since it's was on multiple friends across the region. well thanks very much for joining us here for the weekly sunday program and my colleague bobby, at the top of the hour he will be here at the desk for the meantime from me and the entire team to national news team here. the odd. so you've mothership, thanks for sharing your sunday with us, the the hello and welcome to world the pipe. alexis the talk quote, french politician diplomatic, best known for his war of democracy in america. one to centuries ago about how a dynamic ourselves power and democratic system can decay and become the total

opposite of its founding values with miles despotism and the appearance of choice. replacing individual fraud and authentic library teams. so he sat, the great piece of america lies in not being more enlightened than any other nation, but in her ability to repair her faults. does this still hold true to date or could discuss that? i'm now doing by richard sacrament, professor emeritus of the russian and european politics and the university of counts, the furthest outlines of great, you see your again, thank you very much for your time. my pleasure. thank you. now, um, 1st i want to ask you, what was your initial reaction when you woke up on november 6th. i learned that america has an old new president who was mixed feelings, but they meet with one was about opinion polls because just 2 days ago before the election, that'd been in the opinion polls in iowa. we showed cumberland hires are putting

ahead by few percent. so i was speaking to the media and others and suggesting well as too close to cool. and of course, we now know that by an over what well as well, the 5000000 and votes and the popular ballot and in the electoral college to him because one overwhelmingly, which means his election is the judgment, cannot be contested. i know that talk of civil war and discord, of course it will be here, would be easy, but nevertheless, he's quite clearly the window. so that was the 1st and the 2nd feelings that it's over and done to them is that to him is a mix. totally familiar. then in 2016 when he was 1st elected, if you remember, he was as his election to the whole campaign was bound up with their yesterday delegations, the charge of the accusation of swords that gosh, identified that they've got no tongue. they own the media. but stoning the stuff from the democratic national committee and so on, there were also sanctions introduced against various russian individuals because of

that to meet you having been pulled back, it was restored of with the slide to wherever we are today. when obama expelled 35 regression diplomats in december 2016 and indeed the whole attack on michael flint who was terms 1st national security advisor, which, which in a sense, hobbled a whole 1st to impediment discussion because he said no, it makes sense to get to him with russia and it does so as mayflower speech. oh yeah, that yeah. so. so finally, just to say that this time to him to will be different from to him when he's learn to few lessons. how different we don't know he's come to say when up to say who is up, who is appointments are going to be? well before discussing that, i want to ask uh, another personal question. i wonder if you felt vindicated by the choice of the american people because what it endorses in part is um, the ability to go against this censuring politically correct. consensus which you

also did over the last couple of years when you continued engaging with russia and its political science circles despite all the pressure of the home. yeah, no, you're absolutely right to that to in the sense that to 1st the fact that the 1000000 people stood up as it was against the mainstream media against all of that violence cope again to what people say the military industrial media think time complex. and they spoke and they say we're also some innovation, i think, identity, let me try and law enforcement then by police play, have a go and get very still despite you know, maybe trump is a flawed vessel full for protests. yet he was the only one on offer, and they have jo stein is a 3rd candidate, but come with the highest. of course, i'm going to give her credit. she had 107 days in which to make a campaign, but she, in those 107 days, you to cut the gift card due for i'll call you urgent commitment. but of course she made one mistake off to another and started to team. so, and the fact that to,

you know, people didn't want to feel good about identity politics. they didn't want to vote negatively in her campaign, was all the time that bad to him could be they wanted something more positive and to him. target dog screen of offered something different. well, um, i think we can argue whether, you know, positive is the right term. i, for a couple of freshmen to experts say that companies as shallow and primitive as his opponents are complicated, 1 may say, confused on that there is a large constituency in america that is for cheap and perhaps even afraid of this new notion of progress, especially when it moves into the realm of gender roles and family structure because those people may be afraid or from you know, the whole notion of humanity being sort of uh, questioned or changed. uh, do you agree with that that the, there was an existential set of fat. no different the selections as well. there

certainly is. this was every said, one of the most consequential elections in the united states for, for decades. and it was, i know i quite understand the concerns, for example, women's going to go back to rights and so on. of the question of abortion temp, of course, towards the end tates shifted it and said it's up to the states and the number of states by the way, in the selection as well post measures which are protected. so in a sense that seems to be sensible to leave it to the states. of course, when couldn't complain about the bye, didn't know you about the i mean stations for not having put into law. what was it versus wait? each supreme court judgement quotes should not make the law they have had to interpret and to apply the law, it's up to the parliament or congress only about abortion. it's about all those experimentation with the genders and to you as they're in transgender ism and family structures as well. and i think there has been some reckoning in the new york times and the cnn. i have seen some article suggesting that you know,

those people and those motors who have these objectionable views, they have to be taken seriously. how do you think the liberal circles, the liberal camp is likely to react to all of that evict terms of victory as a major defeat for that's american style of identity politics. i mean, with the rights themselves. so one thing the way that at becoming the ideal of g in united states is another, and to him 10 isn't quite openly incomplete theater jack said, so of course it's huge upset in those who pushed as well as a secretary and issues west whom elevated or shifted the terms of the debate to fundamental questions of working, still working standards. and so one concept is of in to the working class. but he did you guys questions about the industrialization about, you know, maybe cuz economy and i'm doing the guest. so fundamental questions of getting back to your office and you know, who you, who you, on what you should be also uh,

i think i would argue with you here because i agree that there's certain pragmatic concerns there as well. but i think one of the central lines of division and the selections was the question of freedom of what freedom really ease, whether it is all sorts of public and sometimes questionable experimentation with the human form or whether it's an ability to express your dislike or disapprove of that, i wonder if you agree with that. the americans were also choosing between various versions or various, this ignition. so what freedom really mean? it's absolutely, it was about terms of the debate and how you should debate these issues. because what, unfortunately, the democratic establishment and some of it was closing down debate. it was, it wasn't, i'm, we're having an open discussion. it was condemning the individuals and using all sorts of censorship. we sent it to, to files and own international issues as well. so the, the, the sphere of discussion and debate and dialogue had narrowed. now it looks like

a jump was age, stood up for precisely unorthodox opinions. and for an outs isn't. he's obviously a fully an insider yet to present himself as an outside. but by doing so, he opens up exactly as you say, the public's fed to a wide range of opinions. i don't know about you, but for me personally, i think my nervous system doesn't always handle well and watching the american contain doesn't matter whether it's a republican or democrat, because the very high p h. i mean, the, the intensity of emotion is not just the emotions themselves. they're sometimes too much, but the intensity, everything is the highest possible volume. i wonder if it's really possible to, to govern people after you set out a subject them down to that kind of a discourse. i mean, how can you just course and it didn't discuss anything of such a high volume. absolutely. as i said, the united states has become polarized and that there's been, this was called,

salting his. that has become course, i wonder if they're deliberately driving the people in to him outside courses. because i mean, when you look, or even a trunk riley's or how you can load harris's around these people do not have a calm face has, i mean they're all on edge. yeah. no, you have to guide them or you can style of politics is a bit rough and it's a bit emotional for us and this yes, i know, and the fact that it goes on for so long as well. meetings that a sort of a keep raising the picture to get attention from the bonus to it looks like chronic be to see all post traumatic stress disorder. people always seem to find a flight flow. yeah. so they ever get to the point where they can come down and use that. yeah, so sort of fine print copies. i started this, this little vision which i've now been pushing forwards, putting forward as an idea. it is that the united states and the west as a, as a model of life has presented itself as hyper normal. it's so hoping normally anything that challenges that countries outside and of course versus from within,

are considered not only abnormal, but evil, and to be condemned. and you have so the guy and so the pitch goes higher and higher, but we'd have to say that of this clear, open victory of to him. now, actually, i think going to put the temperature down. i know there's a lot of talk of the existence emerging and so on, but yet they kind of going to do anything because quite clearly the people have spoken and do that x rays, who say as, as alex, as the cultural side is that the americans, the system itself has this ability to your generate itself. i am very glad about that. what i mean as we've been talking to lots of these about, i'm eating and so on. and i've been doing all of the time that what we're talking about is a post american world, nothing n t american world. what we want to do now is to normalize and that you can publish excel trumps 1st presidency, was characterized by a lot of internal sub baton rouge in part due to him not being fully supported by the establishment of the republican party. but this time decision is different,

different they, republicans have both the control of the, the executive and the legislation. branches. do you think the provides an opportunity for the republican party to do something more substantial and easier to do or their type of transformation of u. s. foreign and domestic policy, they opted not very interested in this is, this is the 65000 global question is the, to who he's going to a point to his cabinet. and so at the moment there's normally some type of space speculation about who's going to be there, who's couldn't bintzler until we know one thing so far is that j d events. his vice president is a very important vega. i'm going to, i'll even put my money on him, possibly being a successor. yeah, that's the only one. no, indeed. indeed, i'm not. so moving to get much if i put it back to that now, but the discharge events, but also donald trump junior, who was the one who actually insisted to his thought that there point j defense as opposed to the other ones. a bunch of other candidates,

it would be out and others to be the vice president. so, and that is an ideological that as well. and then the festa, we will be different this time and we will change about your account. and they, he also has the endorsement of a couple of very prominent personalities, including even mosque, a person who built uh, a lot of pretty extraordinary businesses. and as i was going through this interview, i read about the rumors that she may be appointed as the hand of the commissioner in charge of reforming the us government. would you invest your trust in uh, it will not masks ability to do that. i have a numerous to us is ability to do things with you and your form, the us government in a positive sense, because musk and another major influential fe got in this. to him. consternation is peter t o t h. i will be found out by now, and these guys are, keep till even more visa. absolutely. libertarians that means anti government and

to state, let the market do it and how they're going to make this work for normal working across americans. i don't know, but they put their reputation on the line in order to associated themselves with, as you saw the constellation of, of trump. so it looks like they're doing that, not out of their own personal or corporate interest, but because they want to advance the i hold the interest of bad people. i see right? if it has turned into this selection, as shown, it even more into a plutocracy. it really is this sort of the only galks. i mean, the fact that is something that we could do a whole list of very, very welcome or you can shape this selection. but i won't just say that maybe it comes with simply bought, it starts like i'm not going to be quite simple, but certainly that very powerful force. and so you're absolutely right. that was the end in this 1st to him. what did we, does he do tax cuts for the rich? and what did he do for the normal work and people and it's very hard. we forget the big, numerous extent of poverty and the difficulties for normal. but mean what would that

to make it a fast middle class to live today to make ends meet with huge mortgages for externally high gains? prices going up? yeah, they're in your recovery system. i mean, i think is a good. let me just look at the infrastructure. absolutely. so it's, it's a, it's a, they need all of this, but i just didn't because i've been most goose quotes of phenomena. and good thing is, you know, i would go what a story god gives. you want to become something that goes. but he has a numerous ability and so to speak, to these people have a chief, something's not defending them, as all the gods. i'm defending them as onto the nurse with a lot of interesting ideas. and it would be fascinating quote, cuz america is entering into a major experiment absolute and all of us. uh, you know, still camp on popcorn to watch it. absolutely. now uh, refreshing the coca cola always to make the call is really bad and then the rest of so is there is already have access to it. but for the time being, we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just

a few moments extension the the welcome back to ones at portsmouth, richard. so i come up professor and or just of russian and european politics. the university of kemp proposed to suck, but let's talk now about the implications of foreign policy or in the foreign policy around it. even though it's still a pretty early base. uh, we already hearing a lot of statements or seeing some movements coming from different countries. i want to start with is ro where a lot of politicians all of a sudden and now talking about the annexation of the entire west bank. now the

thompson office. and how do you seeing that conflict is likely to evolve? well, it's been pretty bad so fast. and so genocide, joe had so many people called him. it's quite unforgivable of what the by didn't administration date of the last year, allowing a semester of ation, mass killing, and garza. so over $700.00 people killed in westbank since october, some general event, and unquestioned the judge safely and of course, extending the war into lebanon, and using these dreadful tactics, attacking hospitals, schools, united nations buildings and so on. well, you can kind of get worse, and of course it can get worse. and by didn't i thought a bit to him in the last time. his big gamble was on the so called a behind the codes to did sure to dump the palestinians and then to have a, with a game it was sad. you're going to be normally stationed with there's ago united down your family, expiring and so on. so that didn't work,

it provoked this uprising and the world will not accept at this time. so trump may want something or other, and, you know, obviously they, the extremist and these here in the government have these huge ambitions from indeed, from the, from the give it to the scene to make it a single state. but of course that they, they can't do this in isolation because we've got a vast, yes, it's an area where we talk this ducks out. you're going to be caught on united that . so it's a, yeah, it's going to be very important to see how he can bring them on board. and they quite clearly will not abandon the palestinian course today. so it set everything to play for. we just hope that you know that the, tim can i make unpredictability. may book to advantage here is that he may actually then speak to notes and you have insights, stop this mass murder, and stop some of this. ok, i think he's as unpredictable as he's pretty matic and the, as you pointed out,

you know, his friendship with the, with this out is, is not only a plus one and i'm in the, in the, as the lot in the, in the united states. yeah, that's right, there is a material interest there as well. absolutely. and do as you say, to them is uh, is mckenzie list. i said to you is that we told him, hoping that his normalize things internally, but also to normalize america in foreign policy. it's a pragmatic oil and relationship, some sort is bigger than is going on. so in the logic context, he understands that and skin defense component with united value, maybe it's and so on. so many other states as well. now turning to the conflict in ukraine now according to pulse, the majority of americans are roughly 70 percent. so it includes also some democratic rotors as well. they want the leadership of the united states to push your credit towards any goal, shaded peace with russia. what are your bads on how the new administration is going to handle it? but it seems to him, as i said to him, good thing is that you must take his words seriously, but not let's relate and for 24 hours, just

a symbolic way of sense smoke. i'm going to deal with this and he's upset. he got that to allow a girl in the heart to feel with so much stuff in damage and selling his damage, you know, obviously to your thing through i said to yoga up as well and to global piece and development. so yep, i mean was again, uh, if it had been to bind and no kind of behaviors who'd once we'd have continuity, we're going to have a new team. and so they will try to. but what, maybe we don't know oppose our seats fox. but what i will ways are going for, we have to start all negotiation. start with the 1st step at the moment is no steps . so once, if we can actually just start to process. and of course, i think it's important goodman, he was attacked last time for his good you relationship between 213. i think it's an advantage. i think that the 2 can talk, but not the language of ultimatum. so because, you know, there's that famous report allegedly that to him said if, if he also doesn't accept it, then going to ball moscow. i mean, this was the same as uh, put his press secretary, sunday on the day when, when uh,

you know, the last time they observed that when trump moved into the, i'd house, he's the rhetoric. yeah. so essentially just have stuff and the president putting into but medically, but letting me use this opportunity to ask you about the kremlin, because the rest of liter has so far been uh, quite the reserves, the in his reaction to the results of the american election. but clearly lodge meant put in is interested in ending this for me, hopefully on the rush as terms. so do you think he will uh, find this up a change in trunk coming to the white house, attractive enough to perhaps compromise or at least to invest a little bit of trust in the west. again? i think that i mean his position and gosh, as official position is to go back to the it's done bu agreement of march, april 2022, adding new tires for is the rush. i haven't really the car and taking into account changes on the, on the field itself. absolutely. this makes neutrality. no nato membership and

acceptance of the tell your total position. because obviously you can use a major country, a big country, somebody has to govern it. so what, and i also think that the coming position is that this is who has an ocean congress pay little code for the time being to allow the board to start all the trees, fire a permanent to that, to them, and not appear in type assessed. i permanent supplement, that means 3 levels within ukraine itself. and then the european security level, which is absolutely fascinated and then the global level, us a and large china of course in india and the result framework. so, you know, is nested like your gosh and go all of these. and i will say that to them please go to, you know, h t and gazed with china earlier, quite significantly. so and then do so it's, i have a feeling that there's, let's just put it this way. there's a slightly more chance of movement towards some sort of peace settlement. no. then that would have been, if the alternative had happened about you relative before the whole point of me to what's to prevent more and yet somehow it ended up in the very situation it was

designed to avoid. is there anything and that the new american leadership can do to sort of bring nature back to its initial defense and the conflicts prevention rather than mission creep, orientation. one of the interesting things, like the most interesting thing about the hotel phenomenon, is that it's posted the line to assist by that i mean that we've lived in yoga since 1945 with the united states deeply involved in since 1949 we've nighttime. so, and it's pets, so we could do that. today's provided the marshall plan in the cafeteria, so on. and we want to may not laurie. so with the united states knowing his questioning that, but what we don't want is this constant, if you like, vessel as ation and some people call that. and what i would like to say is this post this post to me, or you can you imagine, which would be, you know, again, some sort of vision from lisbon to vladivostok,

inclusive security or to body. and of course this is going to any shock we have sold the pen union and those who really invested into data. and what does that tell too much like it was an instrument designed for collective defense. it failed of to the end of the 1st coldwell, often 1999 to become a collective security body. i guess a very different thing. collective defense is against someone collective security brings everyone in, i'm pull. russia was left out. there was no place for gotcha. in that's a collective defense system and we are where we are. so we're going to have to go to basic some to i'm going to start to see things, how many devices, smart man, i like face change of his behaviors, but to have them. and we have a way of expressing 110 defense, but yes, but it, you know, he's, it, he's actually smart than what was just a tiny point on in this selection. it was very interesting that he was sometimes this is what made him popular. so k as much, i say sometimes it's self reflective and you know, even, you know, he gave one of the speeches of his who wrote this nonsense for me. it's guessing,

unless he makes the car part of the narcissistic as he appears he also appears human. yes. exactly, it's all he's as all of them, even some awareness of his fault says that he does human quite welcome. so since you mentioned here of in the last couple of hours, we also learned that the ruling coalition in germany fell apart with the chancellor shoulds firing his finance minister, accusing him of deep tub advertising and betraying the interest of the nation. while the minister accused the chancellor of being unable to offer a viable economic program for joe many of the time of crisis. where do you think terms re election may not your, of, and more precisely joining because this used to be the sort of the main founding stolen or secure it's in your and indeed economic power. how yeah, and of course it's been suffering due industrialization, black of investment, i know really for 20 years, a lack of investment in physical infrastructure, health education,

so on highways. so just as lost its shine. and it's now coming to crunch time. and so there's 2 accusations you've been a both accurate. we're good. he's saying i'd like to change they're using to elections in brandenburg to india and sikes. and they have so not just assume right wing movement, but also their strong, strongly strength, astonishing strength of this left conservative. all right, so the next and so the elect to politics of yoga is also changing. i've a feeling that to them will be a game changer that we're going to see possibly, you know, changes in germany. we're obviously now there's going to be an election next year. and that will obviously change with the new government as clear. and also in feelings. we've got elections coming up in perhaps, and we're getting the pen government finally. initially, maloney will perhaps become more like we're going to spend in bologna. nothing regarding prospective but suggest challenging that atlantis says that nato, that militaristic block. so we may say that so suddenly,

all the pieces in movement, again, how they collect, how they gauge themselves. well, who can so, but it's actually going to be, i think, an important time for yoga up to look at itself and decide what sort of you're up to we want. well, actually you are letting me into my guess final question i mentioned alex is the talk, will it in my introduction and apart from demo present america, he also penned the very interesting work self interest. well, in the student, i think it's a very time least to a very tunnel it's for cheese and how to balance individual freedoms with the social interest or the, the values of society as a whole. and i wonder if you think form or process of societies like germany or perhaps some others can still come to a different understanding of their own self interest. something that you know serves them. but also, you know, it doesn't contradict the, the name totally ties. let's say you say this is one of the things which if we go

to talk about the normalization of international politics, that to move back to the principal of solving international you're solving and state your govern in your own interests. but the also introduction this do you work with us for common issues, but what's we've seen in the latest years is this sort of a liberal internationalism, which has undermine the ability for states to shape them destined as is you say, in traditions listing and hungry. the way this is working out in poland in different ways in slovakia and so many countries want to say no, no, we want to be part of a larger community, but at the same time we don't want to give up our own individuality. so i think that to him, selection has yet, and as a sign of as moving into a post liberal society, well, um, or if it's a cycle, i hope you're right. but to i guess we will explore that in our next interview, a couple of years from now. thank you very much for being with us today though. my pleasure. thank you. i'm thank you for watching. i hope to see her again. on the 12th of part, the or

the other many places in the world where you can say you're on the divide between the 2 oceans and the you might not think kids. one of them is hey, english is northern, are found guest vision in the king or is that us national park? and today's, we know the was a stuff was taking a deep side into some beach because the the,

the was actively contributing to strengthening security on trees. wash it is a longstanding or any friend of ours, and all the nation's present here today are fully cognizant of this fact. as the russian advocates summit rocks off, so those are the kind of speak highly a multitude important committees. it comes with security and prosperity off of the times that presidential victory oppressed the lead by the look. all the reasons the higher the last, the media has been busy finding estate. good pricing, the blame on americans themselves. massage need from hispanic man. right. is massage a from black man, we still have an electrician. $70000000.00 plus 7.