come out and be a wasted, a face the was which is this design mazama as our tool minors are trapped underground because they fear arrest. but after days, without access to basic necessities like water, food, and medication, many are no longer able to reach the surface on their own. this humanitarian crisis demands immediate attention. you have the police and prisons, civil rights union in the northwest, sort of including the same sentiment as the minister and the presidency. because they say that they uphold humane working conditions was that african police members? the alarming increase in illegal mining operations has led to violent crime, environmental degradation, and economic instability, leaving communities vulnerable and law enforcement resources stretch, then a legal mining activities are often linked with criminal syndicates that endanger the lives of residents. damage critical infrastructure, and m. p local economic growth. of course, there's been a huge debate raging across the country, often administer statements,

who have some political thoughts for him to see in the handling off the issue of trapped illegal. mine is a democratic alliances and you called me freedom fighters, have been one of those saying the current approach, next humanity and is causing on to suffer. but you would also remember that since the last a rather than the ones off operation, not even face of losing the operation. 142015, i'll solve it, cheese have a wrist at over 10000 illegal. mine is and have sees a significant amount of ions. and valuable windows, so it's a very complex situation. indeed. you'll find more details on this story on sentinel, on our website all saved on com, when he, thanks for joining us here on the, on the international bye for now. the

the the hello and welcome to cross talk. were all things are considered on theater. lavelle, canada, trump said he would end the ukraine conflict in 24 hours. well, he's now president elect time to keep that promise. the problem is washington in moscow, have radically different ideas about peace and security. the cross talking ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, caring field ca, steve in mound jackson. she is a retired us air force. lieutenant colonel, having served at both n, s a and the office of the secretary of defense in london,

we have in proud he is a senior british diplomat, an author of myspace in moscow. how british diplomacy and russian failed and killed him. we crossed the passcode no tests. he is an associate professor at t auto university right, cross talk roles and effects. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate before we talk about a, a suppose, suppose a trump piece plan, i'd like to get your reaction from all 3 of you about the recent spouse of appointments. the trump is going to bring into his administration. karen? i mean, i know that, you know, it, could you some people like coke, some people like pepsi, but it's still colla and then that's my feeling here. karen? yeah, it really is. i mean, he's got a mix of neal cons, that we recognize extremely pro israel appointments and then combine with that. he has some of the uh, people like tulsa gabbert, who have been, uh, tremendous, uh, critics of what's been going on for the past couple decades. so we have

a mix. okay, and how about you? because, i mean, one could say this is all by design. is that um, they'll be a lot of in fighting. maybe that's what trump wants. no one will have had gemini, they'll all have to look to him as the mediator. i mean, you've been in a bureaucracies before what you read on this was the obvious conclusion of joint is that jumps the tensions by much tiny tools and what's happening in the middle east . and also what's happening in china and taiwan and apple focus on, on ukraine and support for the boy for there is going to be on the studies declined much as the site in, in it's like some campaign. and i'm house go, i mean it's a, he's, it's stress during the campaign. and even in his victory speech with that, he's a man that he wants to create peace and wars with this, with this lot coming in here. they don't seem very piece driven to me, pasco know, and i agree i tend is owens one of those famous news anchors into us. she already

put out an emergency message to trump saying like you are being subverted by the the, the less or no. neil collins in, in, in the us. and that's what's happening. so instead of having your cons that are focused on the us, ukraine more, you know, neil comes, we're focused on eat on and on china. and apparently these are the people that he will appoint and i don't know whether he knows about that or not. but it seems that john mir timers, prediction is coming true that the blog always wins out. yes, the is it, it's, it would seem to be the case here. and you can change the president, but the hedge a monic tendencies are almost impossible to reverse. ok, let's talk about peace plans here. karen is all stairs leaks all over the place. are rumors about what a trunk may propose? i don't think he has a clue of what he wants to do. so, but there seems to be a lot of people i'm thinking about this vague telephone call between trump and

putting the is trying to divert our attention or make us assume about certain pro, uh, dynamics that we deal with the the can be no deal if there is no common understanding about security, and that's the crux of the problem here. karen? yeah, that's true. but the common understanding of the ukraine situation, he does have some people in place of that get that certainly, i mentioned tulsa gavin, but jamie vance also gets it very well. he's following ukraine. so he understands if trump delegates to some of these people to push ukraine off of his uh, front burner, which is what he intends to do. then we are going to see compromise. we're going to see cox communications. and it's going to be based on what actually happened. so i'm hopeful in that regard. but as you said, with the turn, the neil con attitude towards china. in the middle east, we see this persistence. but i will say this, the d. c, establishment is in raged,

they are enraged and they are frightened and that is gonna be a good sign it. but i think in the the, the talk is it's focusing on a ceasefire. now i can understand what, why the ukrainians would want that they are losing. um, i could understand how washington feels that way because that will give them a breather. but that a ceasefire simply is not in the cards. but it, all of the pungent tree on cable tv is talking about a ceasefire. this is done intentionally. it's trying to determine the, the parameters of what some tops could be, which is a non starter for moscow in well, that's likely has to stop. and the night is typically what a cx 5 is basically what it needs to be. is it an actual kind of plan for delivering the piece now let me freaking spoken about getting back to the most 2022 . it's simple agreement. that seems to be a good place to negotiations stop but. but as part of that process of,

of actually having a piece plan and the fighting does actually need to end, because as you say, ukraine is losing on the battlefield. so i think actually that the 2 on me, so the exclusive point and stuff. but also that does need to be a longer term plan that needs to be nice. bush's critical, national security interests. you know, the final big thing with the whole kind of nature to issue is a big goal. and another key area for discussion is what happens with sanctions as a piece of time and thoughts plesco again, when i look at um, um, uh inside or uh, inside baseball form policy, they were actually there all kinds of gravitating to a new minsk agreement, which means $1.00 and $2.00 failed because the western powers failed to fulfill it . russia is not gonna buy immense. 3. no, and russia shouldn't buy a means 3. but at the same time, russia still has an interest to find some sort of way out because the dangerous

right now is the russian lied when the war, but lose the peace. i'm not losing the peace, not losing. what comes next has to be top priority. and unless russia is willing to swallow ukraine whole, which would include the entire western part of ukraine, which would be a pleasing the dispute. that would be a really, really difficult thing to, to, to achieve are impossible. so there needs to be a settlement, a piece of paper that is signed by everybody in order to get to a next stage, which implies that the need to be negotiations, which implies that something's got to get from the side of nato, but also from the side of russia, and that's going to be very tough on russia, i believe because they are there is going to be hard bargaining still involved unless you want to go for old out occupation. yeah, i, i hear you. i don't think the incomplete occupation of ukraine has ever been in the

cards. i mean, that would be this something untenable. anyway, it would, it wouldn't be a garden or any benefits for russian in the short or long term. karen, one of the, one of the industries here also is a, can russia trust these to the next administration? i mean, under trump, i mean, the company is a russian agency, the hoax. but i mean, trump was hard to run russia than any other american president domain. where's the trust? and i want to ask in that because he's a former diplomat. go ahead, karen. yeah, there's, well, there's no trust. and the idea of mimics is, course was real end because the guarantor was germany, which admitted, admitted that this whole thing was a hoax to begin with. so there's no trust. i don't think any nato countries could really be trusted to oversee this. and the truck administration is by, it's very nature, it's kind of reactive, it's kind of a, it's, it's not completely clear where it's going. it's is not necessarily trustworthy in

terms of the soaks who is going to help bring these place. these 2 countries together bring, you know, your crane and russia together, and the other thing is having to deal with, you know, for a long time. zalinski said i will not deal with good now will never deal with boot . and, and now the lensky isn't even a legitimate leader anymore. you know, he's a effective dictator and no country can effectively negotiate with that guy because he is, he doesn't have legitimacy, legal legitimacy as a, a, as a, as a leader. so we've been problem is that i think one of the things they'll look at is, um, will zelinski be replaced with someone that can trust some agency and can come to some sort of settlement? same question to you. and i mean the level of trust that is the, that's really the 1st step to the 1st hurdle as it were here. so i can tell you that the, that level of pressure from here, looking at the west, it's 0. i mean, you, you got to make b a d o, you've got it, you've got, you guys have to come up with something that can be credible because your, your,

your, your record is deplorable. and that's subjectively true. it's just not my opinion go ahead in, you know, i agree and i see back in 2014. so things got very, very by the contents in front of mind. even of us in presidential administration. she told me that actually all the trust gone and it will take a decade to the store trust. and that was in 2014. so the minus sign a little tight, it's going to really, but still trust them both sides and take on the bus inside the united, trusting us, and vice versa. that will be right on time coming chinese have posts, people, but we still have to deal with each other in the here. and now if i came by briefly on the mistake reading, so i slide a kind of a take a different view from count haven't being a place in pest control. so i think he's a little time on risk minutes to agreement for the pot because the americans and the british didn't wanted work. and actually that they really kind of conspire to kind of look sanctions in place and make minsk supported to the sexes policy effectively making sanctions against which appended in the us government was never

invested in misconduct. was invested in showing that means, you know, to failed, and that's indeed what happens. i think, well, you know that, that voice maternity different now is it, if the us administration gets find some sort of need the supply and they'll be going to a level of investment to when it comes to actual trust. yes, you want that to relations between washington, us collapsed during the previous jump administration, you know, weapon supplies to ukraine, undermining the knolls team to pipeline that sort of things that some of talked about on the campaign trail. but that as long as you dive into the dynamics on the hill in dc itself, actually trump did have a pool with payton evenings, right? one of these difficult times met and spoke with peyton. and there was a level of a pool and trust with a small to you between the 2 of them, which means that they can actually trade and discuss and company. i was like wait a little bit right now and i'll stay with them before we go to the break here. i mean, nick diplomacy was criminalized under bite and how do we get away from that?

well, you know, you 100 sending me with the i mean by never spoke to prison once you know, it slipped from the point of the, the little salting i see the pregnancy is basically criminalized on the, on the case side as well. that has been for over that day. yeah. but actually will people advice and trump the site and use it? you know, we have to engage. we have to told new trump to say he has give like shit we paid well, well say well for them, right. so, so let's say, alright, i have to jump in here, we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with the the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the welcome back across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter level true mind you were discussing. you create the ok. let's go back to the pass code kyoto. one of the things that worries me in this interim period here and obviously impacts of being what's going on and ukraine, but also in the greater middle lease the issue of escalation. so i've asked around, it seems to be

a split decision. i tend to think that the by the administration will escalate before trump could come in to de escalate. if that is a, if that is this plan here. but escalation can create political facts on the ground that the next administration just has to inherit. and, and i think we saw how obama tripped up trump when he was coming into office in 2017. i don't know why uh, bite. and wouldn't want to trump up a trip up trump. um before january go ahead plus go. i'm a little bit less worried about that one, because by now it seems as if, though, the pentagon puts a hard stop on the idea of strikes a inside of 3 people, the 2022 russian territory. and that it does depend to go on that actually calls the shots on these decisions. damage. that's got plastic. oh is that apply to the british and the french and the other is a nato. i, i,

i see that this is an option that could happen, but i honestly think that if the american say don't do it, they won't because they are on the shore. they are on the lease. so, and it's only 2 months from now, even the germans will have like these, these elections coming up and mr. merits, who might call me, and he even need for his closest date to do anything is like february or march. i think it's to legal time to do anything that's stupid, although maybe i'm on the rest of the view. it definitely under estimated definitely i think so. who knows? maybe we'll have a november surprise or a december just surprise. can i have an idea and you know, cuz i, i obviously want this conflict and because it's conflict never should have started in the 1st place. there were so many ways to avoid that. and i want to ask all 3 of you this. what about another helsinki?

2 point oh and then pan european security approach. and so, and so instead of just focusing on ukraine, you focus on the entire picture. and by doing that, you can solve that problem. that's in the center of it all. i know what sam dishes, if i told donald trump this, he probably would go for it because he could get a nobel prize. but this is the only way for me because this is the only way to where everybody gets the terms and conditions of security. everybody lines that up, the rest of it can a follow go ahead parent. yeah, i mean that's a great idea. that is a wonderful idea, but the problem we have is nato. well, that's really that, that's their problem. ok. my opinion go ahead. yeah. it's um, no it's, it's a good idea, but when you mentioned nobel prizes you have to remember obama also got one. well that's so that's why trump ones one. okay. oh good point. good point. well in let me throw that to you. i mean, your, your experience diplomat, i mean is it that's,

it's a bold idea. so a lot of moving pieces here, but the goal was very specific. security for everyone. and i think that's the best way to approach this. go ahead in. yeah, because the problem is that the both the opinion and the nice a grouping of deposit from that kind of wider multilateralism actually. and you see what's happening in ukraine, but also in the middle east is representative of the type of diplomacy and phone policy in which western powers went to pick sides and the conflict between one side and the other side. that is completely incompatible with some, a wide, a multitude i sort of products way that the security that'd be stay as individual. and so, unless you can kind of break that central kind of by lateralism to it actually isn't which kind of dominates new when they say one way you kind of phone policy is that you wouldn't be able to kind of get to that point. and in any case, you know, that is being able to take and bug what's happening to, for example,

the bricks mean, where they are actually leading that, that debate, you know, gone, uh, you know, security can a bit lodge in the absence of engagement. why was some pounds, well, pasco, again, helsinki to fully know what's wrong with that idea? i karen's absolutely who rock it is. the nato wouldn't like it. but because of nato, we have this conflict in ukraine and, and so that has to be dealt with here. but if you are approaching the bigger picture may be the way forward in a face saving for everyone involved. absolutely, i mean, you're totally right and he'll say get 2 point. oh is exactly what we need. but the, the side matter of the fact is that the people in charge at the moment that leads into european capitals and in washington don't want that. i'm not sure about the washington anymore because the change might actually, trump in bands might want to go for that. but i'm not sure the blog does. the, the, the thing is that

a neutral ukraine would have been to help. thank you to point out the thing is that in december 2021 rush, i asked for help. so you get 2 point oh with it's draft treaties that he send over . it ross has asked time and again to create a call, a common security structure and time and again was rebuffed and it is, it's really, really horrible. but if you look at it into terms of the cold war, we always had ups and downs where people were like more willing to actually do common, mutually beneficial agreements and less times. and right now we're in the time where they are less likely to do that. because right now the europeans are not able to think off a mutually beneficial solution. they think that anything that is good for russia is necessarily bad for us and anything good for us. and that must be bad for us, that they are 4 days, no common ground. it is. that's stupid. but unfortunately, we're in that kind of mindset, unless we get out of that mindset, there's not going to be a win win solution which we need which helsinki to,

but no or would well care. and the indivisibility of security was a term that was used quite often during the cold war. that was the very basis of the helsinki process. i can remember, well, after the, after the special military operation started a rush, it was a good, it's a guy talking about the individual butyllithium security and the us state department acted like it and never heard the term they probably had the yeah. are we haven't had a diplomat in the, in the american government for some time, then i guess we won't have one for a while to get going. yeah, no, i mean uh if were, if it's true that the putting rubio and as the secretary state, i don't know if that's true or not, but yeah that, that means that it won't go back to trump is trump one, something he'll, he'll try to negotiate it and it's not clear what trump really, you know, trump thinks in the same terms that we're talking about today. but another issue we have to look at is the money. you know, ukraine has been a dump for money,

and many people have been profiting from this for people on this. and you know, us, but also your pin comp, companies and other other states that are close by and um, you know, they have uh uh that money is drying up the wars ending. there's not enough ukrainians. love to die. we've pretty much this project has destroyed the people of ukraine. so the investment potential is really drying up rapidly. and the money people who really drive both the new kinds and the other, the rest of government, which i'm not sure how much is left after the new kinds. but whatever, we have discovery me, it's driven by money. it's driven by the big investors and what they hope to get from something. so they are going to, they're going to be a factor here that we're not talking about um, which is going to accelerate the decision to stop this thing. there's no financial benefit to continuing it and that that sounds very cold because it did all the dead

people, all the destruction of the environment, but just the terrible is the refuge problem. everything, all of this driven by the money people in many ways. well, you know, let me go to in here. i mean, is all wars awful obviously here, but what has been done to ukraine is a crime because this shouldn't have happened this. there were ways around this. ok, this was a conflict that was wanted by washington. i would say by london as well because of their misperceptions of, of russia's abilities and whatnot here. but even is they think about any kind of a piece plan. ukraine doesn't really play a big role in it. so that's again, it's really quite pathetic. go ahead in yeah, the kind is becoming ahold of that come of the status become most of the deep populated over button with huge amounts of debt despite that kind of billions and so, so you can create it from the west and it's becoming like an n t,

a dysfunctional shell in the field state as well as the west and past k on, you know, as normal they increase the focus on the kind of domestic concerns. you know, it has in fact those of us. and so, you know, the only some people really to have suffered from this all you training people in the big in the big scheme of things and, and if you really care about the cranes future choices, then the best way to do that will be to, in the will, it's most trump this point to do well, a pasco, considering the potential, we don't, you know, none of these people have power now, but the names that are being bandied about. um, do you think that there will be a big struggle within the trump administration? and how to move forward, or maybe, you know, from says he has an idea, it was a good campaign slogan as policy. now it, you know, it's brunch time here. but i mean, with the collective wisdom, if these people have any wisdom at all, is that what he's going to rely upon?

and this very good people are good analysts in this administration. now, i mean shady vans has proven time and again with his, with his talks and with his book that he actually has some clue of what is going on . the tools he gathered and others have done so too. but as in every administration, you're going to have different a variety of opinion. and unfortunately, to right now, what we're seeing is that means in terms of pointing more to more people, we know, learning your accounts, we know are a to 0 sum game kind of thinking. and they are, they are unfortunately now probably going to be a majority and they can, they can count on having people in the back. we think like them as well in the, in the bureaucracy. and unless that changes, unless the, the, the, the, the reasonable people can override those guys, i see that the current way forward is going to have a harder time of going forward. and maybe you're going to have a, maybe going to see some change when it comes to ukraine. that's the biggest

challenge for change, but not for your on. if not for china, this one is going to have probably continue the, the, the, the, the titanic is going to continue to drive to work that iceberg when it comes to these 2, which is that health care. and yeah, do you think that this time, next year we'll be talking about a trans piece plan. i would like to think that it was already propose, been implemented internet or is over, you know, it occurs to me to with the way that trump is putting his appointments forward. the really smart people that he is putting in to the various positions are not niel guns and the really stupid people. and i think i'm being objective here, the stupid people. rubio. okay. not too bright. and the other, some of these others, the guy they're putting in for the d o d, i'm not very experienced, very reactive. not exceptionally bright. so these guys are fodder to be fired like well, can i wake and we can, and we can add down this note. i mean, uh,

personnel is policy. after all, we'll see how it unfolds here. the good thing is people are talking about ending the war. that's good. okay, i want to thank my guess in london killed. so any mail, jackson, and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, the next time, remember, prospect, the, [000:00:00;00] the since world war 2,

united states has fostered extremist anti russian prejudices and hatreds among the ukrainian d. as for 10, at least in canada, united states and countries in eastern europe, probably everywhere in the world, it doesn't matter what these groups say or do it will support them if it is, the groups are causing hatred and chaos within the target country. joe again might done choose but who should consecrate deal of the sort of do well as low squares on some of the myself it just means up and it was usually just $50.00. let me see,

i see i use is anyone at anything if there's a religion the the 7 on this capital city see the 2nd slurry of is really strikes within a 24 hour period as it doesn't rescue workers are reported till the 9th, while searching for the 5 years in the countries inc, i saw some videos of post conscription continue to in the across ukraine. the country's defense ministry admitted now given the green lights to mobilize people suffering from h,