the the, the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered on theater. lavelle, canada, trump said he would end that ukraine conflict in 24 hours. well, he's now president elect time to keep that promise. the problem is washington in moscow have radically different ideas about peace and security. the cross, how can you create? i'm joined by my guess, caring, feel called steve in mount jackson. she is a retired us air force. lieutenant colonel, having served at both

n s a and the office of the secretary of defense in london, we have in proud he is a senior british diplomat, an author of misfits in moscow. how british diplomacy and russian failed and killed him. we crossed the passcode no tests. he is an associate professor at the auto university right cross lock roles in effect. that means you can jump any time you want. and i would appreciate before we talk about a, a suppose. suppose a trump piece plan, i'd like to get your reaction from all 3 of you about the recent spouse of appointments that trump is going to bring into his administration. karen, i mean i know that, you know, it, could you some people like coke, some people like pepsi, but it's still colla and then that's my feeling here. karen? yeah, it really is. i mean, he's got a mix of uh, neil cons that we recognize extremely pro israel appointments and then combine was that he has some of the uh, people like tulsa gabbert who have been, uh, tremendous. uh, critics of what's been going on for the past couple decades. so we have

a mix. okay, and how about you? because, i mean, one could say this is all by design. is that um, they'll be a lot of in fighting. maybe that's what trump wants. no one will have to gemini, they'll all have to look to him as the mediator. i mean, you've been in a bureaucracies before what you read on this. well, the obvious conclusion of joint is that jumps the time since by much study tools. and what's happening in the middle east and also a sent me in china and taiwan and apple focus on on ukraine and support for the boy for there is going to be on the studies declined much as he cited in his election campaign. and i'm house go, i mean it's a, he's, it's stress during the campaign and even his victory speech with that he's a man that he wants to create peace and wars with this, with this lot coming in here. they don't seem very piece driven to me, pasco, you know, and i agree and tend,

is owens one of those famous news anchors into us. she already put out an emergency message to trumps saying like you are being subverted by the, the, the less or no neil collins in, in, in the us. and that's what's happening. so instead of having your cons that are focused on the us ukraine, more you have, neil comes, we're focused on eat on and on china. and apparently these are the people that he will appoint and i don't know whether he knows about that or not. but it seems that john mir timers, prediction is coming true that the blog always wins out. yes we are. is it, it's, it would seem to be the case here if you can change the president. but the hedge a monic tendencies are almost impossible to reverse. ok, let's talk about peace plans here. karen is all stairs leaks all over the place that are rumors about what a trunk may propose. i don't think he has a clue of what he wants to do. so, but there seems to be

a lot of people. i'm thinking about this vague telephone call between trump and putting the is trying to divert our attention or make us assume about certain pro, uh, dynamics that we deal with the there can be no deal if there is no common understanding about security. and that's the crux of the problem here. karen? yeah, that's true. but the common understanding of the ukraine situation, he does have some people in place that get that. certainly. uh, i mentioned tulsa gavin, but jamie vance also gets it very well. he's following ukraine. so he understands if trump delegates to some of these people to push ukraine off of his uh, front burner, which is what he intends to do. then we are going to see compromise. we're going to see cox communications. and it's going to be based on what actually happened. so i'm hopeful in that regard. but as you said, with the term, the neil con attitude towards china. in the middle east, we see this for assistance, but i will say this. the d. c,

establishment is enraged, they are enraged and they are frightened and that is got to be a good sign it. but i think in the the, the talk is it's focusing on a ceasefire. now i could understand what, why the ukrainians would want that they are losing. i could understand how washington feels that way because that will give them a breather. but that a ceasefire simply is not in the cards, but it all of the pungent tree on cable tv is talking about a cease fire. this is done intentionally. it's trying to determine the, the parameters of what some talks could be, which is a non starter for moscow in well, that's likely has to stop in tonight has to be able to see 5 years back see what the needs to be. is it an actual kind of plan for delivering the piece now? maybe we can spoken about getting back to the march 20. 22 is simple agreement. that seems to be a good place to negotiations stop but,

but his pause that places of, of actually having a peace plan and the fighting does actually need to end. because as you say, you kind is losing on the battlefield. so i think actually that the 2 own measly exclusive pointing start, but also that does need to be a long term 5. that needs to be nice. bush's critical, national security interests. you know, the final big thing with a whole kind of nature issue is a big goal. and another key area for discussed is what happens with sanctions as a piece plan unfolds a plus go again. when i look at um, um, uh inside or uh, inside baseball form policy. um they were actually there all kinds of gravitating to a new minsk agreement, which means one and 2 fail because the western powers failed to fulfill it. russia is not going to buy a mince 3. no, i rush, i shouldn't buy. it means 3. but at the same time, russia still has an interest to find some sort of way out. because the danger right

now is that russia might win the war, but lose the piece. i'm not losing the piece, not losing. what comes next has to be top priority. and unless russia is willing to swallow ukraine ho, which would include the entire western part of ukraine, which would be a place in the dispute. that would be a really, really difficult thing to, to, to achieve are impossible. so there needs to be a settlement, a piece of paper that is signed by everybody in order to get to a next stage, which implies that the need to be negotiations, which implies that something's got to get from the side of nato, but also from the side of russia, and that's going to be very tough on russia, i believe because they are there is going to be hard bargaining still involved unless you want to go for old out occupation. yeah, i, i hear you. i don't think the incomplete occupation of ukraine has ever been in the

cards. i mean, that would be this something untenable. anyway, and it would, it wouldn't be a garden or any benefits for russian in the short or long term. karen, one of the is one of the industries here also is a, can russia trust these to the next administration? i mean, under trump, i mean, trump was a russian agency. the hoax. but i mean, trump was hard run russia than any other american president to mean? where's the trust? and i want to ask in that because he's a former diplomat. go ahead parent. yeah, there's, well, there's no trust. and the idea of mimics is, course was really into because the guarantor was germany, which admitted, admitted that this whole thing was a hoax to begin with. so there's no trust. i don't think any nato countries could really be trusted to oversee this. and the truck administration is by, it's very nature, it's kind of reactive, it's kind of a, it's, it's not complete really clear where it's going. it is not necessarily trustworthy

in terms of it. so who is going to help bring these place? these 2 countries together bring, you know, your crane and russia together and the other thing is having to deal with, you know, for a long time, zalinski said i will not deal with code. no one ever deal with boot. and, and now zaleski isn't even a legitimate leader anymore. you know, he's a effective dictator and no country can effectively negotiate with that guy because he is, he doesn't have legitimacy, legal legitimacy as a, a, as a, as a leader. so we've been problem is that i think one of the things they'll look at is some will zelinski be replaced with someone that can trust some agency and can come to some sort of settlement. same question to you. and i mean the level of trust that is we, that's through the 1st step to the 1st hurdle as it were here. so i can tell you that the, that level of pressure from here, looking at the west, it's 0. i mean, you, you gotta make b a d o you've got to can, you've got,

you guys have to come up with something that can be credible because your, your, your, your record is deplorable. and that's subjectively true. it's, it's not my opinion. go ahead in, you know, i agree and i see back in 24 team. so things got very, very by the contents in front of mind. even of us in presidential administration. she told me that actually all the trust the gone and it will take a decade to the store trust. and that was in 2014. so the minus sign to take, it's going to be the best solar trust on both sides and take on the bus inside the gate, trusting us, and vice versa that will be right on time coming chinese post the mole. but we still have to deal with each other in the here. and now if i came back briefly on the mist agreements, i slide a kind of a take a different view from count, haven't the place in personal tools. i think he's a little time on risk minutes to agreement for the pot because the americans and the british didn't want to work. and actually that they really kind of conspire to kind of put sanctions in place and make minsk supported to the sexes policy

effectively making sanctions against which appended in the us. government was never invested in minsk, in fact, was invested in showing that means, you know, to failed. and that's indeed what happens. i think, well, you know that, that voice maternity different now is it, if the us administration gets find some sort of need piece plan that will be going to a level of investments in it when it comes to actual trust? yes, you like the relationship between washington us collapsed during the previous jump administration, you know, weapon supplies to ukraine, undermining the nose team to pipeline. that sort of things that some of talked about on the campaign trail. but that as long as you down to the dynamics on the hill in dc itself, actually trump did have a pool with peyton evens, right? one of these difficult times met and spoke with peyton. and there was a level of a pool and trust with this multi between the 2 of them, which means that they can actually trade and discuss and come to the right now. and

they'll say with in, before we go to the break here. i mean, the diplomacy was criminalized under bite and how do we get away from that as well? you know, you 100 percent agree with you. i mean by and never spoke to prison once in a foot from the point of the will starting. i see diplomacy is basically criminalize on the case side as well. that has been able to pay. yeah. but actually will people have violence and trump the site and use that? you know, we have to engage. we have to told new trump to say he has a duplex that we paid well, well say, well ma'am, right? so, so let's say, alright, i have to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with the the,

to take a fresh look around as a life kaleidoscopic. isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions fixtures, design to simplify. it will confuse who really wants a better wills, and is it just as a chosen for you? fractured images presented as fast. can you see through their illusion going underground again? the welcome back across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. true mind you were discussing, you create the ok. let's go back to pasco, in kyoto. one of the things that worries me in this interim period here and

obviously impacts of what's going on in ukraine, but also in the greater middle lease the issue of escalation. so i've asked around, it seems to be a split decision. i tend to think that the by the administration will escalate before trump could come in to de escalate. if that is a, if that is his plan here. but escalation can create political facts on the ground that the next administration just has to inherit. and i think we saw how obama tripped up trump when he was coming into office in 2017. i don't know why uh, bite and wouldn't want to trump up a trip up trump uh before january. go ahead passcode. i'm a little bit less worried about that one, because by now it seems as if, though, the pentagon puts a hard stop on the idea of strikes a inside of 3 people, the 2022 russian territory. and that it does depend to go on

that actually calls the shots on these decisions. damage. that's got plastic. oh is that apply to the british and the french and the other is a nato. i, i, i see that this is an option that could happen, but i honestly think that if the american say don't do it, they won't because they are on the shore. they are on the lease. so, and it's only 2 months from now, even the germans will have like these, these elections coming up and mr. merits, who might come in, he even need for his closest date to do anything is like february or march. i think it's too little time to do anything that's stupid, although maybe i'm on the right from the view. definitely under estimating. definitely. i think so. who knows? maybe we'll have a november surprise or a december just surprise to and i have an idea and you know, cuz i, i obviously want this conflict and because it's conflict never should have started

in the 1st place. there were so many ways to avoid it. and i want to ask all 3 of you this. what about another helsinki? 2 point. oh and then pan european security approach. and so, and so instead of just focusing on ukraine, you focus on the entire picture. and by doing that, you can solve that problem. that's in the center of it all. i know what sam dishes . if i told donald trump this, he probably would go for it because he could get a nobel prize. but this is the only way for because this is the only way to where everybody gets the terms and conditions of security. everybody lines that up the rest of it can a follow go ahead parent. yeah, i mean, that's a great idea. that is a wonderful idea, but the problem we have is nato. well, that's really that, that's their problem. okay. my opinion, go ahead. yeah. it's, um, no, it's, it's a good idea. um, but when you mentioned nobel prizes you have to remember obama also got one. well

that's so that's why trump wants one. okay. oh good point. good point. well in let me throw that to you. i mean, your, your experience diplomat, i mean is that it's a bold idea. um, a lot of moving pieces here. but the goal was very specific. security for everyone . and i think that's the best way to approach this. go ahead in. yeah, and because the problem is that the both the opinion and the nights, a creepy of deposited from that kind of wider multilateralism actually. and you see what's happening in ukraine. brutal sit in the middle east is representative of a type of diplomacy and phone policy which west impossible to pick sides and the conflict between one side and the other side by is completely incompatible with some a wide and multinational a page way. security that be studies individual. and so, unless you can kind of break that central kind of by lateralism to lateralism,

which kind of dominates the way they say one way you kind of phone policy is that you wouldn't be able to kind of get to that point. and in any case, you know, that is being overtaken by what's happening to, for example, the bricks, meaning where they are actually leading that, that to bite, you know, bone. uh, you know, security can a bit large in the absence of engagement with some pounds. well, pass, go again helsinki to point know what's wrong with that idea. i karen's absolutely iraq. it is the nature wouldn't like it, but because of nature, we have this conflict in ukraine and, and so that has to be dealt with here. but if you are approaching the bigger picture may be the way forward in a face saving for everyone involved. absolutely, i mean, you're totally right and he'll say get 2 point. oh is exactly what we need. but the, the side matter of the fact is that the people in charge at the moment that leads into european capitals adding washington don't want that. i'm not sure about the

washington anymore because the change might actually, trump in bands might want to go for that. but i'm not sure to block, does the, the, the thing is that a neutral you, craig would have been to help. thank you. to point out the thing is that in december 2021 rush i asked for help. so you get 2 point oh with it's draft reduce that he send over. it ross has asked time and again to create a call, a common security structure and time and again was rebuffed and it is, it's really, really horrible. but if you look at it into terms of the cold war, we always had ups and downs where people were like more willing to actually do common, mutually beneficial agreements and less times. and right now we're in the time where they are less likely to do that. because right now the europeans are not able to think off a mutually beneficial solution. they think that anything that is good for russia is necessarily bad for us and anything good for us and that must be bad for rush out there for there is no common ground. it is. that's stupid. but unfortunately,

we're in that kind of mindset, unless we get out of that mindset, there's not going to be a win win solution which we need which helsinki to, but no, oh would well care and the indivisibility of security was a term that was used quite often during the cold war, that was the very basis of the helsinki process. i can remember, well, after the, after the special military operation started a rush, it was a good, it's a guy talking about the individual butyllithium security. and the us state department acted like it. and never heard the term they probably had the yeah. are we haven't had a diplomat in the, in the american government for some time then i guess we won't have one for a while to keep going. yeah, no, i mean uh if were, if it's true that they're putting rubio in as the secretary state, i don't know if that's true or not, but yeah that, that means that it won't go back to trump is trump one, something he'll,

he'll try to negotiate it and it's not clear what trump really, you know, trump thinks in the same terms that we're talking about today. but another issue we have to look at is the money. you know, ukraine has been a dump for money, and many people have been profiting from this for people in this and, you know, us, but also your pin comp, companies and other other states that are close by and um, you know, they have uh uh that money is drying up the wars ending, there's not enough ukrainians. love to die, we've pretty much this project has destroyed the people of ukraine. so the investment potential is really drying up rapidly. and the money people who really drive both the new kinds and the other, the rest of government, which i'm not sure how much is left after the new kinds. but whatever we have this government's driven by money, it's driven by the big investors. and what they hope to get from something so that they are going to, they're going to be a factor here that we're not talking about,

which is going to accelerate the decision to stop this thing. so there's no financial benefit to continuing it. and that, that sounds very cold because it did all the dead people, all the destruction of the environment. but just the terrible yes, the rescue problem, everything. all of this driven by the money people in many ways. well, you know, let me go to in here. i mean, is a whole war is awful, obviously here, but what has been done to ukraine is a crime because this shouldn't have happened this. there were ways around this. ok . this was a complex that was wanted by washington. i would say by london as well. because of their misperceptions of brushes, abilities, and what not here, but even as they think about any kind of a piece plan, ukraine doesn't really play a big role in it. so that's again, it's really quite pathetic. go ahead and yeah, the client is becoming ahold of that come out of the state. this become must be

populated over button with huge amounts of debt despite it going to billions. and so, so you can create it from the west and it's becoming like an empty dysfunctional, a shell in the filed state, as well as the west. and pascal and you know, as normal they increase the focus on the kind of domestic concerns. it has, in fact does have options. so you know, the needs of people, bailey, to have suffered from this. all you training people in the big in the big scheme of things. and if you really care about the cranes, if you do to a choices, then the best way to do that will be to end the will. and tomorrow's trump this point to do well, a pasco, considering the potential, we don't, you know, none of these people have power now, but the names that are being bandied about the will you think that there will be a big struggle within the trump administration and how to move forward, or maybe, you know, from says he has an idea, it was a good campaign slogan as policy. now it, you know,

it's punch time here. but i mean, with the collective wisdom, if these people have any wisdom at all, is that what he's going to rely upon? and that's very good. people are good analysts in this administration. now. i mean, chevy vans has proven time. and again, with his, with his talks and with his book that he actually has some clue of what is going on till c, gabbert and others have done so too. but as in every administration, you're going to have different a variety of opinion. and unfortunately, right now what we're seeing is that mr. trump is appointing more and more people. we know, learning your colleagues, we know are a to 0 sum game kind of thinking and they are, they are unfortunately now probably going to be a majority and they can, they can count on having people in the back would think like them as well in the in the bureaucracy and unless that changes, unless the, the, the, the,

the reasonable people can override those guys. i see that the current way forward is going to have a harder time of going forward. and maybe you're going to have a, maybe going to see some change when it comes to ukraine. that's the biggest challenge for change, but not for a year on, if not for china. this one is going to probably continue the, the, the, the, the titanic is going to continue to drive to work that iceberg when it comes to these 2, which is sad, health care. and yeah, do you think that this time, next year we'll be talking about a trans piece plan. i would like to think that was already propose been implemented and that was over. you know, it occurs to me to, with the way that trump is putting his appointments forward to the really smart people. but he is putting in to the various positions are not new kinds and the really stupid people. and i think i'm being objective, here's the stupid people. rubio. okay. not to break of the of some of these others

is the guy they're putting in for the d o. d, i'm not very experience. very reactive. not exceptionally bright. so these guys are fodder to be fired like well can i like wake and we can and we can add down this note. i mean, personnel is policy. after all, we'll see how it unfolds here. the good thing is people are talking about ending the war. that's good. okay, i want to thank my guess in london, killed so, and in mount jackson. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, the next time, remember, prospect the, [000:00:00;00]

the, [000:00:00;00] the, i'm action or it has a welcome back to going underground rule, cussing around the world from the you a, i mean steaming a major defeat and ukraine, the continuing u. k u. s. and you, i'm doing vision of lebanon bombing of syria, iraq in yemen. and the, and i lation of guys are powerless for now. we're drip fed leaks about who will serve and the trump administration. the promise to end the usa is for ever was crucial to trumps victory windows in the, the american working classes of all colors we sub and you as well as of regression

. but that are of americans, the soul of holocaust, garetsville what she was joining me now from washington dc as president trump for the deputy assistant when he was lost in the white house. doctor sebastian gulker is now hosting the goal. could reality check in the board cost america of us don't go ok. you know, we lost our k junior's ex chief of staff that is goosenich and the loan musk through the files. collaborated with a match i. e. b. so we're going to have to ask you before we talk about the issues, if you had the call from the trump administration, we had the phone go. yes, i mean, you were the deputy assistant last time. i've had several phone calls, but i'm not going to talk about them because it would be um, an appropriate obviously, but i, so i was with the president on election day. so that's public. you can read my article by subsidize the, the photographs, and we're still living the dream in the last week. and. okay, well let's go to this uh, russian derangement syndrome, the plague, the 1st time,

all the lies that was spread the russia hoax and so on. what about these new appointees it so far have been announced, who seemed to swallow a lot of the rush hoax elements. don't all of them, notably, know the news big for c, i a who clearly illuminated the fact they will hoax isn't the 1st place, but some of them less. so is it going to be a debate the can they will be trusted, or is the deep state looking in already the appointments that have been events or no, been nation's independent as well. i don't know who you're talking about. um, well who, who, who is, who is promoting the russell hugs? i will certainly p takes it was uh no. how about no, no, no, no, no, no, no. uh, are you kidding me? no i i p p the heck stuff has been chosen for one very simple reason is a combat veteran to run stuff as who is absolutely horrified,

just read his last book totally beside himself with the work verification of the american military. the fact of the greatest of forces in the world haven't won a war since 1991, so he's coming into excited don't with the style pool, but with the strategy, the work left wing and to american lunacy a, b, e. i. critical race, very from inside the military and get us back to where we were a nation that is the most powerful in the world and that believes in itself and look, there's one metric i'm not interested in what somebody said years ago. remember, the vice president elect, j the vance was no sign of my for my boss. president trump. quite the contrary. however, he has admitted and he is apologized that he was brainwashed. indoctrinated by the propaganda of the main stream media and has proven himself in the last 2 years is one of the most america 1st mega senators in the house of yeah,