics is local. so it's a matter of control in your city councils, controlling your school boards, even even controlling your, your neighborhood, watch committees, and uh, starting your politics there. and working your way up through the system so that those at the top understand that those at the bottom are paying attention. and by putting your money where your mouth is by funding candidates, progressive candidates that, that truly believe we need to get out of ukraine. that we can't fund genocide in gaza, that we should not be starting a fight with china over tie one. you've gotta be putting your money where your mountains are, attending political rallies, screaming and yelling. when the com

a la harris is come out and say, israel has the right to defend itself, even though we know it, but based on international law that's just flat out when. but we can't just go alone to get along and we cannot just sit idly by and say, well, we can't make waves. now we have to be quiet. we'll deal with these real issues later. no, the later is now. well, i think this is actually one of the best aspects of the american system, this grassroots organization. i'm missing many countries, including my by the way, i taking example in that because this is actually be the only 2 way of building a community in which you belong. and where you can actually affect change. so thank you for adding these discussion on that somewhat inspiring note. i really appreciate that. my pleasure. thank you for the invitation. call me anytime. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to see her again on wells at part

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or be just to the side. so the car for the next, you know, worry to read. you have most of the sheet here, mr. nation. he just said, i've seems to use this when she comparison to present or for the short term is the great news for interest on the other question. as far as conclusion for goes one. so you said, or you want to you for your, for the move from here you can go to, i'm so afraid the pro bowls genetics generally what, what she just gave me is the furthest was due to the can you just set up the privilege? so anything that that is going to be at the tech privilege.