as also know how i got them interpreters, disability to ensure that the department some for the department of minute i was and takes their, their team to go on the account without us having experience. and that has to be documented, starting the process on the ground and ensure that to be they have to negotiate. they negotiate with those people. and this, it just from a solution to the, probably the entire mining system in south africa because it's, it's, it's a crisis because there is no progression for people who are close to my and not a, it'd be happy to take their mind. they just leave their mind immediately after they they, they have died when we say the many of us it's a happy with us this friday coming your way. next page lavelle on the cross to obtain some old news updates. make sure you join me again and just the

hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered non theater. lavelle, kennedy trump said he would end the ukraine conflict in 24 hours. 12 days now, president elect time to keep that promise. the problem is washington in moscow, have radically different ideas about peace and security. the cross section ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, caring field called steve in mound jackson. she is a retired us air force, lieutenant colonel, having served at both n s a and the office of the secretary of defense in london. we have in proud he is

a senior british diplomat, an officer of misfits in moscow. how british diplomacy in russia failed and killed . so we crossed the passcode no task. he is an associate professor at t auto university. right. crosstalk roles and effects that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate before we talk about a, a suppose, suppose a trump piece plan, i'd like to get your reaction from all 3 of you about the recent spouse of appointments that trump is going to bring into his administration. karen, i mean i know that, you know, it, could you some people like coke, some people like pepsi, but it's still colla and then that's my feeling here. karen? yeah, it really is. i mean, he's got a mix of neil kinds that we recognize extremely pro israel appointments and then combine with that. he has some of the people like tulsa gabbert, who have been a tremendous are critics of what's been going on for the past couple decades. so we have a mix. okay, and how about you? because, i mean, one could say this is all by design is, but um, they'll be

a lot of in fighting. maybe that's what trump wants. no one will have had gemini, they'll all have to look to him as the mediator. i mean, you've been in a bureaucracies before what you read on this. well, the obvious conclusion of joint is the jump, cetaceans by most of the tools and what's happening in the middle east. and also what's happening in china and taiwan. and that full focus on, on ukraine and support for the boy. for there is going to be on the studies declined much as the site in in is like some campaign. and i'm house go, i mean it's a so it's stress during the campaign and even is victory speech. with that, he's a man that he wants to create peace and wars with this, with this lot coming in here. they don't seem very piece driven to me, pasco, you know, and i agree and tend. is owens one of those famous news anchors in the us. she already put out an emergency message to trumps saying like you are being subverted

by the, the, the less or no neil collins in, in, in the us. and that's what's happening. so instead of having your cons that are focused on the u. s. ukraine war, you have new york homes were focused on eat on and on china. and apparently these are the people that he will a point that they don't know whether he knows about that or not. but it seems that john mir timers, prediction is coming true that the blog always wins out. yes we are. is it, it's, it would seem to be the case here and you can change the president, but the hedge a monic tendencies are almost impossible to reverse. okay. let's talk about peace plans here. karen is all stairs leaks all over the place that are rumors about what a trump may propose. i don't think he has a clue of what he wants to do. so, but there seems to be a lot of people, i'm thinking about this fake telephone call between trump and put and is trying to divert our attention or make us assume about certain pro uh,

dynamics of deal with the there can be no deal if there is no common understanding about security, and that's the crux of the problem here. karen? yeah, that's true. but the common understanding of the ukraine situation, he does have some people in place that get that certainly. i mentioned tulsa gavin, but jamie vance also gets it very well. he's following ukraine, so i understand it's trump delegates to some of these people to push ukraine off of his uh, front burner, which is what he intends to do. then we are going to see compromise. we're going to see cox communications, and it's going to be based on what actually happened. so i'm hopeful in that regard . but as you said, with the term, the neil con attitude towards china. in the middle east, we see this for assistance, but i will say this the d. c establishment is in raged. they are enraged and they are frightened and that is gonna be a good sign it. but i think in the the,

the top. * is it's focusing on a ceasefire. now i could understand what, why the ukrainians would want that they are losing. i could understand how washington feels that way because that will give them a breather. but that a ceasefire simply is not in the cards, but it all of the pungent tree on cable tv is talking about a ceasefire. this is done intentionally. it's trying to determine the, the parameters of what some talks could be, which is a non starter for moscow. in well that's likely has to stop, and tonight is typically what a cx 5 is. but actually what the needs to be is a. and that's what kind of plan for delivery of piece. now let me freaking spoken about getting back to the most 2022 is simple agreement. that seems to be a good place to negotiations stop, but, but as part of that process of, of actually having a piece plan and the fighting does actually need to end. because as you said,

you kind is losing on the battlefield. so i think actually that the 2 on mutually exclusive points and stuff, but also that does need to be a long term plan that needs to be nice. bush's critical national security interests . you know, a final back thing with the whole kind of nature issue is a big goal. and another key area for discussion is what happens with sanctions as a piece plan unfolds. plesco again, when i look at um, um, uh inside or uh, inside baseball form policy, they were actually there all kinds of gravitating to a new minsk agreement, which means one and 2 failed because the western powers failed to fulfill it. russia is not gonna buy immense 3. no, i rush, i shouldn't buy. it means 3. but at the same time, russia still has an interest to find some sort of way out. because the danger right now is that russia might win the war, but lose the piece. i'm not losing the piece,

not losing. what comes next has to be top priority. and unless russia is willing to swallow ukraine home, which would include the entire western part of ukraine, which would be a ploy using the dispute. that would be a really, really difficult thing to, to, to achieve are impossible. so there needs to be a settlement, a piece of paper that is signed by everybody in order to get to the next stage, which implies that they need to be negotiations, which implies that something's got to get from the side of nato, but also from the side of russia, and that's going to be very tough on russia, i believe because they are there is going to be hard bargaining still involved unless you want to go for old out occupation. yeah, i, i hear you. i don't think the incomplete occupation of ukraine has ever been in the cards. i mean, that would be this something untenable. anyway, it would, it wouldn't be

a garden or any benefits for russian in the short or long term. karen, one of the, one of the industries here also is a, can russia trust these to the next administration? i mean, under trump, i mean, the company is a russian agency, the hoax. but i mean, trump was hard to run russia than any other american president domain. where's the trust? and i want to ask in that because he's a former diplomat. go ahead, karen. yeah, there's, well, there's no trust. and the idea of mints is course was really and because the guarantor was germany, which admitted, admitted that this whole thing was a hoax to begin with. so there's no trust. i don't think any nato countries could really be trusted to oversee this. and the truck administration is by, it's very nature, it's kind of reactive, it's kind of a, it's, it's not complete really clear where it's going. it is not necessarily trustworthy in terms of the so who is going to help bring these place. these 2 countries together bring, you know,

your crane and rush it together and the other thing is having to deal with, you know, for a long time, zalinski said i will not deal with good. now we'll never deal with boot. and, and now zaleski isn't even a legitimate leader anymore. you know, he's a effective dictator and no country can effectively negotiate with that guy because he is, he doesn't have legitimacy, legal legitimacy as a, a, as a, as a leader. so we've been problem is that i think one of the things they'll look at is, um, will zelinski be replaced with someone that can trust some agency and can come to some sort of settlement? same question to you. and i mean the level of trust that is the, that's really the 1st step to the 1st hurdle as it were here. so i can tell you that the, that level of pressure from here, looking at the west, it's 0. i mean, you, you got to make b a d o, you've got it, you've got, you guys have to come up with something that can be credible because your, your, your, your record is deplorable. and that's subjectively true. it's just not my opinion

go ahead in, you know, i agree and i see back in 24 team. so things got very, very by the contents in front of mind. even of us in presidential administration. she told me that actually all the trust a gone and it will take a decade to restore trust. and that was in 2014. so the my site and it'll take, it's kind of really but still addressed on both sides and take it on the bus inside the, trusting us and vice versa. that will be right on time coming chinese post the mole . but we still have to deal with each other in the here. and now if i came by briefly on the ministry agreements, i slide a kind of a take a different view from count haven't being a place in personal to low. so i think he's a little time on risk minutes to agreement for the pot because the americans and the british didn't want to work. and actually that they really kind of conspire to kind of put sanctions in place and make minsk supported to the sections policy effectively making sanctions against which depended in the us government was never invested in misconduct. was invested in showing that means, you know, to failed,

and that's indeed what happens. i think, well, you know that, that voice maternity different now is it, if the us administration gets find some sort of need piece plan that will be going to a level of investments in it when it comes to actual trust? yes, you like the relationship between washington us collapsed during the previous trump administration. you know, weapon supplies to ukraine, undermining the notice came to pipeline. that sort of things that some of talked about on the campaign trail. but that as long as you down to the dynamics on the hill in dc itself, actually trump did have a pool with peyton evens, right? one of these difficult times met and spoke with peyton. and there was a level of a pool and trust with this multi between the 2 of them, which means that they can actually trade and discuss and come to the right now. and i'll stay with them before we go to the break here. i mean, neck and diplomacy was criminalized under bite and how do we get away from that as

well? yeah, i you 100 percent agree with you. i mean, by never spoke to prison once you input from the point of the little salting. i see the pregnancy is basically criminalized on the, on the case side as well. that has been for over that. hey, yeah, but actually will people advice and trump the site and use that? you know, we have to engage. we have to told new trump to say he has google extremely pretty well. we'll see. we'll see every charge. so let's say, alright, i have to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine, stay with the the

says for war to united states as foster extremist and t russian prejudices and hatreds among the ukrainian d. s. for 10, at least in canada, united states and countries in eastern europe, probably everywhere in the world. it doesn't matter what these groups say or do it will support them if it is, the groups are causing hatred and chaos within the target country. so it might done and they choose, but is it comes say download started,

you will also squares on some of the way. so 1st these up and it was so easy, just 54 minus the 1000000 other ca uses anyone at anything if there's a religion the the,

the welcome back across stock were all things are considered on peter level to remind you were discussing. you create the ok, let's go back to pass code kyoto. one of the things that worries me in this interim period here and obviously impacts of being what's going on and ukraine, but also in the greater middle lease the issue of escalation. so i've asked around, it seems to be a split decision. i tend to think that the bind me ministration will escalate before trump could come in to de escalate. if that is, if that is his plan here. but escalation can create political facts on the ground that the next administration just has to inherit. and, and i think we saw how obama tripped up trump when he was coming into office in 2017. i don't know why uh, bite. and wouldn't want to trump up a trip up trump, um,

before january go ahead. pasco, i'm a little bit less worried about that one, because by now it seems as if, though, the pentagon puts a hard stop on the idea of strikes a inside of 3 people, the 2022 russian territory. and that it just depends, have gotten that actually calls the shots on these decisions damage. that's got plastic. oh is that apply to the british and the french and the other is a nato. i, i and i see that this is an option that could happen, but i honestly think that if the american say don't do it, they won't because they are on the shore. they are on the lease. so, and it's only 2 months from now, even the germans will have like these, these elections coming up and mr. merits, who might call me, and he even need for his closest date to do anything is like february or march. i

think it's too little time to do anything that's stupid, although maybe i'm on the rest of the view. definitely under estimated definitely i think so. who knows? maybe we'll have a november surprise or a december just surprise to and i have an idea. and you know, cuz i, i obviously want this conflict and because it's conflict never should have started in the 1st place. it were so many ways to avoid it. and i want to ask all 3 of you this. what about another helsinki? 2 point. oh. and then pan european security approach. and so, and so instead of just focusing on ukraine, you focus on the entire picture. and by doing that, you can solve that problem bits in the center of it all. i know what sam dishes, if i told donald trump this, he probably would go for it because he get a nobel prize. but this is the only way for because this is the only way to where everybody gets the terms and conditions of security. everybody lines that up,

the rest of it can a follow go ahead parent. yeah, i mean that's a great idea. that is a wonderful idea. but the problem we have is nato. well, that's really about, that's their problem. ok. my opinion go ahead. yeah. it's um, no it's, it's a good idea, but when you mentioned nobel prizes you have to remember obama also got one. well that's so that's why trump ones one. okay. oh good point. good point. well in let me throw that to you. i mean, your, your experience diplomat, i mean is it, that's, it's a bulls idea. um, a lot of moving pieces here, but the goal was very specific. security for everyone. and i think that's the best way to approach this. go ahead in. yeah, and because the problem is that the both the opinion and the nights, a creepy of deposit from that kind of wider multilateralism actually. and you see

what's happening in ukraine. brutal sit in the middle east is representative of a type of diplomacy and phone policy, which was impossible to pick sides and the conflict between one side and the other side by is completely incompatible with some a wide and multinational a page with the security of epi, studies individual and so unless you can kind of break that central kind of by lateralism to lateralism, which kind of dominates the way nice and way you kind of phone policy is that you wouldn't be able to kind of get to that point. and in any case, you know, that is being overtaken by what's happening to, for example, the bricks, meaning where they are actually leading that, that to bite, you know, bone. uh, you know, security can a bit large in the absence of engagement with some pounds. well, pasco, again, helsinki to fully know what's wrong with that idea. i karen's absolutely iraq is the nato wouldn't like it. but because of nato, we have this conflict in ukraine and,

and so that has to be dealt with here. but if you are approaching the bigger picture may be the way forward in a face saving for everyone involved. absolutely, i mean, you're totally right and he'll say get 2 point. oh is exactly what we need. but the, the side matter of the fact is that the people in charge at the moment that leads into european capitals and in washington don't want that. i'm not sure about the washington anymore because the change might actually, trump in bands might want to go for that, but i'm not sure the blog does. the, the, the thing is that a neutral you pray would have been to help. thank you to point out the thing is that in december 2021 rush, i asked for help. thank you. 2 point oh with it's draft 3 d studies send over. it ross has asked time and again to create a call, a common security structure and time and again was rebuffed and it is, it's really, really horrible. but if you look at it into terms of the cold war, we always had ups and downs where people were like more willing to actually do

common, mutually beneficial agreements and less times. and right now we're in the time where they are less likely to do that. because right now the europeans are not able to think off a mutually beneficial solution. they think that anything that is good for russia is necessarily bad for us and anything good for us. and that must be bad for us that they are for there is no common ground. it is, that's stupid. but unfortunately, we're in that kind of mindset. unless we get out of that mindset, there's not going to be a win win solution which we need which helsinki to, but no one cared. the indivisibility of security was a term that was used quite often during the cold war. that was the very basis of the helsinki process. i can remember, well, after the, after the special military operation started a rush, it was a good, it's a guy talking about the individual ability and security and the us state department acted like it and never heard the term. they probably had the yeah. are we haven't

had a diplomat in the, in the american government for some time, then i guess we won't have one for a while to get going. yeah, no, i mean uh if were, if it's true that the putting rubio and as the secretary state, i don't know if that's true or not, but yeah that, that means that it won't go back to trump is trump one, something he'll, he'll try to negotiate it if it's not clear what truck really, you know, trump thinks in the same terms that we're talking about today. but another issue you have to look at is the money. you know, ukraine has been a dump for money, and many people have been profiting from this for people in this, in, you know, us, but also your pin comp, companies and other, other states that are close by. and um, you know, they have uh uh that money to drying up the words ending, there's not enough ukrainians left to die. we've pretty much this project has destroyed the people of ukraine. so the investment potential is really drying up

rapidly. and the money people who really drive both the neo kinds and the other, the rest of government, which i'm not sure how much is left after the new kinds. but whatever we have this government's driven by money, it's driven by the big investors. and what they hope to get from something so that they are going to, they're going to be a factor here that we're not talking about, which is going to accelerate the decision to stop this thing. so there's no financial benefit to continuing it. and that, that sounds very cold because there's all the dead people, all the destruction of the environment. but just the terrible yes, the rescue problem, everything. all of this driven by the money people in many ways. well, you know, let me go to in here. i mean, is a war is awful, obviously here, but what has been done to ukraine is a crime because this shouldn't have happened this. there were ways around this. ok

. this was a complex that was wanted by washington. i would say by london as well. because of their misperceptions of brushes, abilities and whatnot here. but even as they think about any kind of a piece plan, ukraine doesn't really play a big role in it. and that's again, it's really quite pathetic. go ahead in yeah, the crate is becoming a hold of that kind of the state is become must be populated, overburdened with huge amounts of debt despite the kind of buildings and so, so you can create, you know, from the west and it's becoming like an empty dysfunctional shell in the filed state as well as the west and pascal and you know, as normal they increase in the focus on the kind of domestic concerns. it has in fact does have options. so, you know, the needs of people, bailey, to have suffered from this. all you training people in the big in the big scheme of things and, and if you really care about the cranes fee due to a choices,

then the best way to do that will be to end the will. it's most trump this point to do well, a pasco, considering the potential, we don't, you know, none of these people have power now, but the names that are being bandied about the will you think that there will be a big struggle within the trump administration and how to move forward or maybe, you know, trump says he has an idea, it was a good campaign slogan as policy. now it, you know, it's brunch time here. but i mean, with the collective wisdom, if these people have any wisdom at all, is that what he's going to rely upon? and this very good people are good analysts in this administration. now, i mean, chevy vans has proven time. and again, with his, with his talks and with his book that he actually has some clue of what is going on till c, gabbert and others have done so too. but as in every administration, you're going to have different a variety of opinion. and unfortunately, to right now, what we're seeing is that mr. trump is appointing more and more people,

we know lowering your collins, who we know are a to 0 sum game kind of thinking. and they are, they are unfortunately now probably going to be a majority and they can, they can count on having people in the back who think like them as well in the, uh, in the bureaucracy. and unless that changes, unless the, the, the, the, the reasonable people can override those guys, i see that the current way forward is going to have a harder time of going forward. and maybe going to have a, maybe going to see some change when it comes to ukraine. that's the biggest challenge for change, but not for a year on. it's not for china. this one is going to probably continue that the, the, the titanic is going to continue to drive to work that iceberg when it comes to these 2. which is that karen? and yeah, do you think that this time, next year we'll be talking about a drums piece plan i would like to think that has already

propose, has been implemented and that where is over, you know, it occurs to me to, with the way that trump is putting his appointments forward, the really smart people that he is putting in to the various positions are not niel guns and the really stupid people. and i think i'm being objective here, the stupid people. rubio. okay. not to break of the of some of these others. the guy they're putting in for the d o d, i'm not very experienced, very reactive. not exceptionally bright. so these guys are fodder to be fired like well can, i are way can we can and we can add down this note. i mean, personnel is policy. after all, we'll see how it unfolds here. the good thing is people are talking about ending the war. that's good. okay, i want to thank my guess in london, kyoto, and in mount jackson. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, the next time remember, prospect, the,

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